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Ah ha! You can't explain X, therefore God!

No - I do not think that.
I'm on record (repeatedly) as a staunch opponent of the idea that either side can claim to be the default truth unless and until someone proves otherwise.
My experience is mostly atheists/atheism claiming to be the default truth with zero burden of proof.

...It is one of many possibilities that you have failed to rule out.

I don't have to rule them out. They are completely irrelevant to me.

...There's no reason why anyone should accept your claims when you haven't even attempted to rule out other possibilities.

We're not trading possible ideas here.

If one idea is actually true and all others are just interesting 'possibilities' I'm not obligated to politely admit that those possibilities might be equally true out of some misguided, post-modern sense of fairplay.

Exchanging ideas is nice but this is a contest of ideas. Atheism versus Theism.

We can't borh be right.

Of course not. I even showed why you are wrong; and that you can't rule out a large number of specific ways in which you could be wrong. So it's both possible and demonstrable that you are wrong.

But you are also wrong about atheism not being the default position. You can rule out the FSM, because it's just a bunch of made up stuff that there's absolutely no reason to think is true. You can rule out all gods in the same way.

I am most certainly not suggesting that all possibilities must be given equal weight, or that it is unfair to discard those that are untrue. But it is unreasonable to discard possibilities that haven't been ruled out. IF you know the true answer, then all other conflicting possibilities ARE ruled out. But you don't know you have the answer while other possibilities remain open.

You don't seem to have any grasp on what it actually means to know something.
 
Are you a solipsist?


No, I'm a Baconian and whereas empirical evidence and verificationism might work in many mundane areas, metaphysics isn't one of them. Bacon understood that metaphysics is not conducive to logical positivism.

The non-theist can posit a past eternal universe in order to try and avoid an uncaused First Cause but that is a form of special pleading - not a properly basic belief.

Special pleading is that ANY explanation should be held as truth while not supported by evidens.

We have evidens for big bang. We have no evidens for any theory of what happened before.

So neither is there for your "god" theory.

Its that simple,
 
I'm still waiting to learn how the universe can lose energy. And while we're at it, how does a magic spaceman get energy?
 
Is not - it's a claim, a belief.


Yeah, it's possible reality does not exist, and we are all making a horrible mistake. Sure. Ignore the laughter when we read the idea that reality doesn't exist.

Yes, I agree it's a laughable idea but there isn't an empirical way for someone to prove to another person that what they think of as physical reality actually does exist - as opposed to being some holographic simulation.

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Yeah, it's possible reality does not exist, and we are all making a horrible mistake. Sure. Ignore the laughter when we read the idea that reality doesn't exist.

Yes, I agree it's a laughable idea but there isn't an empirical way for someone to prove to another person that what they think of as physical reality actually does exist - as opposed to being some holographic simulation.

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A "holographic simulation" also requires a real world. so why not just cut out the unnecessary "holographic simulation" crap?
 
depends on who your audience is
 
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Yeah, it's possible reality does not exist, and we are all making a horrible mistake. Sure. Ignore the laughter when we read the idea that reality doesn't exist.

Yes, I agree it's a laughable idea but there isn't an empirical way for someone to prove to another person that what they think of as physical reality actually does exist - as opposed to being some holographic simulation.

So you agree that the idea that reality does not exist is silly. What you want to argue about is the nature of that reality. The sound of moving goal posts!

Back to Descartes. "I think, therefore I am".
 
Trying to level everything to just claims and beliefs won’t make the Gawd-thing (whatever it is) seem plausible.

That phenomenal reality is apparent is enough. That it seems physical, and taking it as physical, works out extremely well. Not so with fantasies about eternal somethings and “why” questions.

Imagine a guy marveling at a tree and wondering “Why THIS tree, just now, just here?” Is he asking a meaningful question, or is he distracted from the actual wonders of existence? The tree is a marvelous phenomenon, as are all, but he’s missing why that’s so with his “why” line of questioning, trying to find an intention where there isn’t one.
 
...Imagine a guy marveling at a tree and wondering “Why THIS tree, just now, just here?” Is he asking a meaningful question, or is he distracted from the actual wonders of existence?

"...distracted from the actual wonders of existence"

Don't you mean distracted BY the wonders of existence?

...The tree is a marvelous phenomenon, as are all, but he’s missing why that’s so with his “why” line of questioning, trying to find an intention where there isn’t one.

"...a marvelous phenomenon". LOL

Words like marvel and phenomenon and wondrous give rise to many existential why questions.
 
I'm not belatedly agreeing to that - I have never thought otherwise.

...The sound of moving goal posts!

What goal posts have been moved?


You posted:
"The claim that the universe has always existed is likewise a belief."

Now the Universe means EVERYTHING. Including if they exist, Gods. Parmenides: "Nothing comes from nothing. So something has always existed". We are just arguing about what existed.
 
I'm not belatedly agreeing to that - I have never thought otherwise.



What goal posts have been moved?


You posted:
"The claim that the universe has always existed is likewise a belief."

Now the Universe means EVERYTHING. Including if they exist, Gods. Parmenides: "Nothing comes from nothing. So something has always existed". We are just arguing about what existed.

Of course, we don't know for sure that Parmenides's premise is correct. But we do know that if it is false, and something can come from nothing, this cannot logically be the result of something. EITHER the universe contains at least some eternal component(s), OR something can come from nothing. In neither case does positing a specific entity help to determine which case is correct, nor does it help us to grasp the reasons why things happened, or to establish a history for the universe. So, as I said before, we don't know the answer to the question 'Why is there something rather than nothing', but we DO know that 'because god(s)' ISN'T an answer to that question - it's just an unnecessary and un-evidenced additional layer of complexity.

We have a few proposals to consider:

1) The total mass-energy of the universe has always existed; But the Big Bang forms a boundary before which we cannot determine any details about what form that mass-energy took
2) The total mass-energy of the universe began to exist at or before the Big Bang, as a completely spontaneous event, which cannot have a cause by definition, as there was nothing to cause it.
3) Not only mass-energy, but space-time itself began to exist at the Big Bang. It is nonsensical to even discuss a 'before' or a 'cause', as these things cannot exist without time.
4) A part of the universe has always existed, and acted to create mass-energy from nothing other than itself; This contravenes the first law of thermodynamics, but we are assuming that the first law didn't apply at some point. The Big Bang forms a boundary before which we cannot determine any details, so it is possible that the laws of physics were sufficiently different to allow this to occur.
5) The part of the universe in (4) above was an intelligent entity that had a purpose for creating the rest of the universe. That intelligent entity then ceased to interact with the rest of the universe, and/or ceased to exist.
6) The part of the universe in (4) above was an intelligent entity that had a purpose for creating the rest of the universe. That intelligent entity continues to observe the rest of the universe to this day, and is really keen that we don't eat the wrong foods or masturbate, but is pretty 'meh' on the idea of rape, genocide, torture and slavery. We know of this entity through the writings of bronze and iron age peoples from one small area of the Middle East, and despite having no other evidence for its existence, or even for the existence of any possible mechanism by which it could interact with or observe matter at human scales, we assume that it is really real.

These six ideas are not exhaustive; Nor are they equally plausible. 1, 2 and 3 are all pretty parsimonious. 4, 5, and 6 all rely on the assumed existence of unexplained and un-evidenced entities for which there is no explanation as to why they remain undiscovered. 5 and 6 rely on the existence of intelligence without biology, which is something we can reasonably infer to be impossible - intelligence has only been observed in highly complex biological systems, that require very specific arrangements of mass-energy. Such complex arrangements can develop from pre-existing matter and energy over long periods of time by the action of natural selection, but their spontaneous existence without any such evolution is extraordinarily unlikely; their spontaneous existence from nothing at all is even less plausible, and the claim that this occurred is an extraordinary claim, for which we would need very strong evidence indeed, if we are to accept it. Supporters of this idea do not, however, provide strong evidence. They instead declare that evidence of any kind is not needed, and that belief in the absence of evidence is somehow virtuous. That, not to put too fine a point on it, is bullshit. And that they don't take the same approach to the hundreds of equally extraordinary, but different and incompatible, truth claims subscribed to by other religious claimants strongly suggests that they know it.
 
Intentional first cause arguments would be more viable if there were any evidence for such a causal agent outside of that very same bootstrapping argument of its existence. But observations of present day events show that there is no need to invoke such a being to account for any observations. The same theists who cite first cause arguments for their god also claim that their god is presently acting upon on earthly events all the time. If there were such divine activity occurring today, it should be much easier to make observations that prove its existence than resorting to examining something occurring at a beginning of time. Yet, they resort to origins arguments instead.
 
The same theists who cite first cause arguments for their god also claim that their god is presently acting upon on earthly events all the time. If there were such divine activity occurring today, it should be much easier to make observations that prove its existence than resorting to examining something occurring at a beginning of time. Yet, they resort to origins arguments instead.

Immanence.The claim God is sustaining all of material reality in all its details. The problem here is then that God is involved in sustaining the existence of all moral evil. Which rather contradicts the claim the God is a personal being who is morally good, and who hates evil.
 
"...distracted from the actual wonders of existence"

Don't you mean distracted BY the wonders of existence?

...The tree is a marvelous phenomenon, as are all, but he’s missing why that’s so with his “why” line of questioning, trying to find an intention where there isn’t one.

"...a marvelous phenomenon". LOL

Words like marvel and phenomenon and wondrous give rise to many existential why questions.
Yeah, like the northern lights, great floods, lightning, supernovas, comets, etc...

We are running out of unexplained phenomenon.
 
The same theists who cite first cause arguments for their god also claim that their god is presently acting upon on earthly events all the time. If there were such divine activity occurring today, it should be much easier to make observations that prove its existence than resorting to examining something occurring at a beginning of time. Yet, they resort to origins arguments instead.

Immanence.The claim God is sustaining all of material reality in all its details. The problem here is then that God is involved in sustaining the existence of all moral evil. Which rather contradicts the claim the God is a personal being who is morally good, and who hates evil.
Yes, A god is sustaining the murderer's bullet as it enters the victims temple, sustaining the knife and hand as it slits open a throat.

Religion sounds more like programming, just make it do what you want.
 
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