Afghan "train, advise and assist" 1984 style

[Jimmy Higgins]

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And the he tear gassed his way through the mourners to get a photo op with Air Force One.

13 American soldiers gave their lives as part of an evacuation of over 100,000 people. It'd seem odd that that would be the highlight of our actions in Afghanistan, but when America gave up on Afghanistan, it didn't completely abandon those that assisted it (unlike the Kurds in Syria). The pull out wasn't smooth, nor are the lives of those who escaped simple now, or even straight forward as many are dealing with border issues and where they will end up, but it is at least a moment we can think that American Soldiers died for something that finally mattered.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Fuck Ann Coulter!

[TWEET]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Trump REPEATEDLY demanded that we bring our soldiers home, but only President Biden had the balls to do it. <br><br>Here are a few of Trump's wuss, B.S. - I mean "masterful" - tweets: <a href="https://t.co/4iLD02Pn0G">pic.twitter.com/4iLD02Pn0G</a></p>— Ann Coulter (@AnnCoulter) <a href="https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1432801983786795017?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 31, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/TWEET]..

 

[untermensche]

They didn't give their lives.

There lives were taken from them in a worthless effort to exert control over people half a world away.

Every president that kept the US in Afghanistan is to blame. And every deluded citizen that supported the futile mission.

 

[Gospel]

[TWEET]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Trump REPEATEDLY demanded that we bring our soldiers home, but only President Biden had the balls to do it. <br><br>Here are a few of Trump's wuss, B.S. - I mean "masterful" - tweets: <a href="https://t.co/4iLD02Pn0G">pic.twitter.com/4iLD02Pn0G</a></p>— Ann Coulter (@AnnCoulter) <a href="https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1432801983786795017?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 31, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/TWEET]..

Ann Coulter is still Trash.

 

[Elixir]

This is how I see it. Every president of the Us is running an endless (hopefully) relay race and upon receiving the baton they gotta actually do their best to win. There is no point in blaming a weak link on the track when the whole team loses. As American's, it's our job to make sure our runners know this by not acting like idiots on the sidelines throwing booze and food (like Fox and CNN) at our team. It only serves to kill our chances. What we should be doing is recognizing that we're all screwed by trips, slips, & rule violations that cause our team to fall behind. Give them proper direction constructively and civilly and don't forget we're all in the same boat if it sinks (I doubt it ever will).

With that said, Biden screwed this up BIG TIME IMO. We had racers holding this baton and the two before him made no exit plan. So now that we are executing an exit plan (if we can call it that), who else is there to look at but the one calling the shots? and don't say he's cleaning up the previous administration's mess and trying to keep with a timeline desired by the American people or that he just became President and the War was a 20-year thing. When you run for president you should be prepared in advance to handle everything that job entails. Meaning you had better have some prior damn experience or knowledge. He wasn't taken off guard with this, It doesn't take access to US intelligence to see a power vacuum getting filled. Look at Iraq, wasn't that like Yesterday? ISIL hopscotched through bodies outline in chalk shortly after that exit.

And to think there are American's still out there with Troops flying home over their heads.

Yea, sucks that Biden couldn't read the future and know that the Afghan army would fold so quickly. I did admire the fact that Biden didn't blame intelligence the way that Trump would have. I wouldn't compare Afghanistan to Iraq BTW. In Iraq, we were mostly backing the good guys. In Afghanistan, we backed the weak dudes. But I still haven't heard any viable options that we could have pursued that would have made the exit easier. None. Just second second guessing...

I wasn't making a comparison to Iraq. I was talking about historical evidence of what happens when there is a power vacuum. My issue is not with the exit, it's with not making sure every American is out before things move way beyond control.

Many of those Americans have Afghani family and didn’t/don’t want to leave.

 

[Gospel]

I wasn't making a comparison to Iraq. I was talking about historical evidence of what happens when there is a power vacuum. My issue is not with the exit, it's with not making sure every American is out before things move way beyond control.

Many of those Americans have Afghani family and didn’t/don’t want to leave.

=/= all of them.

And it's obvious I'm talking about the Americans that want to leave. I always assume we're adults here and can read between lines so pardon the edit.

 

[Elixir]

I wasn't making a comparison to Iraq. I was talking about historical evidence of what happens when there is a power vacuum. My issue is not with the exit, it's with not making sure every American is out before things move way beyond control.

Many of those Americans have Afghani family and didn’t/don’t want to leave.

=/= all of them.

And it's obvious I'm talking about the Americans that want to leave. I always assume we're adults here and can read between lines so pardon the edit.

Of course some are “stuck”. My point is that nobody really knows how many there are or who they are. We do know that they are relatively few. I am cautiously optimistic that all or nearly all who want to leave will be able to do so.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I wasn't making a comparison to Iraq. I was talking about historical evidence of what happens when there is a power vacuum. My issue is not with the exit, it's with not making sure every American is out before things move way beyond control.

Many of those Americans have Afghani family and didn’t/don’t want to leave.

=/= all of them.

And it's obvious I'm talking about the Americans that want to leave. I always assume we're adults here and can read between lines so pardon the edit.

And it sounded like conventional means to evacuate them weren't options, so the US is looking at alternate means. If they are picking people by the dozen, that is difficult to justify holding an airport at much greater risk of attack to troops than strategic withdrawal of Americans in particular areas. This is by no means clean or the optimal way to move forward, but we also don't want Biden blabbing about how the US military, with the help of (can you believe it) The Taliban, to get these stragglers our safely.

Jebus, had the Taliban played ball like this in 2001, there would have been no invasion of Afghanistan. And maybe that is a lesson they learned.

Of all things that has occurred, the most unlikely expected outcome was Taliban support for the withdrawal of Americans, as in the Taliban were actively involved in the process. Who the heck saw that coming?

 

[Gospel]

=/= all of them.

And it's obvious I'm talking about the Americans that want to leave. I always assume we're adults here and can read between lines so pardon the edit.

And it sounded like conventional means to evacuate them weren't options, so the US is looking at alternate means. If they are picking people by the dozen, that is difficult to justify holding an airport at much greater risk of attack to troops than strategic withdrawal of Americans in particular areas. This is by no means clean or the optimal way to move forward, but we also don't want Biden blabbing about how the US military, with the help of (can you believe it) The Taliban, to get these stragglers our safely.

Jebus, had the Taliban played ball like this in 2001, there would have been no invasion of Afghanistan. And maybe that is a lesson they learned.

Of all things that has occurred, the most unlikely expected outcome was Taliban support for the withdrawal of Americans, as in the Taliban were actively involved in the process. Who the heck saw that coming?

The same Taliban that stood in the way of the US getting to Al-Qaeda and fought the US Tooth and nail as the main target in this 20-year war. The same Taliban that was in charge of Afghanistan where the 911 attack was planned under their watch is to be trusted with getting American's out safely?

The same withdrawal that was in he works since Obama was president, talked about the whole Trump presidency, and with roughly 6000 Americans to get out he couldn't manage to get all of them out in 6 months but was able to get 100,000's out in 17 days? Like Biden would say "Common man".

 

[Elixir]

=/= all of them.

And it's obvious I'm talking about the Americans that want to leave. I always assume we're adults here and can read between lines so pardon the edit.

And it sounded like conventional means to evacuate them weren't options, so the US is looking at alternate means. If they are picking people by the dozen, that is difficult to justify holding an airport at much greater risk of attack to troops than strategic withdrawal of Americans in particular areas. This is by no means clean or the optimal way to move forward, but we also don't want Biden blabbing about how the US military, with the help of (can you believe it) The Taliban, to get these stragglers our safely.

Jebus, had the Taliban played ball like this in 2001, there would have been no invasion of Afghanistan. And maybe that is a lesson they learned.

Of all things that has occurred, the most unlikely expected outcome was Taliban support for the withdrawal of Americans, as in the Taliban were actively involved in the process. Who the heck saw that coming?

If the Taliban had played ball in 2001, Afghan women and girls would still be forbidden to show their faces or go to school.
As an aside, it is folly to expect “all” who wish to leave to be evacuated. That is not real life. Some people are actually ambivalent about leaving.

 

[Gospel]

=/= all of them.

And it's obvious I'm talking about the Americans that want to leave. I always assume we're adults here and can read between lines so pardon the edit.

Of course some are “stuck”. My point is that nobody really knows how many there are or who they are. We do know that they are relatively few. I am cautiously optimistic that all or nearly all who want to leave will be able to do so.

I can respect that, I'm just pissed and confused about all this. Believe me when I say I agree with both you and Jimmy in your overall views. I'm just..gobsmacked.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

=/= all of them.

And it's obvious I'm talking about the Americans that want to leave. I always assume we're adults here and can read between lines so pardon the edit.

And it sounded like conventional means to evacuate them weren't options, so the US is looking at alternate means. If they are picking people by the dozen, that is difficult to justify holding an airport at much greater risk of attack to troops than strategic withdrawal of Americans in particular areas. This is by no means clean or the optimal way to move forward, but we also don't want Biden blabbing about how the US military, with the help of (can you believe it) The Taliban, to get these stragglers our safely.

Jebus, had the Taliban played ball like this in 2001, there would have been no invasion of Afghanistan. And maybe that is a lesson they learned.

Of all things that has occurred, the most unlikely expected outcome was Taliban support for the withdrawal of Americans, as in the Taliban were actively involved in the process. Who the heck saw that coming?

The same Taliban that stood in the way of the US getting to Al-Qaeda and fought the US Tooth and nail as the main target in this 20-year war. The same Taliban that was in charge of Afghanistan where the 911 attack was planned under their watch is to be trusted with getting American's out safely?

Yeah, politics is fucking weird at times. The Taliban actually assisted in either the transportation or security of transportation of some Americans. As Administration Officials noted, the Taliban wasn't doing this for us, but for themselves. It was in their own interest.

The same withdrawal that was in he works since Obama was president, talked about the whole Trump presidency, and with roughly 6000 Americans to get out he couldn't manage to get all of them out in 6 months but was able to get 100,000's out in 17 days? Like Biden would say "Common man".

The issue is transportation to the airport. Where people were in the nation. And the known threat to Americans standing out. We have allegedly 100 to 200 Americans in Afghanistan that don't want to be there. That is both too high and surprisingly small. We need to get them out and that'll require heavy lifting, which is hopefully occurring without much notice.

The staging of the evacuation was messed up, but again, no one saw the Afghan Army dropping weapons immediately either. That complicated things greatly. But all things being equal, this ended much better than it was looking like it would. Low bar, but it is still a bar.

 

[ZiprHead]

I wasn't making a comparison to Iraq. I was talking about historical evidence of what happens when there is a power vacuum. My issue is not with the exit, it's with not making sure every American is out before things move way beyond control.

But how could he have stopped that? There is no magical transportation system that transports 200,000 people out of a country overnight. We had been drawing down our forces for years. Trump drew them down to 2,500. Once we started the final withdraw, the Taliban struck faster that we could withdraw all our people. Even if Afghanistan had an ocean where transportation would have been easier and faster, it's impossible to withdraw all people at the same time.

I don't give a shit. Bush, Trump, Obama & Biden's decisions all lead to American's being left behind in Afghanistan in 2021. Just because the withdrawal is both necessary and may have been done as best as Biden could have done doesn't mean I should be like "oh well" to those left behind.

Okay, so what would you have done?

 

[Gospel]

I don't give a shit. Bush, Trump, Obama & Biden's decisions all lead to American's being left behind in Afghanistan in 2021. Just because the withdrawal is both necessary and may have been done as best as Biden could have done doesn't mean I should be like "oh well" to those left behind.

Okay, so what would you have done?

If I was In Bush Jr.'s shoes:

a) I wouldn't have entered Iraq on a fake ass revenge quest in the first place creating a power vacuum for Isis to exploit. I would have told American's the truth such as America did stupid shit in the middle east that upset some crazy people and those crazy people attacked us.

b) I would have weighed the consequences of entering Afghanistan vs our losses on 911 and decided that targeting Osama Bin Ladin would have been more efficient while working through allies (especially establishing a relationship with Iran) to return to the democracy it once was (or came very close to being) and through them, push for change in Afghanistan

If I was in Obama shoes:

a) I would have killed Osama bin Ladin (like he did) however I also would have pressured Pakistan to put in some work (for harboring Osama) making them act as support for Saudi Arabian whom I'd demand fix their relationship with Iran ASAP. Both Iran and Saudi Arabia would use Afghanistan as the proxy to build that relationship. In other words do what America does best, incite a revolution and support the uprising but this time actually pick the right fucking side.

If I was in Biden's shoes:

I do what he's doing right now except making Sarah Palin's quote "palling around with terrorists" a true statement about my administration. I'd also leave Afghanistan like he's doing however I wouldn't by all means necessary leave until every American who wanted to leave is gone. I mean we've gone into countries without giving a shit what our allies say so why do we give a shit about what we agreed upon with our enemies? The exit wouldn't have been a negotiation (nor needed to be one) if we'd stopped making stupid ass choices in the middle east. The Arab world would be much more embracing than they already are if we'd stop being hypocrites. Just look at Israel and the Palestine situation. We're too busy getting blow jobs from a bunch of Yahoo's than to recognize that if things were handled correctly, to begin with, we wouldn't have so many enemies in the middle east.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I don't give a shit. Bush, Trump, Obama & Biden's decisions all lead to American's being left behind in Afghanistan in 2021. Just because the withdrawal is both necessary and may have been done as best as Biden could have done doesn't mean I should be like "oh well" to those left behind.

The State Dept had been warning US citizens in country since March. What kept them from leaving between March and August? Nothing. In fact, we had US citizens going to Afghanistan during that timeframe. What’s stopping US citizens from traveling to a neighboring country and going into Afghanistan via surface transportation now?
Point is, at some point in time we all have to take some personal responsibility. No one can save you from yourself if you’re hellbent on putting yourself in a dangerous situation.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I don't give a shit. Bush, Trump, Obama & Biden's decisions all lead to American's being left behind in Afghanistan in 2021. Just because the withdrawal is both necessary and may have been done as best as Biden could have done doesn't mean I should be like "oh well" to those left behind.

The State Dept had been warning US citizens in country since March. What kept them from leaving between March and August? Nothing. In fact, we had US citizens going to Afghanistan during that timeframe. What’s stopping US citizens from traveling to a neighboring country and going into Afghanistan via surface transportation now?
Point is, at some point in time we all have to take some personal responsibility. No one can save you from yourself if you’re hellbent on putting yourself in a dangerous situation.

Personal responsibility from Americans? You mean the same kind of people asking for vaccines *after* being hospitalized with covid?

 

[Harry Bosch]

I don't give a shit. Bush, Trump, Obama & Biden's decisions all lead to American's being left behind in Afghanistan in 2021. Just because the withdrawal is both necessary and may have been done as best as Biden could have done doesn't mean I should be like "oh well" to those left behind.

The State Dept had been warning US citizens in country since March. What kept them from leaving between March and August? Nothing. In fact, we had US citizens going to Afghanistan during that timeframe. What’s stopping US citizens from traveling to a neighboring country and going into Afghanistan via surface transportation now?
Point is, at some point in time we all have to take some personal responsibility. No one can save you from yourself if you’re hellbent on putting yourself in a dangerous situation.

Yea, that's a great point. I can't understand why Americans keep going into dangerous countries for the fun of it, and then expecting the military to bail them out. I get it, some of them are there to try to do good. But we can't sabotage our foreign policy to go after the few who willing put themselves in dangerous situations.

 

[J842P]

The staging of the evacuation was messed up, but again, no one saw the Afghan Army dropping weapons immediately either. That complicated things greatly. But all things being equal, this ended much better than it was looking like it would. Low bar, but it is still a bar.

Yeah, the people having conniption fits about "the exit" are basically the people that haven't been paying attention at all.

The simplest explanation: the government really believed its own bullshit regarding the ANA. They thought they would be able to hold out for at least a few months, if not years. Turns out they got about a week, and it only cost them a couple trillion dollars.

Basically, the exit went about as well, and in a lot of ways better, than pretty much the entire war. So I find it hard to take people howling about the exit and how terrible it was very seriously.

 

[Elixir]

I don't give a shit. Bush, Trump, Obama & Biden's decisions all lead to American's being left behind in Afghanistan in 2021. Just because the withdrawal is both necessary and may have been done as best as Biden could have done doesn't mean I should be like "oh well" to those left behind.

The State Dept had been warning US citizens in country since March. What kept them from leaving between March and August? Nothing. In fact, we had US citizens going to Afghanistan during that timeframe. What’s stopping US citizens from traveling to a neighboring country and going into Afghanistan via surface transportation now?
Point is, at some point in time we all have to take some personal responsibility. No one can save you from yourself if you’re hellbent on putting yourself in a dangerous situation.

Yea, that's a great point. I can't understand why Americans keep going into dangerous countries for the fun of it, and then expecting the military to bail them out.

Agree wholeheartedly. I doubt that most of the Americans remaining in Afghanistan right now share Gospel's view about their situation.
Some decided long ago that they weren't leaving, come Taliban or high water. Others were probably procrastinating about whether or not to leave without their ineligible family members or Significant Others, and that decision has now been taken out of their hands.
Still others were probably intending to leave all along, but overestimated the time it would take for the Taliban to seize the Country.
The "I don't give a damn, git 'em all out!" solution/mentality just doesn't fit the situation on the ground.

 

[SLD]

I wasn't making a comparison to Iraq. I was talking about historical evidence of what happens when there is a power vacuum. My issue is not with the exit, it's with not making sure every American is out before things move way beyond control.

Many of those Americans have Afghani family and didn’t/don’t want to leave.

=/= all of them.

And it's obvious I'm talking about the Americans that want to leave. I always assume we're adults here and can read between lines so pardon the edit.

None of them wanted to leave. They were warned months ago to get out. They didn’t for whatever reason, but certainly not because they couldn’t.