Affirmative Action (split from shooting du jour)

[bilby]

Apartheid is an excellent system, for its beneficiaries, not all of whom are on one side of the divide.

"When California abolished discriminatory admissions the black graduation rate went up--because students were in schools better matched to their ability. What's better, graduating from a second-rank school or flunking out of a top-rank school?"

You're really comparing race blind policy, which has better results, to apartheid?

What's with that?
Tom

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

 

[TomC]

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Is that a yes? Looks like one, but in a dodgy sort of way.
Tom

 

[bilby]

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Is that a yes? Looks like one, but in a dodgy sort of way.
Tom

Have you stopped beating your wife? I want a "yes" or a "no". No dodgy looking attempts to weasel out of the question.

 

[TomC]

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Is that a yes? Looks like one, but in a dodgy sort of way.
Tom

Have you stopped beating your wife? I want a "yes" or a "no". No dodgy looking attempts to weasel out of the question.

No.

"I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters"

Where did this part come from? Who is "they" in that sentence?
Tom

 

[Toni]

Show me somewhere—anywhere that shows that black students were admitted with scores that were below the cut off point for admissions to Harvard. Show me what the cut off for admissions to Harvard is.

Were White and Asian applicants also admitted at that low threshold, or were they judged at a higher standard?

You tell me.

 

[bilby]

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Is that a yes? Looks like one, but in a dodgy sort of way.
Tom

Have you stopped beating your wife? I want a "yes" or a "no". No dodgy looking attempts to weasel out of the question.

No.

"I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters"

Where did this part come from? Who is "they" in that sentence?
Tom

<edited> it would be futile for me to submit to your cross examination, so I respectfully decline.

Either you already understand what I am saying, or you never will, and I frankly don't care which.

 

[TomC]

Either you already understand what I am saying, or you never will, and I frankly don't care which.

Honestly, I think I do. You approve of institutional racism.
It's common around here.
Tom

 

[Trausti]

Show me somewhere—anywhere that shows that black students were admitted with scores that were below the cut off point for admissions to Harvard. Show me what the cut off for admissions to Harvard is.

Were White and Asian applicants also admitted at that low threshold, or were they judged at a higher standard?

You tell me.

Harvard’s gatekeeper reveals SAT cutoff scores based on race

A Harvard University dean testified that the school has different SAT score standards for prospective students based on factors such as race and sex — but insisted that the practice isn’t discrimin…

nypost.com

 

[Toni]

Either you already understand what I am saying, or you never will, and I frankly don't care which.

Honestly, I think I do. You approve of institutional racism.
It's common around here.
Tom

Hey, bilby: In case you haven't followed closely enough, Tom believes that affirmative action is institutional racism.

Show me somewhere—anywhere that shows that black students were admitted with scores that were below the cut off point for admissions to Harvard. Show me what the cut off for admissions to Harvard is.

Were White and Asian applicants also admitted at that low threshold, or were they judged at a higher standard?

You tell me.

Harvard’s gatekeeper reveals SAT cutoff scores based on race

A Harvard University dean testified that the school has different SAT score standards for prospective students based on factors such as race and sex — but insisted that the practice isn’t discrimin…

nypost.com

You are aware that recruitment letters are not letters of acceptance, right? You are aware that many schools do their best to broaden the range of students who will apply? And I suppose you also are aware of the fact that one of the ways that schools get such a high number of applicants with respect to the number of seats they have open in any class is to recruit outside of the usual populations of students who apply? And that by boosting the number of applicants for that limited number of seats also boosts the school's selectivity score.

Harvard admits fewer than 5% of the applicants for any given class.

Oh, and I suppose you actually read the article you linked? That’s race discrimination, plain and simple,” John Hughes, a lawyer for Students for Fair Admissions, challenged the dean.“It is not,” the dean insisted. He said the school targeted certain groups in order to “break the cycle” and try to convince students to apply to Harvard who normally wouldn’t consider the school.Fitzsimmons’ office oversees the screening process of about 40,000 applications and whittles them down to 2,000 acceptance letters that are handed out each year.That’s race discrimination, plain and simple,” John Hughes, a lawyer for Students for Fair Admissions, challenged the dean.“It is not,” the dean insisted. He said the school targeted certain groups in order to “break the cycle” and try to convince students to apply to Harvard who normally wouldn’t consider the school.Fitzsimmons’ office oversees the screening process of about 40,000 applications and whittles them down to 2,000 acceptance letters that are handed out each year.That’s race discrimination, plain and simple,” John Hughes, a lawyer for Students for Fair Admissions, challenged the dean.“It is not,” the dean insisted. He said the school targeted certain groups in order to “break the cycle” and try to convince students to apply to Harvard who normally wouldn’t consider the school.Fitzsimmons’ office oversees the screening process of about 40,000 applications and whittles them down to 2,000 acceptance letters that are handed out each year.

Oh, and I am certain you are aware that one does not need to receive a recruitment letter in order to apply to Harvard or any other college or university, right?

Fitzsimmons explained a similar process for white wannabe students in states that don’t see a lot of Harvard attendees, like Montana or Nevada. Students in those states would receive a recruitment letter if they had at least a 1310 on their SATs.

“That’s race discrimination, plain and simple,” John Hughes, a lawyer for Students for Fair Admissions, challenged the dean.
Adam Mortara, another attorney representing Students for Fair Admissions, accused Harvard of giving Asian-Americans significantly lower ratings for certain personal qualities, such as leadership and compassion, than other races, according to the Washington Post.

“Harvard has engaged in, and continues to engage in, intentional discrimination against Asian-Americans,” Mortara said.

William Lee, the lawyer representing the Cambridge, Mass., school, denied that it engages in discriminatory practices, saying its doors are “open to students of all backgrounds and means.”

“Harvard never considers an applicant’s race to be a negative,” he said.

 

[Toni]

I would like to bring to the attention of moderators just how far this conversation has derailed from the OP which was about yet another mass shooting but has somehow delved into posters insisting that affirmative action is institutional racism and, well, affirmative action period. Neither seem relevant to the topic outlined in the OP, even for this board which often derails.

 

[Toni]

Either you already understand what I am saying, or you never will, and I frankly don't care which.

Honestly, I think I do. You approve of institutional racism.
It's common around here.
Tom

I swear to god you must be my cousin.

 

[TomC]

Hey, bilby: In case you haven't followed closely enough, Tom believes that affirmative action is institutional racism.

That's correct @bilby .
Tom considers institutions with race based preference policies to be institutional racism.

That's not the same as saying that institutional racism is good or bad. It's just calling it what it really is.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Either you already understand what I am saying, or you never will, and I frankly don't care which.

Honestly, I think I do. You approve of institutional racism.
It's common around here.
Tom

I swear to god you must be my cousin.

Unlikely, since I was born in Illinois to a couple of Michigander college students. But not impossible.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still haven't shown how those scores aren't admitting unqualified people. Just slapping a "qualified" label on them doesn't make it so.

Show me somewhere—anywhere that shows that black students were admitted with scores that were below the cut off point for admissions to Harvard. Show me what the cut off for admissions to Harvard is.

Because the game is rigged. The "cutoff" for Harvard admission isn't a real value. They simply define it lower but only use that lower value for diversity admits. This is just the reverse of the old game of requiring workers to be 5'8" as a way of keeping women out. It was discriminatory then, it is discriminatory now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When California abolished discriminatory admissions the black graduation rate went up--because students were in schools better matched to their ability. What's better, graduating from a second-rank school or flunking out of a top-rank school?

Apartheid is an excellent system, for its beneficiaries, not all of whom are on one side of the divide.

But it remains a shit and evil system, despite the existence of tiny numbers of beneficiaries in the oppressed class.

Your avuncular parochialism and faint praise of your evident inferiors went out of fashion almost a century ago. Kipling would have thought it just the thing; But he was as incapable of recognising racism as a fish is of recognising water. You don't have that excuse.

You're not addressing my point at all.

California outlawed discriminatory admission. The result was both the graduation rate and the number of graduates went up. That's not apartheid, that's doing it right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Apartheid is an excellent system, for its beneficiaries, not all of whom are on one side of the divide.

"When California abolished discriminatory admissions the black graduation rate went up--because students were in schools better matched to their ability. What's better, graduating from a second-rank school or flunking out of a top-rank school?"

You're really comparing race blind policy, which has better results, to apartheid?

What's with that?
Tom

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Except that's not what happened. They still went to good schools--schools that were mostly white. They just dropped down the ladder a bit to where they actually fit in.

The problem is discriminatory admission propagates down the ladder. The top schools admit blacks that should have been a rung down the ladder. The schools a rung down the ladder now find many students that should have gone to them going to the top schools instead and they have to dip even farther to find enough students. There are schools with basically no overlap between black SAT scores and white SAT scores--and there's a linear relationship between SAT score difference and dropout rate difference.

It probably gives an actual advantage to some at the top, but that comes with a high price tag farther down.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Is that a yes? Looks like one, but in a dodgy sort of way.
Tom

Have you stopped beating your wife? I want a "yes" or a "no". No dodgy looking attempts to weasel out of the question.

Really, now?!

Have you forgotten has no interest in having a wife in the first place!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Show me somewhere—anywhere that shows that black students were admitted with scores that were below the cut off point for admissions to Harvard. Show me what the cut off for admissions to Harvard is.

Were White and Asian applicants also admitted at that low threshold, or were they judged at a higher standard?

You tell me.

Oops--Harvard doesn't want that data out there. They know it isn't in their favor.

 

[Toni]

Show me somewhere—anywhere that shows that black students were admitted with scores that were below the cut off point for admissions to Harvard. Show me what the cut off for admissions to Harvard is.

Were White and Asian applicants also admitted at that low threshold, or were they judged at a higher standard?

You tell me.

Oops--Harvard doesn't want that data out there. They know it isn't in their favor.

Sure. You think that Harvard is really worried that they might not have to reject 95 out of 100 applicants? Or that their endowment might not grow quite so exponentially?

Or do you think that maybe—just maybe Harvard sees value in having a student body which did not all attend the same 3 or 5 east coast prep schools? Or that their students might have something to learn from people who grew up differently from them?

I mean Harvard is still awfully popular.

But let’s get back to someone explaining how affirmative action is connected to a mass shooting?

 

[Toni]

If you can't recognise "I am sure they're happier and better off with their own kind, rather than being asked to try to compare to their betters" as an argument when it's right in front of your face, then I probably can't help you.

Is that a yes? Looks like one, but in a dodgy sort of way.
Tom

Have you stopped beating your wife? I want a "yes" or a "no". No dodgy looking attempts to weasel out of the question.

Really, now?!

Have you forgotten has no interest in having a wife in the first place!

Loren you’re being overly literal here.