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Abertay student faces expulsion in row over ‘women have vaginas’ comment

TSwizzle

I am unburdened by what has been.
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Return of the Dark Ages;

A law student who said women have vaginas and are not as physically strong as men is being investigated by Abertay University. Disciplinary action is being taken against Lisa Keogh, 29, over “offensive” and “discriminatory” comments that she made during lectures at the Dundee-based university.

The mature final-year student told the Times she was reported by younger classmates after she said women were born with female genitals and that “the difference in physical strength of men versus women is a fact”.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...lsion-in-row-over-women-have-vaginas-comment/

What a sorry state of affairs.
 
Return of the Dark Ages;

A law student who said women have vaginas and are not as physically strong as men is being investigated by Abertay University. Disciplinary action is being taken against Lisa Keogh, 29, over “offensive” and “discriminatory” comments that she made during lectures at the Dundee-based university.

The mature final-year student told the Times she was reported by younger classmates after she said women were born with female genitals and that “the difference in physical strength of men versus women is a fact”.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...lsion-in-row-over-women-have-vaginas-comment/

What a sorry state of affairs.

From the university (emphasis mine)

A statement from Abertay said: “To be absolutely clear, freedom of speech within the law is not only permitted at Abertay but is strongly encouraged.
“All universities should be places where controversial, challenging or even upsetting issues can be debated in a constructive and collegial way.
“The university does not comment on student disciplinary cases and is duty bound to investigate any complaints received.”

Given Scotland has a modern blasphemy law in place under Witchfinder-General Humza Yousaf, it frankly isn't even clear to me that what the student said would be 'within the law'.

The best possible outcome I can see for this is that, the university, as it says it must, investigates the complaint--then clears the student of the idiotic charges and makes it clear that uttering biological facts are not transphobic nor should they invite disciplinary reviews.

Even if that outcome is achieved, the complaint still speaks to both the number of and power of the emboldened trans ideology radicals.

And brava to Joanna Cherry QC, the SNP MP for Edinburgh South West and deputy chairwoman of the Lords and Commons joint committee on human rights, who labelled the investigation farcical. It takes bravery to stand up to her own party's line on trans ideology.
 
This is a great example of reporters spinning a probably nothing event into an article that melts snowflakes.

The university is obliged to investigate all complaints. The university got a complaint. The university is investigating the complaint. These are the facts so far.

Let me know if something actually substantial happens.
 
Man this is a reach. "investigating a complaint", is the same as facing expulsion now? Fuck, the woman was lucky she wasn't charged with warcrimes going by TSwizzle's carrying on. What a fucking slow news day. I guess some people need to be outraged just to get hard.
 
This is a great example of reporters spinning a probably nothing event into an article that melts snowflakes.

The university is obliged to investigate all complaints. The university got a complaint. The university is investigating the complaint. These are the facts so far.

Let me know if something actually substantial happens.

It may be a nothing event to you but how is it a nothing event to the student ? The student is being investigated for wrong think and could be suspended or expelled because a few snowflakes can't deal with reality and a faculty that will indulge them.
 
This is a great example of reporters spinning a probably nothing event into an article that melts snowflakes.

The university is obliged to investigate all complaints. The university got a complaint. The university is investigating the complaint. These are the facts so far.

Let me know if something actually substantial happens.

It may be a nothing event to you but how is it a nothing event to the student ? The student is being investigated for wrong think and could be suspended or expelled because a few snowflakes can't deal with reality and a faculty that will indulge them.
"Snowflakes can't deal with reality" says a guy who's living in a complete fantasy land spun for him by the gutter press...
 
This is a great example of reporters spinning a probably nothing event into an article that melts snowflakes.

The university is obliged to investigate all complaints. The university got a complaint. The university is investigating the complaint. These are the facts so far.

Let me know if something actually substantial happens.

It may be a nothing event to you but how is it a nothing event to the student ? The student is being investigated for wrong think and could be suspended or expelled because a few snowflakes can't deal with reality and a faculty that will indulge them.
"Snowflakes can't deal with reality" says a guy who's living in a complete fantasy land spun for him by the gutter press...

It amazes me how preoccupied conservoflakes are with manufactured petty grievances. Especially if genitalia are involved. They never seem to run out of trivial tragedies to wring their hands over.
The "gutter press" (well named, Poli!) is increasingly desperate these days to keep feeding their idiots stuff, to keep them from looking at any of the real problems that their type have created... like insane mobs of their brethren in stupidity, doing the bidding of their insane president, trying to overturn an American Presidential election.
"Oh NOOooo! Looky here! Someone said something that should offend you! And it's about VAGINAS!!!"

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:
 
TSwizzle said:
It may be a nothing event to you but how is it a nothing event to the student ? The student is being investigated for wrong think and could be suspended or expelled because a few snowflakes can't deal with reality and a faculty that will indulge them.
Don't have a meltdown, snowflake. Someone filed a complaint. Let's see what happens to see if a meltdown is necessary.
 
FAKE NEWS

The article starts with a flashy title that if you read the article you can see is about 10% of the things she claims she said. Moreover, 90% of this article was devoted to the lady's side of the story, didn't say anything about the exact context in which she said things probably for a reason, and the University denies this is how it went down. The University is bound by law not to discuss specifics of students attending and so cannot defend itself with specifics, but the article also did not tell the other side of the story from students. Another article hits some other topics and also says that Keogh herself said that other students said she said women were the weaker sex and called them "man-hating feminists." So it is clear right from the get-go of reading the catchy title and article that it isn't telling the whole story. Regardless of who is right or wrong, the university also says it is required by law to investigate all complaints and so of course she is being investigated after other students complained of harassment such as calling them man-hating feminists and we don't know what else. There's also no evidence she is even being considered for expulsion since the university cannot comment. This is a case of someone going over the top during class hours saying harassing things (probably) and then going to the media screaming, "Help, I'm going to be expelled from school for saying women have vaginas!!!11!" I will add that I bet also at least one of the other students said something that could be construed as harassing to her as well. And that just underscores the fact we are not hearing the full story from screamingly paranoid conservative press and that this is a thing that will blow over. So calm down.
 
News articles these days are often designed to focus on one side of the story in order to appeal to an ideological target group that the niche news business specializes in targeting. This article is no different.
 
News articles these days are often designed to focus on one side of the story in order to appeal to an ideological target group that the niche news business specializes in targeting. This article is no different.

True. My response was the fact that you had, in large bold letters, declared it FAKE NEWS, only to go on and say it was, basically, questionable and one sided. That doesn't necessarily make it FAKE. Later on, if/when all the facts come out and the whole thing is debunked, then you can come out and call it FAKE NEWS.
 
... you had, in large bold letters, declared it FAKE NEWS, only to go on and say it was, basically, questionable and one sided. That doesn't necessarily make it FAKE.

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if everything labeled (or loudly declared) "fake news" turned out that way?
Oh, wait. Never mind.
 
... you had, in large bold letters, declared it FAKE NEWS, only to go on and say it was, basically, questionable and one sided. That doesn't necessarily make it FAKE.

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if everything labeled (or loudly declared) "fake news" turned out that way?
Oh, wait. Never mind.

"Fake news" is just newspeak for "propaganda", but designed in such a way (in classic newspeak fashion) to be applied selectively; this is the argument it is usually followed up by "prove it is (absolutely) fake!"

Assuming a Good Faith against Bad Faith, this allows BF to simply not respond to allegations, and GF flounders with the desire to defend their use of what is a Newspeak term as the old language falls out of fashion.

The proper response is to tell them "Don't call shit 'fake news', th word is propaganda and if you keep using Newspeak I shall slap you silly"

And then call their shit rank propaganda as it very much is.
 
News articles these days are often designed to focus on one side of the story in order to appeal to an ideological target group that the niche news business specializes in targeting. This article is no different.

True. My response was the fact that you had, in large bold letters, declared it FAKE NEWS, only to go on and say it was, basically, questionable and one sided. That doesn't necessarily make it FAKE. Later on, if/when all the facts come out and the whole thing is debunked, then you can come out and call it FAKE NEWS.

No, that it is NOT what I wrote. I did not write that it was MERELY one-sided. Nice try, though. I wrote that the title was INCONSISTENT with the article because the title says "because X,"[1] but the article claims "because X and Y."[2] Therefore, it is FAKE NEWS.

* FULL STOP * It's therefore already proved to be fake news. (A)

Now in addition to being fake news for that reason, there is EVEN MORE to the story because the University says she is making false claims. And besides this as I point out because of another article she told how students claimed she was saying harassing things to them.[3] Therefore, their complaints to the University would be about harassment such as that in total would include trans harassment, women harassment, political harassment, at a minimum. That's a logical inference (B). We do not know what else (C).

So to review for you, it's fake news because of a deliberately incomplete title lying by omission, and by inference it's also fake news because it doesn't tell the whole story even after including other things she said a second lie by omission, and PERHAPS there are other things but that part (C) does not make it certain to be fake news.

Reporting 90% what one side claims, though, also deserves criticism and ADDS to the wrongness of the article. A balanced article should interview both sides and give both stories. When it uses a flashy title lying by omission, it's also fake.

Here is an exercise for you:

Imagine this was the other way around, a news article entitled "Woman may get expelled for saying man raped her," but when you read the article you find out that she also said that "all men who sleep with a woman after a drunken party are rapists," and the article quotes and paraphrases her claims and side of the story for 10 paragraphs, leaving 1 paragraph to the university's no comment comment and never interviews the accused male or explains his side of the story.

Then you read a DIFFERENT article that says white male christian students on campus also complained that she said "white people are all demons" in the middle of class. Then, you find out that the university is obligated to take all complaints from students and so you would conclude that the original article was fake news.

So if you want to be principled you need to also concede the op article is fake news, too. Don't be inconsistent and unprincipled.

[1] The title of the article is "Abertay student faces expulsion in row over ‘women have vaginas’ comment."
[2] The content of the article states multiple plural comments were cause for issue: "women have vaginas and are not as physically strong as men."
[3] She claims that students complained she said women were the "weaker sex" and calling other students "man-hating feminists."
 
There is a Daily Mail article that covers just a little more of what the University has to say about this issue and since so much coverage has been given to what Keogh has said, I'm pasting just the sections of what Abertay says.

MailOnline understands ... that the case may refer to other 'behavioural' aspects of the Code of Student Discipline which covers everything from minor anti-social behaviour to harassment of other university members.

...

A spokesperson for Abertay University said: 'Under normal circumstances, the University does not comment on student disciplinary cases, however it has become necessary to correct inaccurate claims and reporting.

'To be clear, all Abertay students are free to express their views on campus, as long as this is not done in an intolerant or abusive way which would breach our Code of Student Discipline.

'Press reporting and social media commentary around this case has centred around gender issues and statements such as "women have vaginas" and "men have penises", which are lawful statements and would categorically not lead to any University misconduct investigation, if expressed on campus in a reasonable manner.

'Our Code of Student Discipline does not police freedom of speech or the nature of views put forward during classroom discussion or debate.

'It exists to provide a framework within which disruptive, aggressive or abusive behaviour that makes fair and robust debate or classroom learning impossible can be identified and stopped.

'We believe that all universities should uphold freedom of speech within the law and we are proud that Abertay is a place where difficult and controversial debate can take place within an academic environment.

'Scottish universities are required by law to investigate all complaints, whether by students, staff or members of the public.

'We are deeply saddened by the online abuse that has been aimed at our students and staff members as a direct result of the misreporting of this case in some sections of the press and conjecture on social media.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...formal-disciplinary-action-gender-debate.html
 
The latest Courier article is more balanced as it gives perspectives from Keogh, the opposing students, and the university. It also isn't fake news because it is not repeatedly lying by omission. Even though the latest doesn't include Keogh throwing insults like "man-hating feminists," it does explain the general side of the students' perspectives as well of harassment and Keogh being disruptive over weeks:
the students said:
"The complaint from the class did not come about from instances of transphobia in isolation, rather were due to a pattern of off-topic, harmful contributions, occurring over a period of several weeks."

Now, I want to point out again that one could nearly infer this from the multiple biased conservative news stories covering this issue. This is because the op article implied in a sneaky way by the title that Keogh was in trouble for just saying "women had vaginas" and many other conservative outlets said the same thing in their news titles using more causative language sometimes and other times using sneaky ways to get the reader to fallaciously infer it, like "student in danger of expulsion after saying such-and-such" to trick the reader into thinking this was the only thing involved. But then when you read the contents of many of the conservative articles you see them talking about multiple things she said that got her into a disciplinary investigation. One article for example says she was in trouble for comments that included a and b....they don't even mention any other comments but one can logically infer there are more than 2 or it'd be superfluous to write "comments that included a and b."...and so they were hiding those comments and cherry-picking the ones that sounded best for their audiences. We know they knew about the other comments because one of the other conservative articles mentioned the insult about "man-hating feminists." Now the students are actually being interviewed in the press and explain that there were way more than just a few comments since it went on for weeks according to them in their complaint.
 
Now, I want to point out again that one could nearly infer this from the multiple biased conservative news stories covering this issue. This is because the op article implied in a sneaky way by the title that Keogh was in trouble for just saying "women had vaginas" and many other conservative outlets said the same thing in their news titles using more causative language sometimes and other times using sneaky ways to get the reader to fallaciously infer it, like "student in danger of expulsion after saying such-and-such" to trick the reader into thinking this was the only thing involved.

In other words, you are accusing 'conservative' news outlets of using clickbait headlines, like 99% of the rest of the press.

But then when you read the contents of many of the conservative articles you see them talking about multiple things she said that got her into a disciplinary investigation. One article for example says she was in trouble for comments that included a and b....they don't even mention any other comments but one can logically infer there are more than 2 or it'd be superfluous to write "comments that included a and b."...and so they were hiding those comments and cherry-picking the ones that sounded best for their audiences.

You do not know what they knew or didn't know, and you read their mind when you attribute the motive 'hiding' on deciding what to include in the article.
 
Now, I want to point out again that one could nearly infer this from the multiple biased conservative news stories covering this issue. This is because the op article implied in a sneaky way by the title that Keogh was in trouble for just saying "women had vaginas" and many other conservative outlets said the same thing in their news titles using more causative language sometimes and other times using sneaky ways to get the reader to fallaciously infer it, like "student in danger of expulsion after saying such-and-such" to trick the reader into thinking this was the only thing involved.

In other words, you are accusing 'conservative' news outlets of using clickbait headlines, like 99% of the rest of the press.

No, not 99% AND no, not just the title, but also the content. Get it right before responding.

But then when you read the contents of many of the conservative articles you see them talking about multiple things she said that got her into a disciplinary investigation. One article for example says she was in trouble for comments that included a and b....they don't even mention any other comments but one can logically infer there are more than 2 or it'd be superfluous to write "comments that included a and b."...and so they were hiding those comments and cherry-picking the ones that sounded best for their audiences.

You do not know what they knew or didn't know, and you read their mind when you attribute the motive 'hiding' on deciding what to include in the article.

They have the same information from her interview but refused to report it.
 
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