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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (shifting the burden of proof fallacy)

I don't remember voting for that rule.
Why can't eye witness testimony of past events be taken as evidence in court?

Verifiable evidence is the rule of logic and reason. Nobody gets a vote. Eye witness testimony is not necessarily evidence that a claimed event actually occurred. The witness may be lying or mistaken. Independent witnesses add strength to the claim, which provides evidence for the proposition that the event happened approximately as described.
What do mean "not necessarily?"

If I say you killed her but am mistaken in my belief, then you are innocent of the crime I say you committed, but while my saying it in no way proves or makes it so you're guilty, it's still something that can (sadly) be used to pile on other dung to support the notion that you did what I said you did.

So again, what do mean by not necessarily. If I offer testimony to support a claim, that's evidence. Still, people have this notion that something isn't evidence just because it doesn't guarantee the claim being made.

I know how it sounds, but if I see you holding a gun, then that's evidence that you own the gun IF a claim is made that you own it. It doesn't matter that you borrowed it.
 
If you can't provide your information for someone else to scrutinise then it isn't evidence.

I don't remember voting for that rule.
Why can't eye witness testimony of past events be taken as evidence in court?

Witness was there. Witness saw the murder. If you exclude their testimony, then the accused murder is acquitted because "there is no evidence" they did it.

The eye witness says..."but I was there, I saw the murder happen, I saw who did it"

Shouty angry defense lawyer bigfield tells the judge and jury...
"THATS #<!!&@ NOT EVIDENCE!!!!

If we hold such extraordinary claims to the standard of a murder trial then only the most foolish juror would be convinced by nothing more than a single eyewitness's testimony. There would be no crime scene forensics, no murder weapon, no body; the prosecutor can't even prove that the alleged victim isn't still alive, cooking dinner at home. The defence lawyer wouldn't need to shout since he's been handed the easiest victory of his career, and the prosecutor would be fired at the earliest opportunity.

ETA:

The claims of eyewitnesses in a murder case are also typically easier to investigate than claims regarding the supernatural and paranormal. If you claim that the victim was murdered in their bedroom with a knife, then a forensic investigator can search for physical evidence at the scene. If you claim that the victim was murdered on a London street in view of a CCTV camera then the police can get the footage. Medical investigators can examine the body to determine the cause of death, and the prime suspect can be interrogated by police and questioned in court.
 
Maybe this will help:

Dear ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Mr. Almighty prosecutor says there's evidence that my client committed the crime to which he's accused. Evidence. Evidence he says. Well, you know what, he's right; there's garboodles of evidence, but what he's failed to explain is that not a single piece of evidence has been properly qualified. It's called evidence, yes, but with the absence of credibility, it's rightly called BAD evidence. Bad evidence. So no, I won't stand before you and say no evidence has been brought forward. I'll simply tell you like it should be told. I'll tell you the way it is. There is no good evidence (only bad evidence with no backing--no credibility).

See, we mistakenly say that something isn't evidence when it doesn't show what it's intended to show, but it's the intending itself that distinguishes it from evidence as opposed to purported fact. Something isn't rightly called evidence unless there's utility--good or bad. I'm not going to call something evidence merely because. Tracks on the road isn't going to be referred to as evidence without having a purpose for using said fact to support something.

A MAN drove down the road; here's the tracks as my evidence. Good evidence? Not necessarily. It could have been a woman. Evidence, yes. Proof, no. It supports the claim that a man drove down the road; after all, had it been a man, there's the tracks. That it was a woman just goes to show that the evidence isn't good enough to prove it was a man. So, is it evidence that a man drove? Yes because it was used to support the contention but bad because it fails to identify the sex of the driver.
 
Verifiable evidence is the rule of logic and reason. Nobody gets a vote. Eye witness testimony is not necessarily evidence that a claimed event actually occurred. The witness may be lying or mistaken. Independent witnesses add strength to the claim, which provides evidence for the proposition that the event happened approximately as described.
What do mean "not necessarily?"

If I say you killed her but am mistaken in my belief, then you are innocent of the crime I say you committed, but while my saying it in no way proves or makes it so you're guilty, it's still something that can (sadly) be used to pile on other dung to support the notion that you did what I said you did.

That's basically what I said. My remark ''not necessarily'' refers to the possibility that your testimony against me is bogus...which is subsequently demonstrated by my Lawyer, who proves that at the time of the event in question you were not in a position to have witnessed the events that you claim to have witnessed.

So again, what do mean by not necessarily. If I offer testimony to support a claim, that's evidence.

It's provisional upon verification, corroboration, etc. What if it comes down to your word against mine? Where does the 'evidence' lie?
 
I don't remember voting for that rule.
Why can't eye witness testimony of past events be taken as evidence in court?

Witness was there. Witness saw the murder. If you exclude their testimony, then the accused murder is acquitted because "there is no evidence" they did it.

I saw you murder an eight-year-old girl, then cremate her remains.

I guess that makes you guilty.

Well, since you put it that way, I guess anyone who claims they saw anything must be presumed a liar. That's going to make the scientific method meaningless.
 
I don't remember voting for that rule.
Why can't eye witness testimony of past events be taken as evidence in court?

Verifiable evidence is the rule of logic and reason. Nobody gets a vote. Eye witness testimony is not necessarily evidence that a claimed event actually occurred. The witness may be lying or mistaken. Independent witnesses add strength to the claim, which provides evidence for the proposition that the event happened approximately as described.

You do understand that huge bodies of scientific 'evidence' consists of what people claim they saw under in microscope or telescope? What you're saying is that I should disbelieve such evidence because I haven't verified the size of Pluto or the existence of sub-atomic particles.
 
Why do so many atheists/empiricists adopt such a strict binary view? Black or white thinking.
It's either evidenceTM and therefore absolutely 100% true or else it can't be called evidence.

This is very strange and closed-minded.

What's so hard about assigning evidence degrees of persuasiveness or credibility? Historians do that all the time.

Try taking a more reasonable approach and admit that there is evidence which might be true, or is probably true or is overwhelmingly likely to be true. There is evidence which is open to multiple interpretations. There is evidence which is presented by people with no motive to lie and there is evidence presented by people with a huge motive to lie. There is evidence which 99.9% people think is true and evidence which only 1 person believes. (Anonymous Wikileaks anybody?)

Of course, there's a good chance that the atheist who uses cap lock to assert "THATS NOT EVIDENCE" only does so when it comes to the God debate. It very unlikely they inflexibly set the empirical bar so high in other areas where it suits their personal bias to grant the benefit of the doubt. #atheists_for_Trump
 
Verifiable evidence is the rule of logic and reason. Nobody gets a vote. Eye witness testimony is not necessarily evidence that a claimed event actually occurred. The witness may be lying or mistaken. Independent witnesses add strength to the claim, which provides evidence for the proposition that the event happened approximately as described.

You do understand that huge bodies of scientific 'evidence' consists of what people claim they saw under in microscope or telescope? What you're saying is that I should disbelieve such evidence because I haven't verified the size of Pluto or the existence of sub-atomic particles.

No, it's based on repeatable observations. It doesn't depend on anybody's word alone.
 
I saw you murder an eight-year-old girl, then cremate her remains.

I guess that makes you guilty.

Well, since you put it that way, I guess anyone who claims they saw anything must be presumed a liar. That's going to make the scientific method meaningless.

Now you're getting it. Until your claims can be reproduced and/or verified, they are not be automatically believed.

 Cold_fusion#Response_and_fallout


What do you suppose would the first question a District Attorney would ask me if I told him I saw you murder an eight-year-old girl?
 
Why do so many atheists/empiricists adopt such a strict binary view? Black or white thinking.
It's either evidenceTM and therefore absolutely 100% true or else it can't be called evidence.

This is very strange and closed-minded.

What's so hard about assigning evidence degrees of persuasiveness or credibility? Historians do that all the time.

Try taking a more reasonable approach and admit that there is evidence which might be true, or is probably true or is overwhelmingly likely to be true. There is evidence which is open to multiple interpretations. There is evidence which is presented by people with no motive to lie and there is evidence presented by people with a huge motive to lie. There is evidence which 99.9% people think is true and evidence which only 1 person believes. (Anonymous Wikileaks anybody?)

Of course, there's a good chance that the atheist who uses cap lock to assert "THATS NOT EVIDENCE" only does so when it comes to the God debate. It very unlikely they inflexibly set the empirical bar so high in other areas where it suits their personal bias to grant the benefit of the doubt. #atheists_for_Trump

How about you learn the difference between demonstrable and verifiable evidence and personal anecdotal testimony.
 
A MAN drove down the road; here's the tracks as my evidence. Good evidence? Not necessarily. It could have been a woman. Evidence, yes. Proof, no. It supports the claim that a man drove down the road; after all, had it been a man, there's the tracks. That it was a woman just goes to show that the evidence isn't good enough to prove it was a man. So, is it evidence that a man drove? Yes because it was used to support the contention but bad because it fails to identify the sex of the driver.
It's not really evidence of anything much in isolation because it's inconsequential. If it formed a small part of a large body of evidence it would be more significant. It's like trying to make conclusions from an analysis of a sample size that is far too small to be accurate.
 
I saw you murder an eight-year-old girl, then cremate her remains.

I guess that makes you guilty.

Well, since you put it that way, I guess anyone who claims they saw anything must be presumed a liar.

Yup. Not always in court, but ALWAYS in science.

That's going to make the scientific method meaningless.

Nope. Observations must be repeatable in order to constitute evidence in support of an hypothesis in science.
 
Verifiable evidence is the rule of logic and reason. Nobody gets a vote. Eye witness testimony is not necessarily evidence that a claimed event actually occurred. The witness may be lying or mistaken. Independent witnesses add strength to the claim, which provides evidence for the proposition that the event happened approximately as described.

You do understand that huge bodies of scientific 'evidence' consists of what people claim they saw under in microscope or telescope? What you're saying is that I should disbelieve such evidence because I haven't verified the size of Pluto or the existence of sub-atomic particles.
One can go and get a microscope, or telescope, and reproduce the result - at will. If the observation can't be repeated, then it would be highly suspect. Scientific observations, if properly reported, (by the criteria of scientific methodology), will permit the reader / listener to go and check for themselves. Not so for purely anecdotal evidence, which may be evidence only of imagined, hallucinated or otherwise purely brain activities. They might, on the other hand represent truth about the real external world, but as pure anecdotes, are indistinguishable from imagined, hallucinated or otherwise purely brain activities. What to do about that? Figure out how to investigate the phenomenon / phenomena, so that we can confirm or fail to confirm.

Argumentum ad populum doesn't satisfy.
 
Yes interesting ,some people of the ID persuasion have said that certain pictures of universe looks like a great big brain although of course this can not really be verified especially with the level of scientific knowing currently available to us. I am not sure if at all there really can be much evidence against creation by how much we currently know from the scientific perspectives.
 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (shifting the burden of proof fallacy)

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
- Nothing wrong here and sounds perfectly fine. There have been throughout our history, the gathering and accumulative knowledge by the example of the phrase. Later we persistently then discover the cause or evidence of a particular subject of interest or study. (Or when all is revealed by God in this regard)
 
Verifiable evidence is the rule of logic and reason. Nobody gets a vote. Eye witness testimony is not necessarily evidence that a claimed event actually occurred. The witness may be lying or mistaken. Independent witnesses add strength to the claim, which provides evidence for the proposition that the event happened approximately as described.

You do understand that huge bodies of scientific 'evidence' consists of what people claim they saw under in microscope or telescope? What you're saying is that I should disbelieve such evidence because I haven't verified the size of Pluto or the existence of sub-atomic particles.

Anyone with the interest and aptitude is able to get a degree, enter the field of their choice and win world acclaim if they can falsify an established body of work. So even if you don't care to do that yourself, the fact that so many research labs, organizations and individuals are testing results that its extremely unlikely that there is a world wide conspiracy to maintain the status quo. Not so religion, nobody within a given religion, say the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy, is willing to falsify their faith based world view. The scientific method is the very opposite of faith.
 
You do understand that huge bodies of scientific 'evidence' consists of what people claim they saw under in microscope or telescope? What you're saying is that I should disbelieve such evidence because I haven't verified the size of Pluto or the existence of sub-atomic particles.

Anyone with the interest and aptitude is able to get a degree, enter the field of their choice and win world acclaim if they can falsify an established body of work. So even if you don't care to do that yourself, the fact that so many research labs, organizations and individuals are testing results that its extremely unlikely that there is a world wide conspiracy to maintain the status quo. Not so religion, nobody within a given religion, say the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy, is willing to falsify their faith based world view. The scientific method is the very opposite of faith.
That's true. We can only know beyond a reasonable doubt that the Roman Church's top cleric isn't talking to or receiving communications from an invisible spaceman. But anyone is free to believe that this is in fact occurring or even investigate it.

If someone in some scientific field took up the challenge to demonstrate that these communications are not in fact occurring they'd likely be dismissed as a quack for wasting their academic time. And I doubt that any reputable institution would risk the credibility of its imprimatur on such buffoonery.

Of course, an institution or enterprise that is not scientifically evidence based, one that engages in activities similar to changing fruit juice and wheat flour into space beings for purposes of human consumption might be interested in winning over such adherents.
 
Well, since you put it that way, I guess anyone who claims they saw anything must be presumed a liar. That's going to make the scientific method meaningless.

The point of inserting 'verifiable' in the evidence requirement is to assure another one can replicate whatever is claimed. So it comes down to manipulation of material things under cover of material laws. If you claim material laws are false one can easily demonstrate you are wrong by conducting experiments based upon those laws which can be replicated by others.
 
Well, since you put it that way, I guess anyone who claims they saw anything must be presumed a liar.

That is presenting a false dichotomy. There are more options and possibilities. A person may genuinely believe what they say they saw but be mistaken, maybe the light played tricks with their vision, they may be a poor observer through no fault of their own (they are what they are).

Being mistaken is not lying.

Faulty recall is not lying.

A witness reporting their observation based on poor observation/analysis ability with all the related errors is not lying.
 
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