According to Robert Sapolsky, human free will does not exist

[The AntiChris]

Essentially compatibilism is simply the belief that free will is possible whether or not the universe is deterministic.

That is sheer, unmitigated non-sense.

It might seem that way to someone who doesn't understand the claims of compatibilism.

If what you say were true, then compatibilism would simply be the belief that free will were possible.

Yes, Compatibilist free will is the ability to act on one's own desires, motives, or will without external coercion or impediment and this ability exists regardless of the deterministic/indeterministic nature of the universe.

But, then, calling that belief compatibilism would be sheer and unmitigated non-sense in itself, because the very word compatibilism indicates a claimed compatibility, and, in this case, that would be a compatibility between free will and ... and ... what?

Your logic escapes me.

I can only think you believe the following claims are mutually exclusive

1) compatibilist free will is possible whether or not the universe is deterministic
and
2) Compatibilist free will is compatible with determinism

I have no idea why you have a problem with this.

 

[BSilvEsq]

I can only think you believe the following claims are mutually exclusive

1) compatibilist free will is possible whether or not the universe is deterministic
and
2) Compatibilist free will is compatible with determinism

I have no idea why you have a problem with this.

I do not see the two claims as being mutually exclusive. Rather, I see them as being complimentary. They also do not address the question of what is meant by the word "Determinism" -- which you elsewhere seem to contend to be irrelevant. Unless Compatibilist free will is defined as "that which is compatible with determinism [whatever determinism might mean]" the statements are devoid of meaning without a statement of the meaning of determinism as used in the statements. And if Compatibilist free will were defined to mean "that which is compatible with determinism [whatever determinism might mean]" the definition would be a mere tautology and fail to advance the debate.

 

[The AntiChris]

Or, are you saying now that Compatibilism simply means a belief that Free Will can and/or does exist without regard to anything else that might be true of the universe -- in which case Free Will (however you define it) would be compatible with Determinism without regard to what Determinism might be?

Yes!!!

The free will that compatibilists subscribe to is not dependent on determinism/indeterminism.

The only reason compatibilism is defined as compatible with determinism is because it stands in opposition to the irrationality of those who insist that no one is free under determinism - the incompatibilists.

I am unable to follow the logic of this last exchange.

I take it from your reply that you contend that "Free Will can and/or does exist without regard to anything else that might be true of the universe -- in which case Free Will (however you define it) would be compatible with Determinism without regard to what Determinism might be."

I've no idea where you got "anything else that might be true of the universe" from? I've solely been talking about the deterministic nature of the universe. And, yes, compatibilists believe free will is compatible with determinism 'without regard to how it is defined.

If you are saying that Free Will is compatible with the Determinism if Determinism is defined in the fatalistic sense, can you please explain what you mean by Free Will in that context - because I fail to understand how that can be.

That determinism is fatalistic is an interpretation of the nature of determinism usually advanced by incompatibilists in support of their insistence that there is no freedom in determinism. Compatibilism is the view that free will is compatible with determinism regardless of how critics of compatibilism might negatively interpret determinism.

 

[BSilvEsq]

Or, are you saying now that Compatibilism simply means a belief that Free Will can and/or does exist without regard to anything else that might be true of the universe -- in which case Free Will (however you define it) would be compatible with Determinism without regard to what Determinism might be?

Yes!!!

The free will that compatibilists subscribe to is not dependent on determinism/indeterminism.

The only reason compatibilism is defined as compatible with determinism is because it stands in opposition to the irrationality of those who insist that no one is free under determinism - the incompatibilists.

I am unable to follow the logic of this last exchange.

I take it from your reply that you contend that "Free Will can and/or does exist without regard to anything else that might be true of the universe -- in which case Free Will (however you define it) would be compatible with Determinism without regard to what Determinism might be."

I've no idea where you got "anything else that might be true of the universe" from? I've solely been talking about the deterministic nature of the universe. And, yes, compatibilists believe free will is compatible with determinism 'without regard to how it is defined.

Perhaps, you simply answered my prior question too quickly or too casually.

The words "anything else that might be true of the universe" were a part of the question I asked in the post to which you replied "Yes!!" This is shown in the quoted exchange above. There was no sleight of hand or substitution or addition of words on my part.

I take it from you most recent post that you withdraw the "Yes!!" that you provided in response to the question "are you saying now that Compatibilism simply means a belief that Free Will can and/or does exist without regard to anything else that might be true of the universe -- in which case Free Will (however you define it) would be compatible with Determinism without regard to what Determinism might be?" If so, that is fine. That, is however, where the words came from about which you most recently wrote: "I've no idea where you got 'anything else that might be true of the universe' from?"

 

[The AntiChris]

if Compatibilist free will were defined to mean "that which is compatible with determinism [whatever determinism might mean]" the definition would be a mere tautology and fail to advance the debate.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that "the debate" is about determinism. It's not. It's about what we mean by free will and moral responsibility.

 

[The AntiChris]

Perhaps, you simply answered my prior question too quickly or too casually.

The words "anything else that might be true of the universe" were a part of the question I asked in the post to which you replied "Yes!!" This is shown in the quoted exchange above. There was no sleight of hand or substitution or addition of words on my part.

I take it from you most recent post that you withdraw the "Yes!!" that you provided in response to the question "are you saying now that Compatibilism simply means a belief that Free Will can and/or does exist without regard to anything else that might be true of the universe -- in which case Free Will (however you define it) would be compatible with Determinism without regard to what Determinism might be?" If so, that is fine. That, is however, where the words came from about which you most recently wrote: "I've no idea where you got 'anything else that might be true of the universe' from?"

I was aware that you'd used the phrase previously. When you used that phrase again it seemed you were making a point so I (over)reacted ! I'm still not clear why you interpreted my "determinism/indeterminism is irrelevant to compatibilists" as "without regard to anything else that might be true of the universe". They look like quite different claims to me.

 

[BSilvEsq]

if Compatibilist free will were defined to mean "that which is compatible with determinism [whatever determinism might mean]" the definition would be a mere tautology and fail to advance the debate.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that "the debate" is about determinism. It's not. It's about what we mean by free will and moral responsibility.

Then you are engaging on a debate to define only half of the two things claimed to be compatible with one another. Without defining both sides of the equation, and then explained how they are compatible with one another there is no debate about the logical coherence of compatibilism. There is just an inquiry into what is meant by Free Will, which is a valid exercise, but begs the question of what is determinism and is free will (as you seek to define it) compatible with determinism. To simply declare it to be so goes nowhere



So be it.

 

[Elixir]

I'm still not clear why you interpreted my "determinism/indeterminism is irrelevant to compatibilists" as "without regard to anything else that might be true of the universe".

It's not a Truth Claim like "determinism is true" or "determinism is false". It's just another way to honor the indisputable FACT that it doesn't matter. From our viewpoint, from every viewpoint of realistic expectation regarding experiences humans can have as bioforms on a rock, measuring and confirming determinism or free will is not part of the set. Pray for a revelation from a god that free will exists ... if you get it, that may suffice for your purposes. Or refrain and experience the FOMO on the revelation!