Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[ZiprHead]

About the author: "Charlie Heller is a member of the NYC-DSA Ecosocialist Working Group."

Of course he is.

As the largest socialist organization in the US, DSA faces two critical questions: What is the most promising strategy for building socialism in the 21st century? And what kind of organization must DSA become in order to carry it out?

Socialism in the 21st century? Where have I heard that before? Oh ...

Funny how that turned out.

 

[Derec]

[Robert Reich video]

What does that have to do with Venezuelan "Socialism for the 21st century"?

 

[Derec]

Is Marxism really that scary?

Given all the destruction Marxist ideology left in its wave in Eastern Europe, Cuba or China (think of the so-called "Cultural Revolution") etc., it'd say very much yes.

 

[Derec]

Overstimulated economy???

Remember all the stimulus spending originally due to the Pandemic? The extended unemployment benefits, extended child tax credits, the stimulus checks, etc. Spending that was continued well past the time the economy reopened? That led to the overstimulated economy that had already started experiencing increased inflation when Spendapalooza was debated. And yes I know, the supply chain crunch contributed to inflation, but so did excessive spending.

She didn't get into that issue, but if one is an expert on business management, one should have no trouble working out how to do that.

It is not the issue of logistics. It's a far more fundamental issue. Did she want to expropriate the rightful owners (Soviet Union style theft)? Or did she want to buy them out, which would be very, very expensive, given Amazon's market cap of almost $1.5T?

 

[Derec]

???

Oh, how quickly people forget.
Chavismo used the slogan "Socialism for the 21st Century".
Now Heller and his DSA are using a similar slogan.

No, Natural Gas Power Plants Are Not Clean - Union of Concerned Scientists -- they emit nitrogen oxides, a result of subjecting nitrogen and oxygen to high temperatures.

It's not perfectly clean, but then nothing is. it is far cleaner than coal though. Or car engines, which also use air and have high temperature combustion. I found an article on the Asthma Alley at Grauniad.

Daniel Chervoni looked out at the busy street from the small community park he tends as a gardener in the South Bronx and clenched his fist as another Fresh Direct diesel truck roared by, spewing exhaust as it took a popular short-cut through the neighborhood.
Residents inhale the emissions of the hundreds of daily trucks going in and out of the nearby Fresh Direct warehouse, and exhaust emitted by constant traffic on the four nearby highways, as well as from the printing presses of the Wall Street Journal, a parcel depot and sewage works not far away.

I feel the jab at the WSJ printing presses is kind of personal. But in any case, diesel engines have NOx emissions as well, plus particulates. Plus, exhausts from cars and trucks are a lot closer to people than the flue from a gas power plant.
If we are going to electrify ground transportation we need more electricity anyway. Life is a series of tradeoffs. Absolutism will not get us anywhere.

Although burning natgas (CH4) releases less CO2 per unit energy than burning coal (C), CH4 itself is also a greenhouse gas.

Indeed. All the more reason to build more gas pipelines to collect associated gas from oil fields instead of torching it, or even worse, venting it. But that would be against the articles of faith of ecomentalists that have declared natural gas more of an anathema than coal.

From "environmental racism", an effect more properly called "elementary classism", though many Americans find it easier to discuss race issues than class issues.

I know where it comes from. The second one makes more sense.

The problem is that upper-middle-class people are usually very good at getting electric powerplants built away from where they live, and nearer those who don't have much political clout - lower-middle-class and lower-class people.

Well, power plants require land. Even if there was no pollution, it'd make sense to build a plant where land prices are lower, all things being equal.

Consider the Dakota Access Pipeline -- it was rerouted away from Bismarck ND because of NIMBY protests, even though one would expect the Real Americans of that town to *love* to have a crude-oil pipeline run right next to their homes.

Not this shit again! We had that discussion when the NoDAPL protests and riots were happening in 2016.
The north of Bismarck route was rejected early in the process. There were no "NIMBY protests" there. It was rejected because it was the worse route - longer, went through more built up areas (where btw, also more Indians lived than in the virtually empty prairie) etc.
Even the lefty Snopes knows the claims are bullshit.

Both early reports and Army Corps of Engineers documents showed that an early, scrapped plan did propose a pipeline route north of Bismarck, but the Army Corps of Engineers opted to re-route it via Lake Oahe, citing a shorter pipeline, fewer water crossings, and reduced proximity to residential areas.

And from another article.

The North Dakota Public Service Commission (PSC) refuted allegations of environmental racism, saying that the Bismarck route proposal was never submitted to the agency because permits for it were denied by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers during its environmental assessment.
“The river crossing north of Bismarck was a proposed alternative considered by the [Dakota Access] company early in the routing process. This route was never included in the proposed route submitted to the PSC and therefore was never vetted or considered by us during our permitting process. It had been eliminated by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers during their environmental assessment," North Dakota Public Service Commission Chair Julie Fedorchak said in statement on Oct. 27.
"The final permitted route follows an existing pipeline corridor that has been previously disturbed,” added Fedorchak, who also serves as the "pipeline siting portfolio holder," that is, the person in charge of permitting the pipeline route.

This is just one of many pernicious lies spread by the DAPL opponents that people keep repeating without checking their facts or even stopping to think whether it makes any sense.

 

[Derec]

Oh noes!!! I bet those people actually drove cars and trucks while they were protesting.

They didn't, because the "NIMBY protests" lpetrich wrote about did not happen.

But people who are spewing slogans like "you can't drink oil, keep it in the soil" or "water is life, oil is death" have driven long distances. Many even flew from places like LA and even Hawaii. When the winter set in, they drove in tons of firewood, much of it from out of state. And in the end, they left mounds of trash, including many tons of human waste in the flood plain.

 

[ZiprHead]

[Robert Reich video]

What does that have to do with Venezuelan "Socialism for the 21st century"?

What does red herring Venezuelan socialism have to do with "socialism" in the United States?

 

[ZiprHead]

???

Oh, how quickly people forget.
Chavismo used the slogan "Socialism for the 21st Century".
Now Heller and his DSA are using a similar slogan.

Oh, bestill my beating heart! A similar slogan!

 

[Derec]

What does red herring Venezuelan socialism have to do with "socialism" in the United States?

Oh, bestill my beating heart! A similar slogan!

First of all, socialism should not be in scare quotes. Going back to RR, he is right that often "socialism" is used to attack public spending programs. However, groups like DSA, and people like Heller, are the real deal.
DSA Constitution & Bylaws

We are socialists because we share a vision of a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism, racial equality and non-oppressive relationships.

This is not what Reich was talking about. This is actual socialism, as in public ownership of the means of production. "Equitable distribution" is just a less eloquent way to say "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".

Second, about Venezuela/Chavismo and the slogan. Before it became evident how much the Bolivarian regime fucked up the Venezuelan economy, the Bolivarian Revolution and Hugo Chavez were very popular among US leftists, including on here. You can go back through the archives if you want (although quotes got fucked up in the process of archiving, so they are a bit hard to read).
So, I do not believe the use of the Bolivarian slogan is in any way coincidental on Heller's part.

 

[TomC]

Is Marxism really that scary?

Given all the destruction Marxist ideology left in its wave in Eastern Europe, Cuba or China (think of the so-called "Cultural Revolution") etc., it'd say very much yes.

As opposed to the destruction left by Capitalist ideology over the last couple of centuries?
Around the world.

Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

What does red herring Venezuelan socialism have to do with "socialism" in the United States?

Oh, bestill my beating heart! A similar slogan!

First of all, socialism should not be in scare quotes. Going back to RR, he is right that often "socialism" is used to attack public spending programs. However, groups like DSA, and people like Heller, are the real deal.
DSA Constitution & Bylaws

We are socialists because we share a vision of a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism, racial equality and non-oppressive relationships.

This is not what Reich was talking about. This is actual socialism, as in public ownership of the means of production. "Equitable distribution" is just a less eloquent way to say "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".

Second, about Venezuela/Chavismo and the slogan. Before it became evident how much the Bolivarian regime fucked up the Venezuelan economy, the Bolivarian Revolution and Hugo Chavez were very popular among US leftists, including on here. You can go back through the archives if you want (although quotes got fucked up in the process of archiving, so they are a bit hard to read).
So, I do not believe the use of the Bolivarian slogan is in any way coincidental on Heller's part.

Yes, let's leave everything in control of a few huge corporations who have undue influence over our lawmakers.

 

[Derec]

As opposed to the destruction left by Capitalist ideology over the last couple of centuries?
Around the world.

What are you talking about? Capitalism greatly increased standards of living and life expectancy around the world.

 

[Derec]

Yes, let's leave everything in control of a few huge corporations who have undue influence over our lawmakers.

I am for robust antitrust laws to ensure competition.

So for the record, do you support public ownership of means of production and other tenets of socialism?

 

[ZiprHead]

So for the record, do you support public ownership of means of production and other tenets of socialism?

In certain cases, yes. Our local metropolitan water system has been controlled by our city government since its inception. Our power is gotten to us from a corporation that must answer to a public utility board. Schools are public controlled. Certain insurances are provided by the government.

What's the problem?

 

[Derec]

In certain cases, yes. Our local metropolitan water system has been controlled by our city government since its inception. Our power is gotten to us from a corporation that must answer to a public utility board. Schools are public controlled. Certain insurances are provided by the government.

I am not talking about public schools and utilities. Although private schools exist as an alternative/competition. And for utilities, pipe infrastructure makes it a "natural monopoly" so it makes sense to have it run by municipal government. My water and sewer system is county, and you can tell by how badly the website is designed. Paying the water bill is an ordeal compared to the private company (which yes, is regulated by the state public service comission) that sells me electricity for example.

But I am talking more with the bulk of the overall economy. State-run grocery stores. State-run restaurants. State-run car factories. Etc.

Capitalism does not mean everything is private, just as socialism does not mean everything is public. It's about what the economy is dominated by.

 

[ZiprHead]

In certain cases, yes. Our local metropolitan water system has been controlled by our city government since its inception. Our power is gotten to us from a corporation that must answer to a public utility board. Schools are public controlled. Certain insurances are provided by the government.

I am not talking about public schools and utilities. Although private schools exist as an alternative/competition. And for utilities, pipe infrastructure makes it a "natural monopoly" so it makes sense to have it run by municipal government. My water and sewer system is county, and you can tell by how badly the website is designed. Paying the water bill is an ordeal compared to the private company (which yes, is regulated by the state public service comission) that sells me electricity for example.

But I am talking more with the bulk of the overall economy. State-run grocery stores. State-run restaurants. State-run car factories. Etc.

Ohio has state run liquor stores.

Capitalism does not mean everything is private, just as socialism does not mean everything is public. It's about what the economy is dominated by.

Really? Where does it say that?

 

[Gospel]

Capitalism does not mean everything is private, just as socialism does not mean everything is public. It's about what the economy is dominated by.

That sounds like something a commie would say.

 

[Gospel]

Ohio has state run liquor stores.

Wait what? If I were to guess where It would be, Columbus Ohio, but what?!?! What's the point? To make liquor more affordable? There is already a gang of cheap liquor out there.

 

[bilby]

As opposed to the destruction left by Capitalist ideology over the last couple of centuries?
Around the world.

What are you talking about? Capitalism greatly increased standards of living and life expectancy around the world.

What are you talking about? The widespread and abject misery caused by Capitalism was the inspiration for Marx to say "There's got to be a better way".

And it was the terror that communist revolutions inspired in the capitalists, that led them to make the concessions that greatly increased standards of living and life expectancy around the world. They sure as shit weren't planning to do that, until they grasped that the likely alternative was bloody chaos in which the workers would come after them with pitchforks, burning brands, and nooses.

The fact is that both Capitalism and Communism are a total fucking disaster for the average person, and that what is needed, to achieve a high standard of living and modern developed world life expectancy, is a mixed system, where the ownership of infrastructure and goods and services provision in cases where these are natural monopolies is public, and the provision of goods and non-infrastructural services in competitive markets is done by private businesses, under a framework of strong regulations that prevent monopolies from developing, and protect workers, the public, and the environment from the harm that purely profit-driven businesses would otherwise cause.

Both Capitalism and Communism, when left unchecked, lead to kleptocratic rule by the few, at the expense of the many.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Is Marxism really that scary?

Given all the destruction Marxist ideology left in its wave in Eastern Europe, Cuba or China (think of the so-called "Cultural Revolution") etc., it'd say very much yes.

As opposed to the destruction left by Capitalist ideology over the last couple of centuries?
Around the world.

Tom

I've been in a lot of countries.

I've seen an awful lot more damage from Marxism than from capitalism.

The clearest was the difference between West Berlin and East Berlin. They started on an equal footing--30 years later they were not remotely equal.

I don't have same-time visits to compare but what I saw of Taiwan was way ahead of my understanding of what China was like at the time.