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"Almost all terrorists are Muslim" derail split from "Rants"

If 911 wasn't terrorism then it wouldn't be terrorism for Israel to level Gaza.

I agree.

That is why I condemn both as forms of terrorism.

But if all we consider are intentions, as if they can be known, as some propose, then it is easy to conclude that 911 was not terrorism.

If the people who did it considered it a valid war tactic then it wasn't terrorism, to those who only consider intentions.

This is why I don't consider intentions. I consider the morality or moral justification of the action.

If the action is violent, and it terrorizes, and it can't be morally justified, then it is terrorism.
The problem with that definition is that terrorists can always morally justify it to themselves. That's why your definition is ridiculous. Nobody would be a terrorist, if one the requirements is that it can't be morally justified.

On the other hand, if you meant that an action is terrorism if it isn't morally justified to you, then you'[ve made a relativist definition based on your own opinion. A useful definition terrorism should not have to depend on your personal morality.
 
...If your target possesses what appears to be valid military value to your enemy, then it isn't an act of terrorism even if striking it scares the hell out of the population...

Then 911 was not terrorism.

Both the Pentagon and the WTC were valid military targets.
No, the WTC was not a valid military target. Generic economic value isn't enough to make something a military target. The fact that an army marches on its stomach does not make farmers combatants.

I am the one defining terrorism as unjustified violence that causes terror.
That definition implies that a serial rapist who makes women afraid to go outside is a terrorist. Is that what you mean to claim?

Others were claiming that magically inducing intent is the proper method to define terrorism.
No. Nobody was claiming that. Don't make up nonsense and impute it to your opponents. Your opinion that it takes magic to induce intent does not make magic any part of others' claim.

The others you're referring to propose to evaluate intent by means of evidence. Law courts do that every day when they decide whether a killer is guilty of murder or only of manslaughter. If you believe this to be impossible, does that mean you want the legal category of manslaughter abolished and you want a guy who accidentally ran over a kid because he stopped watching the road when he spilled his drink in his lap convicted of murder?

I was pointing out that if we look at intent then 911 was not terrorism.
Of course it was. The attackers obviously intended to murder noncombatants.

And 911 wasn't terrorism.

That is the conclusion looking at motives allows.

If I claim my motives are noble I can do many things if terrorism is defined by motives.
Why would you imagine that that follows? In the first place, motive is not the same thing as intent. Who said terrorism is defined by motive? In the second place, the definition specifies what the intent is, not whether the intent is noble, let alone whether somebody claims it's noble.

But if all we consider are intentions, as if they can be known, as some propose, then it is easy to conclude that 911 was not terrorism.

If the people who did it considered it a valid war tactic then it wasn't terrorism, to those who only consider intentions.
Why would you imagine that that follows either? The definition isn't about whether the perpetrator considers what he intends to do a valid war tactic; it's about whether what he intends to do is kill noncombatants.
 
Then 911 was not terrorism.

Both the Pentagon and the WTC were valid military targets.

No, the WTC was not a valid military target. Generic economic value isn't enough to make something a military target. The fact that an army marches on its stomach does not make farmers combatants.

The destruction of the WTC disrupted the entire economy. It caused the US Stock Market to lose value.

And depriving an army of food is also a valid military objective.

I am the one defining terrorism as unjustified violence that causes terror.

That definition implies that a serial rapist who makes women afraid to go outside is a terrorist. Is that what you mean to claim?

That is one end of the spectrum. Terrorism on the very small scale.

Others were claiming that magically inducing intent is the proper method to define terrorism.

No. Nobody was claiming that. Don't make up nonsense and impute it to your opponents. Your opinion that it takes magic to induce intent does not make magic any part of others' claim.

Of course nobody is admitting this is their claim.

But divining intentions is akin to magic.

The others you're referring to propose to evaluate intent by means of evidence. Law courts do that every day when they decide whether a killer is guilty of murder or only of manslaughter.

The intentions decided in courts don't go far beyond premeditation.

It is assumed terrorist attacks are premeditated.

I was pointing out that if we look at intent then 911 was not terrorism.
Of course it was. The attackers obviously intended to murder noncombatants.

They were merely collateral damage.

The intention was to weaken an enemy that was intruding into the internal politics of foreign lands.

So the intention was self defense.

When we play with intentions they can be twisted and never really known for certain.

In the first place, motive is not the same thing as intent.

Intentions are intertwined with motives.

If I intend to carry out some act of terrorism I must be motivated to do so.

In the second place, the definition specifies what the intent is, not whether the intent is noble, let alone whether somebody claims it's noble.

Some claim the US invasion and destruction of Iraq was not terrorism based on the claims of noble intentions on the part of the attacker.

So obviously some think all that is necessary to examine are claims by those who launch deliberate and massive attacks.

If the attacker claims they are simply defending themselves that is good enough for some.

The examination of intentions is just a can of worms with intransigent sides all claiming to know the true intentions.

The definition isn't about whether the perpetrator considers what he intends to do a valid war tactic; it's about whether what he intends to do is kill noncombatants.

If I use weapons of sufficient killing power in sufficient amounts that I know for certain I will kill many innocent civilians, have I intended to kill some innocent civilians?
 
If 911 wasn't terrorism then it wouldn't be terrorism for Israel to level Gaza.

I agree.

That is why I condemn both as forms of terrorism.

But if all we consider are intentions, as if they can be known, as some propose, then it is easy to conclude that 911 was not terrorism.

If the people who did it considered it a valid war tactic then it wasn't terrorism, to those who only consider intentions.

This is why I don't consider intentions. I consider the morality or moral justification of the action.

If the action is violent, and it terrorizes, and it can't be morally justified, then it is terrorism.

Foul!

You just said 911 wasn't terrorism. Now you say it is.

And if intentions don't matter then you have to remove the notion of self defense.
 
Because Israel's national objectives are NOT morally justifiable. Peace alone is attainable immediately through the dismantlement of its settlements, the withdrawal to its own internationally recognized borders and a commitment to respect both the sovereignty and the human rights of Palestinians. But Israel isn't seeking peace, Israel is seeking economic, political and military dominance. That is not a morally acceptable justification for the use of terrorism or for military force in general.

There's absolutely no reason to believe that dismantling the settlements would bring peace and every reason to believe it wouldn't.

Note how they always refer to the "occupied territory"--for deluded westerners this means a return to the 67 borders (not that they were anything but an armistice line in the first place, not real borders), the Arabs know this means all of Israel.
 
There's absolutely no reason to believe that dismantling the settlements would bring peace and every reason to believe it wouldn't.


Of course if all the disputed territory were gobbled up by Israeli settlements peace would reign free over all of Greater Israel.


I mean, if there's no dirty Arabs to sully the Holy Land everything would be okay, right?
 
I agree.

That is why I condemn both as forms of terrorism.

But if all we consider are intentions, as if they can be known, as some propose, then it is easy to conclude that 911 was not terrorism.

If the people who did it considered it a valid war tactic then it wasn't terrorism, to those who only consider intentions.

This is why I don't consider intentions. I consider the morality or moral justification of the action.

If the action is violent, and it terrorizes, and it can't be morally justified, then it is terrorism.

Foul!

You just said 911 wasn't terrorism. Now you say it is.

And if intentions don't matter then you have to remove the notion of self defense.

You simply can't follow the discussion. I never said 911 was morally justified, only that it is justified if all we consider are intentions. I think consideration of intentions is a can of worms and leads to nothing but argument. Who can claim to know the ultimate intention of any person who carries out an action? It is a guessing game. Even if they tell us their intentions it doesn't prove those were the actual intentions. They could be invented intentions. A lie.

That is why you look at the moral justification of actions.

Self defense and defense of anyone subject to illegitimate violence is morally justified. This is a capricious and subjective moral certitude and people are free to claim that people don't have the right to self defense. But I think it is something most people concede and it is contained in things like the US Declaration of Independence with the claim that people have the right to life. If a person has a right to life they have the right to defend that life. And of course the right to self defense is contained in US law and international law.

But if a claim of self defense is made the actions must be defensive and they must only use enough force to reasonably repel actual violence or the means of imminent violence.

A violent invasion to overturn a government or brutal dictator you don't like is not self defense. That justifies invasion of anyone.

Self defense is to repel actual violence coming your way or about to come your way.
 
There's absolutely no reason to believe that dismantling the settlements would bring peace and every reason to believe it wouldn't.


Of course if all the disputed territory were gobbled up by Israeli settlements peace would reign free over all of Greater Israel.


I mean, if there's no dirty Arabs to sully the Holy Land everything would be okay, right?

The Islamists will continue to fight so long as they get the money to do so.

Their #1 target is Israel but they're interested in everything.
 
Of course if all the disputed territory were gobbled up by Israeli settlements peace would reign free over all of Greater Israel.


I mean, if there's no dirty Arabs to sully the Holy Land everything would be okay, right?

The Islamists will continue to fight so long as they get the money to do so.

Their #1 target is Israel but they're interested in everything.

All evidence suggests that the #1 target is other islamists. Call me naive, but, to me, the middle-eastern conflicts look more complicated than just being about religion. Looks more like it's about money and power.
 
The Islamists will continue to fight so long as they get the money to do so.

Their #1 target is Israel but they're interested in everything.

All evidence suggests that the #1 target is other islamists. Call me naive, but, to me, the middle-eastern conflicts look more complicated than just being about religion. Looks more like it's about money and power.

They're prone to attacking other Muslims because they're much easier pickings--build up power. That's not the same as their objective.
 
No, the WTC was not a valid military target. Generic economic value isn't enough to make something a military target. The fact that an army marches on its stomach does not make farmers combatants.

The destruction of the WTC disrupted the entire economy. It caused the US Stock Market to lose value.
Exactly. A thoroughly civilian target.

And depriving an army of food is also a valid military objective.
Of course. And if you do it by blowing up the enemy army's supply convoy you're a commando and if you do it by rounding up the enemy country's farmers and machine-gunning them you're a terrorist. Methods matter.

That definition implies that a serial rapist who makes women afraid to go outside is a terrorist. Is that what you mean to claim?

That is one end of the spectrum. Terrorism on the very small scale.
So you're speaking your own private language.

Your opinion that it takes magic to induce intent does not make magic any part of others' claim.

Of course nobody is admitting this is their claim.

But divining intentions is akin to magic.
Whereas divining what those people really mean but aren't saying is something you can do without any magic at all, huh? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you're being? Figuring out other people's probable intentions from observation of their speech and behavior is something everybody who isn't autistic does constantly the whole time he's interacting with other people.

The others you're referring to propose to evaluate intent by means of evidence. Law courts do that every day when they decide whether a killer is guilty of murder or only of manslaughter.

The intentions decided in courts don't go far beyond premeditation.
Nonsense. Premeditation is how they distinguish between first degree and second degree murder. Intention is how they distinguish between second degree murder and manslaughter, and pretty much everything else for which "I didn't mean to" is a valid defense, such as deciding between a criminal assault prosecution and a civil personal injury lawsuit. You aren't going to beat an assault charge with "Sure, I beat him up on purpose, but I wasn't planning to in advance.".

Of course it was. The attackers obviously intended to murder noncombatants.
They were merely collateral damage.

The intention was to weaken an enemy that was intruding into the internal politics of foreign lands.

So the intention was self defense.
The intention was to weaken an enemy by killing civilians who weren't fighting them. That means those civilians weren't collateral damage; they were the intended targets. The fact that a distinction that others rely on is not important to you doesn't mean they're speaking their own language wrong. The term "collateral damage" isn't your personal property, Mr. Dumpty.

When we play with intentions they can be twisted and never really known for certain.
And that goes for everything else outside of the truths of mathematics. When we call bin Laden a terrorist there's always a chance we're wrong. There's a chance he sincerely thought the WTC was actually a giant ICBM silo and we were about to nuke Afghanistan, just as there's a chance he wasn't involved at all and the videos where he appeared to take credit were actually made by Santa Claus wearing a rubber bin Laden face mask. But he probably intended to kill noncombatants.

Some claim the US invasion and destruction of Iraq was not terrorism based on the claims of noble intentions on the part of the attacker.
Well then, tell those people they're wrong. Other people saying something unreasonable doesn't justify you saying something unreasonable.

The examination of intentions is just a can of worms with intransigent sides all claiming to know the true intentions.
So? You propose to replace intentions with moral justifications. The examination of moral justifications is also a can of worms with intransigent sides all claiming to know what's truly justified. We're opening a can of worms regardless; we might as well do it without also committing language abuse.

If I use weapons of sufficient killing power in sufficient amounts that I know for certain I will kill many innocent civilians, have I intended to kill some innocent civilians?
Welcome to the Trolley Problem. If you push a guy off a bridge so his body mass stops the trolley, then you intended him to get hit. If you throw a switch so the trolley veers away from the track with five guys on it onto the track with only one guy, you may know for certain that he'll get hit, but you didn't intend that result; you only caused it and expected it. You may well disagree with making a moral distinction between the two actions on that basis -- many ethical philosophers do -- but that's how English works and that's how typical human moral intuition works.
 
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not...s-are-muslims/

All Terrorists are Muslims…Except the 94% that Arent


According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. These were not terrorists who happened to be Jews; rather, they were extremist Jews who committed acts of terrorism based on their religious passions, just like Al-Qaeda and company.
END OF QUOTE

See the Pie Chart which shows Islamic extremists committed only 6% of the attacks. Jewish Extremists accounted for 7% of the attacks
 
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not...s-are-muslims/

All Terrorists are Muslims…Except the 94% that Arent


According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. These were not terrorists who happened to be Jews; rather, they were extremist Jews who committed acts of terrorism based on their religious passions, just like Al-Qaeda and company.
END OF QUOTE

See the Pie Chart which shows Islamic extremists committed only 6% of the attacks. Jewish Extremists accounted for 7% of the attacks

Cherry-picking alert!!


Most terrorism isn't in the US and of what terrorism there is in the US, most of it doesn't kill anyone.

Consider the deaths from terrorism in the US and you'll get different numbers.
 
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not...s-are-muslims/

All Terrorists are Muslims…Except the 94% that Arent


According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. These were not terrorists who happened to be Jews; rather, they were extremist Jews who committed acts of terrorism based on their religious passions, just like Al-Qaeda and company.
END OF QUOTE

See the Pie Chart which shows Islamic extremists committed only 6% of the attacks. Jewish Extremists accounted for 7% of the attacks

Cherry-picking alert!!


Most terrorism isn't in the US and of what terrorism there is in the US, most of it doesn't kill anyone.

Consider the deaths from terrorism in the US and you'll get different numbers.
Sure, but it's nevertheless interesting to see that the American muslims are apparently no more extremist than American Jews.

Personally, I think that's because USA is the seed for reformation in Islam. Give it a hundred years or so and they'll be house trained, just like Christians.
 
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