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Afghan "train, advise and assist" 1984 style
- Thread starter funinspace
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Don't Panic
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That is not what SLD said, but just in case you didn't see this before; and I'm not sure just how much more blunt the US government could have been towards free US citizens. And this 'get out immediately' came more than 5 weeks before Kabul fell to the Taliban.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
Yep, you're right. Biden and his staff underestimated how fast the Afghan army would fall. The buck stops with Biden. Fuck face Trump could always get away with blaming intelligence officers when faulty decisions were made. Democrats can't. That's okay.
Regardless, it's my understanding that most of the American civilians in Afghanistan are NGOs, missionaries and resource extractors. They were warned to leave more than a year ago. I just do not think that we can justify occupying a country just to keep them safe.
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I don't speak that Rep Vs Dem language nor do I see world issues through Rep Vs Dem lenses. I understand that Biden is making the best choices he possibly can (I hope). I understand that the American's that want to leave now , had opportunities to leave at anytime well before America's exit. My opinion is that we should not have been there, to begin with, so also I have no issue with the withdrawal. My issue is with the unforeseen speed of the Taliban take over and America's response to American's put in danger as a result. The oh well you've been warned "buh bye!" attitude is a shit one in my opinion. I think there was nothing we can really do about it and the situation was/is extremely volatile, but to just go oh fucking well to American's (and allies) left behind is just poor form. Biden isn't even doing that, he laid down that weak-ass Matlock voice of his saying we're not done with the Taliban. At least he seems to know he can't go around washing his hands of this mess so easily.
Jimmy Higgins
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It isn't that simple. Often when mistakes are made, the wrong questions were asked.
Could the Afghan military defend against the Taliban? Yes. On paper, they had the training and weapons to make it work for some period of time, probably months. The probably months should have led us to another question.
The next question in hindsight, wasn't "How long would the Afghan military hold off the Taliban?" It was "If the Afghan military isn't expected to be able to hold off the Taliban for more than a period of months, why would they try to hold them off at all?" Almost no one asked this question. I mean no one, except maybe some analysts that were ignored.
The United States had 2003 as a brilliant example of why maybe the CIA and US Military should have seen this coming. The Iraqi military very easily could have resisted and held back the American military, but they were never going to win. So they surrendered before we even began our incursion. Self-preservation led to the lay down of weapons. So in the end, the US trained a military force that could fight and defend itself... if the US had a presence and they knew that it was most likely true there would be no beheadings.
This is why I hate the term "war". Afghanistan was an occupation, not a war. Our occupation led to the freeing of half the nation's population... many of whom have gone into hiding. Sports, education, exposed faces... where the US had help provide decent stability life had changed tremendously for the good... for 15 or so years. Afghanistan's Cricket team is one of the best in ODI and T20 globally. Or at least was. Their captain, Rashid Khan was playing in the Hundred's tournament in England when this went down and his family is stuck, possibly at risk. Male cricketers don't know if their lives (their family's lives) at risk. Women cricketers darn well know they are.
Yes, the exit went much better than expected, and the US didn't abandon all of Afghanistan. They helped a lot get our, whom would have been at greatest risk of reprisal from the Taliban. The rest of the nation, though, primarily in the cities... they have been recaptured and their lives are at a level of anxiety we can not imagine.
The US fucked up in Afghanistan, all of that fuck up didn't make everything worse. Things were better in many places in the country, primarily urban areas. It wasn't perfect, it wasn't hell. It is transitioning back to different levels of hell for Afghanis now.
Biden's numbers dropped because it looked bad, but as I noted in a Faux article title, almost no Americans give a damn about Afghanistan or the Afghanis. So their embarrassment over the withdrawal will evaporate quite quickly. The withdrawal wasn't a disaster, there was a bombing and tragedy, but otherwise, it couldn't have been done any better... and most ironically with the approval and assistance of the Taliban.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
I didn't mean to compare you to the Trumpsters. I was more pointing out the double standard. Here's my problem with your theory: if Biden had had perfect intelligence, and knew that the Afghan government would fall so quick: what should he have done different? In my mind, the only way to ensure that all Americans get out and all our allies with no mistakes would be to remain. Probably to surge more troops into Afghan and prop them up further. I've been a "we should leave" at some point for quite awhile. But I'm perfectly happy to say that I could be wrong. An argument could be made that we should remain. I'm willing to listen to the arguments. But I think that Biden made the right call. However, to claim that we should withdraw, and expect to get all people out with no causalities and weapons left behind is fantasy land (no disrespect intended).
Elixir
Made in America
^ That is most often a preface for yet another "both sides" slanted argument.
Yeah "just" doing that, after months of stern warning and evacuating more than 120,000 people... such a travesty, right?
Don't cry too many tears for them, Zipr. After all, the main purpose to which they would have been put, is photo-ops. They can still do that, and it will still provide months of talking points for right wing propagandist liars.
Jimmy Higgins
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Wow! That is quite humorous. Saw the images and I figured the choppers had to of been disabled. Wonder if the military put potatoes in the exhaust pipes of the Humvees.
TV and credit cards
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This one chaps my ass: AP June 22, 2021: I think I'll take my wife and four daughters to visit family in Afghanistan
I know some families are close and I'm not unsympathetic to the thought of possibly seeing family for the last time, if that is what Javed Habibi was thinking at the time. Perhaps not. Perhaps he is completely oblivious to world events beyond the plight of Britney Spears. I don't know. But his first duty was to the safety of his immediate family. In that his quote is that the "US government lied to them", I'm guessing the latter.
AP And then there are still these 30 children stuck
Now they will likely rely on whatever NGO who knowingly risk their lives to save people from their poor decisions.
I know some families are close and I'm not unsympathetic to the thought of possibly seeing family for the last time, if that is what Javed Habibi was thinking at the time. Perhaps not. Perhaps he is completely oblivious to world events beyond the plight of Britney Spears. I don't know. But his first duty was to the safety of his immediate family. In that his quote is that the "US government lied to them", I'm guessing the latter.
AP And then there are still these 30 children stuck
Now they will likely rely on whatever NGO who knowingly risk their lives to save people from their poor decisions.
Elixir
Made in America
Well was it a preface?
I guess I deserved this assumption that I'm overlooking all that considering my initial take was overly critical of Biden. My view has been adjusted after reading Biden's address later that evening on the 31st as well as subsequent posts from users here. Biden said his administration is still helping people get out after the 31st which was the cause for my initial concerns so it seems Biden & I are on the same page. I really really however do not like this whole working along with the Taliban crap. I guess it's necessary though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
IMHO the bombing at Kabul was the Taliban saying "you need to work with us, and if you stay beyond August 31st this is what you can look forward to"
Jimmy Higgins
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Huzzah!
No one likes the idea of working along with the Taliban. But the reality is, it helped Americans (and Afghans) get out of Afghanistan. It might, this time around, help with anti-terror efforts in Afghanistan.
We weren't willing to commit what was necessary to keep Afghanistan free, so if we want something, we need to ask the people we let take it back over. Life is a bitch like that.
TomC
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Pretty much this.
Like it or not, a bunch of diaperheads just kicked the ass of a nuclear tipped superpower.
We are now the one's who have to play ball by their rules.
Tom
I dunno, I wouldn't consider being thrown from my vehicle and waiting 20 years for the person who took it to leave it on the side of the road before I could get it back a win.
J842P
Veteran Member
Because the Taliban *won*. This is what happens when you *lose a war*. You negotiate with the victors. At least, that is what reasonable, competent leaders would do.
For now, the Taliban *is the de facto government*.
I mean, I get that you are angry. Cool. I could probably take that anger more seriously if it had been expressed at some point during the last 20 years, where **much bigger** fuck ups were occurring daily in Afghanistan. But noted, Gospel is angry.
J842P
Veteran Member
The Taliban totally did try to play ball. We invaded and overthrew them anyway. The only people who had no interest in "playing ball" was the US. We wanted blood and revenge. I hope the 2 trillion dollar price tag was worth it.
Also, why wouldn't you expect them to be involved? *Why wouldn't the Taliban support the withdrawal of Americans*? That is pretty much their entire goal.
See, this is just a great example of the total lack of understanding Americans have about the Taliban and Afghanistan overall.
J842P
Veteran Member
Dude, seriously and I say this without the intent to cause offense, but this is a completely ignorant perspective.