Elixir
Made in America
You could stop right there.that you find human life transcendent
Because I do.
I don't. I find human lives transcendent. Life is a quality not a thing.
You could stop right there.that you find human life transcendent
Because I do.
And if you ever tether me to you I will consider it my right to kill you and your whole family.And so again, even were the fetus "TomC" and I tethered to you, and for you this a necessity for your survival, I would be within my rights to revoke this tether and leave you to die.
ah, ok... so you have this belief that you use to verbally crucify anyone you disagree with, but you won't or can't give any kind of explanation or rationale for it, and you assume it means you are smugly superior to anyone who doesn't instantly abdicate to your authority on the matter.You could stop right there.that you find human life transcendent
Because I do.
Young or old, male or female, rich or poor, useful or not, American or not, white or not,
Yeah. I value human individuals. All of them. More than I value people's rights to do whatever they want to do.
To me, this is the grand sweep of moral improvement and sophistication. Leaving people out of the Human Family is the old, primitive, ethics and moral principles. Including everyone, including fetal children, is better. Same as including women and black people improved the USA. The more people we include in the Family of Humanity the better off we are as a whole.
Like the genocidal slavers of yore, you might disagree.
So, it's not that fertilization is sacrosanct. It's that human beings are. And while you might think that fetal children are unimportant, like 18th century Christians thought that indigenous people were unimportant, I disagree.
I probably won't change my mind.
Tom
you have this belief that you use to verbally crucify anyone you disagree with,
no, it is:you have this belief that you use to verbally crucify anyone you disagree with,
It is:
"I value human individuals."
Humans have never been very good at that. We've gotten a little better over the last few centuries. But we're still not great at it.
Tom
no, it is:you have this belief that you use to verbally crucify anyone you disagree with,
It is:
"I value human individuals."
Humans have never been very good at that. We've gotten a little better over the last few centuries. But we're still not great at it.
Tom
"i claim to value human individuals. i can't or won't explain what 'value' means, nor how it applies to the real world. however, the fact that i have this random and ill-defined zeal means you must instantly capitulate to whatever judgment i have about a given situation or else i'll just resort to throwing out childish insults"
pretty big difference there.
Life has never been rigorously defined, and probably can’t be. It’s one of those ‘I know it when I see it’ things; An attempt to impose a strict dichotomy onto a spectrum of conditions, that always fails to both include everything that we want to include, and/or to exclude everything we want to include.
I know enough elementary biology to know when an individual human being comes into existence. I value all of them. We are all somewhere on the trajectory from fertilization to death. People feeling entitled to choose death for other people is anathema to morality.
Note that you are making a jump to "people". What exactly defines a person?At least my morality. Obviously, not everyone agrees. Plenty of people don't see that as a moral issue. Jarhyn and Putin and the Uvalde shooter come to mind. Some people feel entitled to choose death for other people.
Henrietta Lacks. She no doubt lives on in laboratories around the world. Person or not? And if not, why not?You could stop right there.that you find human life transcendent
Because I do.
Young or old, male or female, rich or poor, useful or not, American or not, white or not,
Yeah. I value human individuals. All of them. More than I value people's rights to do whatever they want to do.
You don’t know what it means, but you are certain that it’s axiomatically true.It's human beings that are sacrosanct(whatever that means).
No.Back in early 2003 the Pope declared Bush's Invasion of Iraq a crime against humanity. I agreed with him.He will claim that this isn’t a current element of his position; And I have no doubt that he honestly believes that.
Do you think that's because I was brainwashed by the RCC?
Tom
Of course you won’t change your mind.You could stop right there.that you find human life transcendent
Because I do.
Young or old, male or female, rich or poor, useful or not, American or not, white or not,
Yeah. I value human individuals. All of them. More than I value people's rights to do whatever they want to do.
To me, this is the grand sweep of moral improvement and sophistication. Leaving people out of the Human Family is the old, primitive, ethics and moral principles. Including everyone, including fetal children, is better. Same as including women and black people improved the USA. The more people we include in the Family of Humanity the better off we are as a whole.
Like the genocidal slavers of yore, you might disagree.
So, it's not that fertilization is sacrosanct. It's that human beings are. And while you might think that fetal children are unimportant, like 18th century Christians thought that indigenous people were unimportant, I disagree.
I probably won't change my mind.
Tom
Why do you believe this?It’s an emotional response that was beaten into you as a child, and you don’t have (and never had) a reason for it, beyond the fact that it feels to you like a fundamental truth of reality.
It's not a 'fetal child'. It is a fetus. The question is 'not if it's living'.. but 'if it is a person'. I figure, by the time it potentially will be viable, then the woman who is pregnant wants a child. If they , for what ever reason, decided to get an abortion at that point, there will have to be strong extenuating circumstances. So, those circumsances are none of my business, and I would leave it up to that woman and her doctor.Technically you'd be the one sounding like a slaver because you are going on about your rights to inhibit the rights of another living / breathing human being.
So, we're back to the question of whether or not a fetal child is living?
Tom
Experience.Why do you believe this?It’s an emotional response that was beaten into you as a child, and you don’t have (and never had) a reason for it, beyond the fact that it feels to you like a fundamental truth of reality.
Am I? I see no reason to think that you are an exception to the very well established trend that people who had Catholic upbringings make the exact arguments you make, and people who didn’t, don’t.I'm being as nice as I can at this moment. It's a struggle. You are making assertions about me. Utterly false assertions.
I am sorry you feel insulted.You don't know what you're talking about. You know almost nothing about me. But you think you know more about me than I do. It's extremely insulting.
Extremely.
huh... so you're saying that when you don't understand why someone believes something, and all you're getting out of them is personal insults and wild assertions about your own character just because you hold a point of different from them, you find that insulting?Why do you believe this?
I'm being as nice as I can at this moment. It's a struggle. You are making assertions about me. Utterly false assertions.
You don't know what you're talking about. You know almost nothing about me. But you think you know more about me than I do. It's extremely insulting.
Extremely.
Thank you!!Of course you won’t change your mind.
It’s an emotional response that was beaten into you as a child, and you don’t have (and never had) a reason for it, beyond the fact that it feels to you like a fundamental truth of reality.
You can’t reason yourself out of an error you never reasoned yourself into. And changing your mind would feel like changing who you are, at the most fundamental level.
You should be angry at the people who did that to you, but the wounds they inflicted on your mind are too well established for you to even see that they’re not part of yourself.
You can always reason yourself out of things you didn't reason yourself into. It's other folks who can't. The problem is that most people lack the power to or understanding that they may reason with themselves in such a way, as to reflect doubt inward.Of course you won’t change your mind.You could stop right there.that you find human life transcendent
Because I do.
Young or old, male or female, rich or poor, useful or not, American or not, white or not,
Yeah. I value human individuals. All of them. More than I value people's rights to do whatever they want to do.
To me, this is the grand sweep of moral improvement and sophistication. Leaving people out of the Human Family is the old, primitive, ethics and moral principles. Including everyone, including fetal children, is better. Same as including women and black people improved the USA. The more people we include in the Family of Humanity the better off we are as a whole.
Like the genocidal slavers of yore, you might disagree.
So, it's not that fertilization is sacrosanct. It's that human beings are. And while you might think that fetal children are unimportant, like 18th century Christians thought that indigenous people were unimportant, I disagree.
I probably won't change my mind.
Tom
It’s an emotional response that was beaten into you as a child, and you don’t have (and never had) a reason for it, beyond the fact that it feels to you like a fundamental truth of reality.
You can’t reason yourself out of an error you never reasoned yourself into. And changing your mind would feel like changing who you are, at the most fundamental level.
You should be angry at the people who did that to you, but the wounds they inflicted on your mind are too well established for you to even see that they’re not part of yourself.