Affirmative Action (split from shooting du jour)

[TomC]

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Is that a yes? Looks like one, but in a dodgy sort of way.
Tom

Have you stopped beating your wife? I want a "yes" or a "no". No dodgy looking attempts to weasel out of the question.

Really, now?!

Have you forgotten has no interest in having a wife in the first place!

Loren you’re being overly literal here.

Which isn't nearly as amusing as watching bilby dodge and squirm.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are aware that recruitment letters are not letters of acceptance, right? You are aware that many schools do their best to broaden the range of students who will apply? And I suppose you also are aware of the fact that one of the ways that schools get such a high number of applicants with respect to the number of seats they have open in any class is to recruit outside of the usual populations of students who apply? And that by boosting the number of applicants for that limited number of seats also boosts the school's selectivity score.

Reality check time: They aren't going to send a recruitment letter to someone they know they won't admit. SAT differences on recruitment letters (and note that they did not deny it) mean they have different standards for admission for different races. Smells rather like gunsmoke to me.

 

[Toni]

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Is that a yes? Looks like one, but in a dodgy sort of way.
Tom

Have you stopped beating your wife? I want a "yes" or a "no". No dodgy looking attempts to weasel out of the question.

Really, now?!

Have you forgotten has no interest in having a wife in the first place!

Loren you’re being overly literal here.

Which isn't nearly as amusing as watching bilby dodge and squirm.
Tom

Bilby has nothing to dodge and squirm about.

I’m pretty aghast at the freedom with which you call other posters racists and revel in self congratulations.

 

[Derec]

Apartheid is an excellent system, for its beneficiaries, not all of whom are on one side of the divide.
But it remains a shit and evil system, despite the existence of tiny numbers of beneficiaries in the oppressed class.

Judging applicants on the same standard regardless of race or gender is not "apartheid" by any stretch of the imagination.

But Toni is right, this thread has been derailed quite drastically.

 

[IIDB Staff]

This is a split from the thread

At least 6 dead in Mass Shooting du Jour

I wonder why there isn't a thread on this already. Elixir, I know how much you love threads about mass shootings. Asleep at the switch? Or is it something else? Sacramento shooting: At least six dead in centre of California state capital What we know about the 6 people killed in downtown...

iidb.org

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Is that a yes? Looks like one, but in a dodgy sort of way.
Tom

Have you stopped beating your wife? I want a "yes" or a "no". No dodgy looking attempts to weasel out of the question.

Really, now?!

Have you forgotten has no interest in having a wife in the first place!

Loren you’re being overly literal here.

Yeah, I know what he meant. I was just having some fun with it because it didn't fit.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m pretty aghast at the freedom with which you call other posters racists and revel in self congratulations.

Making decisions purely because of race is racism.

While you think you're doing good in doing so doesn't change that.

And some of us think the end result is doing harm, not good.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Apartheid is an excellent system, for its beneficiaries, not all of whom are on one side of the divide.

"When California abolished discriminatory admissions the black graduation rate went up--because students were in schools better matched to their ability. What's better, graduating from a second-rank school or flunking out of a top-rank school?"

You're really comparing race blind policy, which has better results, to apartheid?

What's with that?
Tom

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Except that's not what happened. They still went to good schools--schools that were mostly white. They just dropped down the ladder a bit to where they actually fit in.

The problem is discriminatory admission propagates down the ladder. The top schools admit blacks that should have been a rung down the ladder. The schools a rung down the ladder now find many students that should have gone to them going to the top schools instead and they have to dip even farther to find enough students. There are schools with basically no overlap between black SAT scores and white SAT scores--and there's a linear relationship between SAT score difference and dropout rate difference.

It probably gives an actual advantage to some at the top, but that comes with a high price tag farther down.

So, according to this 2011 source, black dropout rates at Ivy League schools max'd out at 7 pts more than whites at one of the colleges. Which means, most of the blacks admitted, are graduating.

According to a later 2013 source, top schools across the country... blacks drop out more, but statistically, the vast majority are graduating.

If they are graduating, should they not have been admitted? If they are graduating, just how useful is noting the differences in the standardized testing between the upper echelon of student?

I will say, that source isn't gospel, if there is something else telling a different story, please provide it. But the numbers seem to indicate, black students accepted to top notch programs... graduated at very high percentages.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Apartheid is an excellent system, for its beneficiaries, not all of whom are on one side of the divide.

"When California abolished discriminatory admissions the black graduation rate went up--because students were in schools better matched to their ability. What's better, graduating from a second-rank school or flunking out of a top-rank school?"

You're really comparing race blind policy, which has better results, to apartheid?

What's with that?
Tom

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Except that's not what happened. They still went to good schools--schools that were mostly white. They just dropped down the ladder a bit to where they actually fit in.

The problem is discriminatory admission propagates down the ladder. The top schools admit blacks that should have been a rung down the ladder. The schools a rung down the ladder now find many students that should have gone to them going to the top schools instead and they have to dip even farther to find enough students. There are schools with basically no overlap between black SAT scores and white SAT scores--and there's a linear relationship between SAT score difference and dropout rate difference.

It probably gives an actual advantage to some at the top, but that comes with a high price tag farther down.

So, according to this 2011 source, black dropout rates at Ivy League schools max'd out at 7 pts more than whites at one of the colleges. Which means, most of the blacks admitted, are graduating.

According to a later 2013 source, top schools across the country... blacks drop out more, but statistically, the vast majority are graduating.

If they are graduating, should they not have been admitted? If they are graduating, just how useful is noting the differences in the standardized testing between the upper echelon of student?

I will say, that source isn't gospel, if there is something else telling a different story, please provide it. But the numbers seem to indicate, black students accepted to top notch programs... graduated at very high percentages.

The dropout problem isn't going to be in the Ivy League school.