Alec Baldwin Fatally Shoots Crew Member With Prop Firearm, Authorities Say

[TomC]

After reading the thread and news reports and thinking about it can someone answer the question - what possible reason is there for a prop gun to ever have a live round?

?? Totally agree. What possible reason is there for a pop gun to ever have a live round within 10 miles of it on a movie set? Very odd.

I think that was explained way back up thread.
People like Baldwin didn't want to do business with experienced folks who belonged to the union. So they made do with inexperienced scabs who would work for them. One of them put a live round in the gun Baldwin shot his own coworkers with.

Oh well, at least Baldwin didn't have to pay scale.
Tom

 

[unapologetic]

I read somewhere that movies all CG gunshots now.

 

[EricH]

Was there ever a definitive answer on how the live bullets ended up in the gun?

They were brought on the set by the armourer, and were sourced from her father, who had also worked as an armourer. The live rounds were present on the set before the Seth Kenny provided rounds even arrived on the set.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Was there ever a definitive answer on how the live bullets ended up in the gun?

They were brought on the set by the armourer, and were sourced from her father, who had also worked as an armourer. The live rounds were present on the set before the Seth Kenny provided rounds even arrived on the set.

Yep, that's the how. Tom explained the who above. The question to me is the Why? Why the hell would anyone bring live rounds to a place where live rounds cannot be used? Makes no sense.

 

[thebeave]

Damn. This whole thing was pretty messed up on so many levels:

‘Rust’ Ammunition Supplier Seth Kenney Tells Court Accused Armorer’s Father Behind Efforts To Pin Blame On Him For Live Ammo On Set

 

[unapologetic]

Acording to the Wikipedia write-up, there is an unconfirmed report that crew members took a few guns off-set to shoot at beer cans with live ammo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_shooting_incident#Preparations_for_the_rehearsal

According to a statement given to TheWrap by an anonymous insider, several crew members took a number of prop guns off-set that day, including the firearm involved in the incident, to pass the time shooting at beer cans with live ammunition.

 

[bilby]

One article I read a while back claimed the company that supplied the blank rounds to the film accidentally included some live rounds in with the mix, but I find that hard to believe.

Not only is that very hard to believe, but in the unlikely event that it occurred, it would be trivially easy to spot; Blank rounds don't look much like live ones, and any armorer who can't spot the difference at a glance shouldn't be working with guns at all.

Live ammunition has a bullet in the end of the shell:


Blank ammo doesn't include a bullet, so the end of the brass shell is typically crimped to prevent the propellant from spilling out:

You can get blank rifle rounds that include a "fake bullet" that disintegrates in the barrel when fired, but even these don't look much like live rounds, and I have never seen such a thing in a handgun blank (the barrel is too short, and wouldn't allow enough time for the "bullet" to fully fragment).

 

[TV and credit cards]

So it looks like dummy ammo has a bullet with no charge or primer. The primer end being dimpled would be the telltale. The bullet necessary for appearance on film.

 

[thebeave]

One article I read a while back claimed the company that supplied the blank rounds to the film accidentally included some live rounds in with the mix, but I find that hard to believe.

Not only is that very hard to believe, but in the unlikely event that it occurred, it would be trivially easy to spot; Blank rounds don't look much like live ones, and any armorer who can't spot the difference at a glance shouldn't be working with guns at all.

Live ammunition has a bullet in the end of the shell:
View attachment 45602

Blank ammo doesn't include a bullet, so the end of the brass shell is typically crimped to prevent the propellant from spilling out:
View attachment 45603
You can get blank rifle rounds that include a "fake bullet" that disintegrates in the barrel when fired, but even these don't look much like live rounds, and I have never seen such a thing in a handgun blank (the barrel is too short, and wouldn't allow enough time for the "bullet" to fully fragment).

That's how I've always understood blanks to look like, but I've also heard that some blanks look exactly like a real bullet, but have a small BB inside (instead of gunpowder) that rattles when you shake it. Those are probably used in closeups, when you need something realistic looking, but not dangerous. The armorer is supposed to shake the bullet prior to putting it in a gun or handing it to an actor.

 

[bilby]

So it looks like dummy ammo has a bullet with no charge or primer. The primer end being dimpled would be the telltale. The bullet necessary for appearance on film.

View attachment 45606

Yeah, dummy ammo looks like live ammo until you glance at the base of the shell. I can't see that there would be much call to load dummy ammo into a gun for a movie shoot though, except perhaps in a close-up cut-away. Dummy ammo is for looking realistic in scenes when it isn't in a gun.

It only exists because blank ammo doesn't look anything like live ammo.

 

[Elixir]

I keep reading "Baldwin finally shoots crew member".
Even though I know what it actually says, I automatically wonder why he did that.
Is there a word for that?

 

[bilby]

I keep reading "Baldwin finally shoots crew member".
Even though I know what it actually says, I automatically wonder why he did that.
Is there a word for that?

I want to say "Aphasia", but maybe that's a sap-sucking insect...

 

[TomC]

So it looks like dummy ammo has a bullet with no charge or primer. The primer end being dimpled would be the telltale. The bullet necessary for appearance on film.

View attachment 45606

Yeah, dummy ammo looks like live ammo until you glance at the base of the shell. I can't see that there would be much call to load dummy ammo into a gun for a movie shoot though, except perhaps in a close-up cut-away. Dummy ammo is for looking realistic in scenes when it isn't in a gun.

It only exists because blank ammo doesn't look anything like live ammo.

I wouldn't know the difference, much less at a glance.

Maybe the problem is that Baldwin entrusted someone who didn't know any more about it than I do? Then fired the gun?

I'm pretty sure it's that. Baldwin didn't want a union staffer, so he got what he wanted. A non-union scab to load the gun.

Guess what?
It didn't turn out to be the business bonanza he thought it would.

Ya know what else. The staffers who died and got messed up really badly also knew that the person loading the gun was an inexperienced scab. They also picked the situation. They knew about what was going on.
Tom

 

[DBT]

After reading the thread and news reports and thinking about it can someone answer the question - what possible reason is there for a prop gun to ever have a live round?

There is no reason. An armorer is hired to ensure gun safety, but in this instance they failed at their job and their duty of care.

Was there ever a definitive answer on how the live bullets ended up in the gun? One article I read a while back claimed the company that supplied the blank rounds to the film accidentally included some live rounds in with the mix, but I find that hard to believe. Regardless, the armorer didn't do her job (which honestly doesn't sound all that difficult). Its disgraceful, and she got only a 3 year sentence. Drunk drivers who kill usually get a harsher sentence, so it seems she should have got at least double or triple (or more) than what she ended up getting.

As much as I don't care for Alec Baldwin, from what I've read, he shouldn't be held responsible except, perhaps, from a legal perspective as the executive producer ("the buck stops here"). Yes, he couldv'e/shouldv'e checked the gun himself, but at some point don't you have to rely on the production team to guarantee safety? Is an actor supposed to check to make sure the brakes on a car he drives in a film are in tip top shape every time he gets in, even if the film's mechanic's just checked them himself?

I heard that the cast and crew had live firing sessions after work, so presumably someone brought live ammo onto the set and the armorer got careless and let one or more live rounds get mixed in with the blanks and dummy rounds.

 

[unapologetic]

I heard that the cast and crew had live firing sessions after work,

According to the Wikipedia write-up, it was between takes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_shooting_incident#Preparations_for_the_rehearsal

"According to a statement given to TheWrap by an anonymous insider, several crew members took a number of prop guns off-set that day, including the firearm involved in the incident, to pass the time shooting at beer cans with live ammunition."

 

[DBT]

I heard that the cast and crew had live firing sessions after work,

According to the Wikipedia write-up, it was between takes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_shooting_incident#Preparations_for_the_rehearsal

"According to a statement given to TheWrap by an anonymous insider, several crew members took a number of prop guns off-set that day, including the firearm involved in the incident, to pass the time shooting at beer cans with live ammunition."

The documentary I saw said they were rehearsing the scene, and they had gone through it a couple of times before the live round came around to firing position. Presumably five dummy rounds with one live round in the mix. Baldwin was handed the revolver and told it was safe. He should have checked for himself, but it's a movie set and actors may not be gun savvy.

 

[EricH]

Baldwin was handed the revolver and told it was safe. He should have checked for himself, but it's a movie set and actors may not be gun savvy.

I heard him talking and he doesn't know much about guns. A dead giveaway is when people refer to magazines as clips. The army surplus M1 carbine I hunted with as a teenager allowed one to use a clip to quickly load the magazine in the gun, and you can find clips to quickly load selected revolvers for competition shooting, but nothing made in 19th century used such clips to my knowledge. And the magazine in a revolver is usually referred to as the cylinder, not a magazine.

It is the armourer's responsibility, in my opinion, to educate the actors on how the gun works, and show them how to verify that there is no live ammunition in the gun before it is used in a scene. If you are going to be handling a real gun on set, you need to know the safety protocols for the weapon you are working with, and observe the safety protocols. Ignorance is not an excuse.

 

[EricH]

In addition to the above, I watched some video clips used during the first trial that apparently show Baldwin mishandling the revolver during the filming of other scenes on the set. In particular, it apparently shows Baldwin pointing the gun at the film crew and firing blanks in close proximity to the crew, as well as him shooting the gun in frustration after the director had called "cut" for a scene. I believe these videos are going to be used by the prosecution in the upcoming trial to try to establish a pattern of reckless behavior on Baldwin's part leading up to the fatal shooting. While it is the armourer's responsibility to teach and enforce safety protocols on the set, I believe Baldwin shares some of the responsibility for the accident.

 

[DBT]

Baldwin was handed the revolver and told it was safe. He should have checked for himself, but it's a movie set and actors may not be gun savvy.

I heard him talking and he doesn't know much about guns. A dead giveaway is when people refer to magazines as clips. The army surplus M1 carbine I hunted with as a teenager allowed one to use a clip to quickly load the magazine in the gun, and you can find clips to quickly load selected revolvers for competition shooting, but nothing made in 19th century used such clips to my knowledge. And the magazine in a revolver is usually referred to as the cylinder, not a magazine.

It is the armourer's responsibility, in my opinion, to educate the actors on how the gun works, and show them how to verify that there is no live ammunition in the gun before it is used in a scene. If you are going to be handling a real gun on set, you need to know the safety protocols for the weapon you are working with, and observe the safety protocols. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Some of those period single action revolvers are hard to check because the cylinder doesn't flip out and you can't see the primers. You load by flipping the little side latch and feed one round at a time through the slot while rotating the cylinder to the next empty chamber, and from the front the dummy rounds, unlike blanks, have realistic looking projectiles.

 

[DBT]

In addition to the above, I watched some video clips used during the first trial that apparently show Baldwin mishandling the revolver during the filming of other scenes on the set. In particular, it apparently shows Baldwin pointing the gun at the film crew and firing blanks in close proximity to the crew, as well as him shooting the gun in frustration after the director had called "cut" for a scene. I believe these videos are going to be used by the prosecution in the upcoming trial to try to establish a pattern of reckless behavior on Baldwin's part leading up to the fatal shooting. While it is the armourer's responsibility to teach and enforce safety protocols on the set, I believe Baldwin shares some of the responsibility for the accident.

Well, that's bad.