Aboriginal Civil Disobedience

[Gospel]

It's hard for me to be angry with the people who burned it down because I sympathize with their reason.

So it's hard for you be angry with the people who burned down the churches of Native American people because you sympathize with people who hate them?

That's what you're saying here.
Tom

I have no more interest in continuing this discussion with you until you at least attempt to explain in better detail how what I said means what you think I said.

 

[Gospel]

It's your neurotransmitters not the thread.

Show me why I should believe that.
Tom

So you can materialize another meaning out of thin air? No thanks.

 

[laughing dog]

What, does the circumstance that many of the local Metis converted to the oppressors' religion make their descendants hereditary race traitors who don't qualify to have an equal say over who has permission to have a building on the tribal lands of First Nations people?

That's what this thread is mostly about. Hating Catholics.

If child mortality rates in the 19th century doesn't work, switch to grave markers. If grave markers don't work, switch to parental notifications.

If your goal is to hate Catholic people you'll find a way.
Tom

If your goal is to minimize the damage the Catholic Church has inflicted, you will fling all sort of nonsense to deflect from the discussion.

No one in this thread has advocated burning down these churches. No one. All that some people have done is to acknowledge that they don't have any sympathy for the Catholic Church on this issue.

This nothing to do with the Holocaust and burning houses of Holocaust deniers. It has nothing whatsover with the "whataboutisms" of mistreatment of other ethnic minorities in other countries.

 

[Toni]

I'm missing the part where anyone hates anyone else?

Reread the thread.
Hatred of Catholics is all over the place.
Tom

I don't see that at all. This is generally an atheist forum so most people posting are not terribly inclined to love any church.

Within this thread, I see a lot of anti-Catholic Church sentiment, not because of any issues of faith but more because of some of the church's stances --anti-abortion, anti-LGBTQ, kidnapping children and forcing them to attend residential schools where they faced a great deal of abuse, were not allowed to speak their own language, practice their own religion or culture, see their parents or family--that sort of thing. Only the last is featured in this thread and since it's the topic of discussion, I think it's pertinent.

FWIW, I think that exactly the same sentiments would be expressed if the institution which kidnapped children, etc. were Methodist or LDS or Baptist or Lutheran. I can only imagine if the institutions had been Jewish or Muslim...

In particular, Gospel hasn't written anything that appears anti-Catholic or to express hatred of Catholics, Catholicism or the Catholic Church. So I'm a little confused by your assertion.

 

[Lion IRC]

Within this thread, I see a lot of anti-Catholic Church sentiment...

Yeah. Me too.
And, arguably, a few statements that might constitute incitement to violence in certain jurisdictions.

If an anti-abortionist said the same sort of things about fire bombing abortion clinics they would get a visit from law enforcement. And rightly so.

In Victoria, pursuant to section 321G of Victoria’s Crimes Act, where a person incites any other person to pursue conduct that will involve the commission of an offence, if it is acted on in accordance with the intention of the inciter, the inciter is guilty of an offence.

 

[TomC]

It's your neurotransmitters not the thread.

Show me why I should believe that.
Tom

So you can materialize another meaning out of thin air? No thanks.

Do you think black folks have a right to choose the religion of slavers? And remain safe from arson?

Really, I have trouble understanding why people who are the descendants of white EuroColonialist slaves adopt the religion of the slavers. But they do, in droves.


I don't think that torching their houses of worship is OK either. I don't believe in collective punishment. I don't think that anybody has a right to punish people for belonging to a religion that they hate.

I have little interest in anybody's house of worship. I'm not a theist. But I do believe in having the same moral code for everyone. Burning down somebody else's house of worship is abominable.

If you disagree, please say why.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Okay, I get your motivation.

While the murders of hundreds of children (or even one) is far worse than the burning of the churches, I do not think that is "the" real concern. First, because there are more than one thing that concern people here. Second, because clearly different people here are concerned about different things. But if you ask me, from what I'm reading, that is not a threat in the present. It is something that other people did a considerably long time ago. And it is also not something there is disagreement about.

Exactly. The acts are very wrong but this is basically a sins of the father case.

If some of this happened until recently enough for some perpetrators to be alive, then by all means, they should be prosecuted and punished (though unfortunately Canada probably does not have a sufficiently big punishemnt). But I do not know that that is the case. That one of the schools was opened until 1996 does not imply that the murders happen up to then; but if they did, again, sure, those who murdered children deserve to be punished - of course, a fair trial would be needed to guarantee they get the right perpetrator.

Yup. If any of the perpetrators are still alive they should spend the rest of their years in jail. I just very much doubt any are.

 

[bilby]

I'm missing the part where anyone hates anyone else?

Reread the thread.
Hatred of Catholics is all over the place.
Tom

The Catholic church isn't the same thing as Catholics.

I hate the Catholic church, as an institution. I pity Catholics, I don't hate them (unless they do something to make me hate them. Being Catholic isn't one of those things).

Your loyalty to your abusers is sad, but understandable. But you really should try harder to grasp that the institution isn't just the individuals who subscribe to and support it.

 

[Patooka]

I'm missing the part where anyone hates anyone else?

Reread the thread.
Hatred of Catholics is all over the place.
Tom

I see a lot of well deserved criticism directed at the Catholic Church, and I know at least one of those critics in this thread is a catholic who went to de LaSalle schools in primary and high school. I don't see a lot of hatred directed towards catholics.

 

[Gospel]

So you can materialize another meaning out of thin air? No thanks.

Do you think black folks have a right to choose the religion of slavers? And remain safe from arson?

Really, I have trouble understanding why people who are the descendants of white EuroColonialist slaves adopt the religion of the slavers. But they do, in droves.


I don't think that torching their houses of worship is OK either. I don't believe in collective punishment. I don't think that anybody has a right to punish people for belonging to a religion that they hate.

I have little interest in anybody's house of worship. I'm not a theist. But I do believe in having the same moral code for everyone. Burning down somebody else's house of worship is abominable.

If you disagree, please say why.
Tom

So my saying I sympathize with the people who burned down the churches where unmarked graves of children were found because I understand their reason = I want to burn all catholic churches down. Nice one.

 

[Gospel]

Within this thread, I see a lot of anti-Catholic Church sentiment...

Yeah. Me too.
And, arguably, a few statements that might constitute incitement to violence in certain jurisdictions.

If an anti-abortionist said the same sort of things about fire bombing abortion clinics they would get a visit from law enforcement. And rightly so.

In Victoria, pursuant to section 321G of Victoria’s Crimes Act, where a person incites any other person to pursue conduct that will involve the commission of an offence, if it is acted on in accordance with the intention of the inciter, the inciter is guilty of an offence.

Nice blanket accusation. Can you site the post. Something tells me you're doing the Tomc and logic boogieing your way to that sentiment.

 

[Lion IRC]

One got deleted.

 

[Gospel]

I'll take your word for it but none of my posts were deleted (to my knowledge), yet TomC somehow thinks I hate all Catholics and want to burn down all their churches. You chimed in with an apparent agreement with him so, I deduced that you were talking about me.

 

[Toni]

Within this thread, I see a lot of anti-Catholic Church sentiment...

Yeah. Me too.
And, arguably, a few statements that might constitute incitement to violence in certain jurisdictions.

If an anti-abortionist said the same sort of things about fire bombing abortion clinics they would get a visit from law enforcement. And rightly so.

In Victoria, pursuant to section 321G of Victoria’s Crimes Act, where a person incites any other person to pursue conduct that will involve the commission of an offence, if it is acted on in accordance with the intention of the inciter, the inciter is guilty of an offence.

Well, if someone built an abortion clinic on my property without my permission, I would be within my rights to remove it, even by burning, assuming I got the appropriate burn permits.

This is the part that the Church Defenders keep skipping: The churches which were burned were on First Nation's property.

 

[bilby]

Within this thread, I see a lot of anti-Catholic Church sentiment...

Yeah. Me too.
And, arguably, a few statements that might constitute incitement to violence in certain jurisdictions.

If an anti-abortionist said the same sort of things about fire bombing abortion clinics they would get a visit from law enforcement. And rightly so.

In Victoria, pursuant to section 321G of Victoria’s Crimes Act, where a person incites any other person to pursue conduct that will involve the commission of an offence, if it is acted on in accordance with the intention of the inciter, the inciter is guilty of an offence.

Nice blanket accusation. Can you site the post. Something tells me you're doing the Tomc and logic boogieing your way to that sentiment.

I suspect he's referring to this post, which I was asked to edit to clarify that it wasn't intended as an incitement to violence. As the request was made after the regular edit window had expired, the mods kindly made my edit offline, and reinstated it, but it wasn't visible for a short time while this was done.

 

[Toni]

So you can materialize another meaning out of thin air? No thanks.

Do you think black folks have a right to choose the religion of slavers? And remain safe from arson?

Really, I have trouble understanding why people who are the descendants of white EuroColonialist slaves adopt the religion of the slavers. But they do, in droves.


I don't think that torching their houses of worship is OK either. I don't believe in collective punishment. I don't think that anybody has a right to punish people for belonging to a religion that they hate.

I have little interest in anybody's house of worship. I'm not a theist. But I do believe in having the same moral code for everyone. Burning down somebody else's house of worship is abominable.

If you disagree, please say why.
Tom

I believe that the individuals who burned those churches down were within their rights as the churches were on First Nations property.

If I built a shed or a church or a dog grooming business on your property without your permission, you would have every right to remove it, in any fashion you chose. Including burning it down, assuming you have the appropriate burn permits.

Those responsible for the burning down of the churches did so in such a way as to ensure that no living person was harmed by their actions.

If the Catholic Church had behaved with similar integrity, this conversation would not be taking place.

 

[Lion IRC]

I'll take your word for it but none of my posts were deleted (to my knowledge), yet TomC somehow thinks I hate all Catholics and want to burn down all their churches. You chimed in with an apparent agreement with him so, I deduced that you were talking about me.

Um...your deduction is wrong.
I was agreeing with Toni who said....
"Within this thread, I see a lot of anti-Catholic Church sentiment..."

Me saying there are "a few statements" is hardly a blanket accusation.

I'm taking about the sort of post where someone says that burning a few churches isn't going to change anything and that in order to really get the attention of the Vatican you have to burn a lot of churches. Or that the churches which were burned were on First Nation's property therefore it's OK.

This is a fundamental misreading of the laws in many jurisdictions which would send you to jail for incitement to commit vandalism, arson, grievous bodily harm, assault, manslaughter...

https://globalnews.ca/news/7992990/church-fires-canada-condemned/

Oh look. Victim blaming. I knew liberals could do it if they really tried.

If the Catholic Church had behaved with similar integrity, this conversation would not be taking place.

 

[Metaphor]

If I were to build a structure on your property, would you have the right to burn it down (assuming you had appropriate fire permits)?

If TomC had native title over the land, it wouldn't be his decision to make, but his entire tribe or nation. So no--I don't think TomC would have the right to burn it down.

 

[Lion IRC]

Here's one more reason inciting arson attacks - ON ANY PROPERTY - is wrong and illegal.

"Man charged with murder after allegedly setting fire to warehouse where three squatters died"
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ere-three-squatters-died-20170303-guplvy.html

 

[Metaphor]

This is the part that the Church Defenders keep skipping: The churches which were burned were on First Nation's property.

At the time the churches were built, were they built legally?

Why do you think having native title entitles an individual to do what they want as if they were the sole freehold owner of land? Did the person or persons who burned down the churches consult with and get the endorsement of their nation to do so?