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Altruistic surrogacy=baby trafficking, according to 'cultural journalist'

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I knew the headline was clickbait, but I went ahead and read on anyway

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-an...urrogacy-baby-trafficking-20140812-3dkda.html

The interesting part are the last two paragraphs:

In my opinion, the distinction between altruistic and commercial surrogacy is a dishonest one. There is not actually any difference. What happens is the same in both: the woman is reduced to a container. Altruistic surrogacy functionalises motherhood, even when it doesn’t commercialise it. Instead of being an existential and spiritual experience for the woman, pregnancy is made into a function to serve others.

Functionalisation always precedes commercialization, as we have seen in prostitution. In order for something to be sold as separate from the seller, it must first be constituted as a separate function. What happens in the rhetoric of altruistic surrogacy is that it subversively accustoms people to seeing pregnancy as something a woman can lend to others—if she is not yet selling it.

I completely agree with the first sentence in the first paragraph. People become surrogates because they get something out of it. Extraordinarly though, Ekman reaches the exact opposite conclusion that one should take from such a premise.

Instead of admitting that it's okay to sell your body for nine months (just as I sell my mind and body to my employer for 11 months out of the year), Ekman breathtakingly thinks that both commercial and altruistic surrogacy need to be banned.

Of course pregnancy is something a woman can loan to others, and of course she should be able to sell it!

She's a speaker at Australia's 'Festival of Dangerous Ideas' which appears to me should be retitled 'Festival of Ludicrous and Immoral Ideas'. (The same festival had an Islamic speaker defending honour killings).
 
i quit reading at the part, "Instead of being an existential and spiritual experience for the woman...".
 
So did I. Who does this addled dipshit think she is to say that surrogacy is not also an existential and spiritual experience for a woman? And even if it isn't, fuck you, it's not your business.

Since when does petty, judgmental moralizing count as "dangerous ideas"?
 
Instead of being an existential and spiritual experience for the woman, pregnancy is made into a function to serve others.
So, it's not enough that a woman has a right to choose whether or not they allow a kidlet to develop in their womb, a pregnancy is only valid if the woman learns the Approved Lesson from the event?
And if you're giving up the baby at the end, you can't have that experience?
Does this apply equally to women who just choose not to abort, but plan to give the baby up for adoptoin after it's born?

This author is going to save women by defining their pregnancy for them. I'd almost rather have Phyllis Schlaffy define our marriage. Or Shahrazad Ali.
 
Gee. I thought this would be a good topic for discussing the use of one's normal, untrained biological functions - not that far away from "gee I have an extra kidney why not make a buck" - as an economic resource. But it seems we have judgments all around. Is fucking and baby making in the same category as tool making? Why isn't making babies for profit the same as giving lungs for profit? We mostly control the latter. Apparently gray market is more ethically friendly to babies for money.

Forced anything should be off the table if we are free.

Why are there just republican and democrat positions here?
 
As if there weren't enough bad reasons people come up with to have offspring, none of which involve the interest of the actual child (how could they?), doing it for somebody who can't do it themselves is added to the list.

There is nothing altruistic about making a baby. Even if it has the best possible life, it will certainly suffer and die, and both of those undesirable outcomes can be avoided by simply not having children. The child you don't have will never miss the happy experiences it could have enjoyed.

Creating a sentient being as a means to achieve an "existential and spiritual experience" during pregnancy is using the baby as merely a function to serve others (namely, the woman who desires this experience). If the author is opposed to treating women as vessels, she should consider that in reality, procreation treats potential children this way, since it is impossible to have a child for that child's sake. If it were possible, then one could easily identify a way that the child would be worse off never being born--but if there's no child, it couldn't be. Everybody who has kids does so because they think it will enrich THEIR OWN lives. How is that not using the child as a vessel? Being born is no trivial matter, and it's impossible to ask for consent before endowing a clump of cells with the ability to contemplate its mortality.

I'm not in favor of making procreation illegal, because that wouldn't work, and it would just cause more misery. But please, let's not provide yet another incentive, which has nothing to do with the welfare of the baby caught in the crossfire, to needlessly perpetuating another generation of avoidable suffering.
 
Gee. I thought this would be a good topic for discussing the use of one's normal, untrained biological functions - not that far away from "gee I have an extra kidney why not make a buck" - as an economic resource.
Or selling blood, selling hair to make wigs ,sure.
But it seems we have judgments all around.
I didn't think the thread's topic was the baby surrogacy industry, as much as the commentator making it either a mystical experience or an automatically evil commercial transation. My judgment's more on the writer being so judgmental.
Why isn't making babies for profit the same as giving lungs for profit?
I don't think you can legally sell one of your lungs. And there's no way any unscrupulous clinic can kill a woman and use her womb for baby-making, swearing it was donated voluntarily.
We mostly control the latter. Apparently gray market is more ethically friendly to babies for money.
Blood, hair, babies, bone marrow, those are renewable resources. Lungs don't grow back.
Forced anything should be off the table if we are free.
Well, yes, of course. But the article's author's stance is that even voluntarily donating 9 months of bodily function is just as bad as selling it and that's as bad as anything else.

So it seems to me, forcing people NOT to do it would also be an infringement of freedoms
 
Gee. I thought this would be a good topic for discussing the use of one's normal, untrained biological functions - not that far away from "gee I have an extra kidney why not make a buck" - as an economic resource. But it seems we have judgments all around. Is fucking and baby making in the same category as tool making? Why isn't making babies for profit the same as giving lungs for profit? We mostly control the latter. Apparently gray market is more ethically friendly to babies for money.

"Baby making" is not in the same category as "tool making" (What kind of tools??), but there are many jobs worse than "baby making" that pay a lot less, so it seems strange to object to baby making, but not make a peep about say, cleaning toilets (which I'm going to put out there, is more disgusting than being pregnant and worse on your back).

There are 1.5 million waste pickers in India alone. Some of these waste pickers could instead get more money than they'd able to earn in many years (decades?) of waste picking by being a commercial surrogate.

Forced anything should be off the table if we are free.

I concur.

Why are there just republican and democrat positions here?

If you have a non-Republican, non-Democrat position on the issue (Whatever that means) then by all means express it.
 
I knew the headline was clickbait, but I went ahead and read on anyway

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-an...urrogacy-baby-trafficking-20140812-3dkda.html

The interesting part are the last two paragraphs:

In my opinion, the distinction between altruistic and commercial surrogacy is a dishonest one. There is not actually any difference. What happens is the same in both: the woman is reduced to a container. Altruistic surrogacy functionalises motherhood, even when it doesn’t commercialise it. Instead of being an existential and spiritual experience for the woman, pregnancy is made into a function to serve others.

Functionalisation always precedes commercialization, as we have seen in prostitution. In order for something to be sold as separate from the seller, it must first be constituted as a separate function. What happens in the rhetoric of altruistic surrogacy is that it subversively accustoms people to seeing pregnancy as something a woman can lend to others—if she is not yet selling it.

I completely agree with the first sentence in the first paragraph. People become surrogates because they get something out of it. Extraordinarly though, Ekman reaches the exact opposite conclusion that one should take from such a premise.

Instead of admitting that it's okay to sell your body for nine months (just as I sell my mind and body to my employer for 11 months out of the year), Ekman breathtakingly thinks that both commercial and altruistic surrogacy need to be banned.

Of course pregnancy is something a woman can loan to others, and of course she should be able to sell it!

She's a speaker at Australia's 'Festival of Dangerous Ideas' which appears to me should be retitled 'Festival of Ludicrous and Immoral Ideas'. (The same festival had an Islamic speaker defending honour killings).

I don't agree with Ekman's reasoning but I do have a lot of qualms about commercial surrogacy because it can be and often is quite exploitive, there are few or no controls in place ensuring the couple who is seeking surrogacy are fit parents, how to handle medical and ethical issues which might arise should either surrogate mother or baby (or babies) have serious medical issues, etc. Here is one case that encompasses most of what can go wrong:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/australian-couple-accused-abandoning-downs-4034154

In this case the father is a convicted pedophile and the couple may or may not have wanted to force the surrogate to abort the child with Downs and may or may not have abandoned the child with Downs.

While I doubt that many prospective parents are convicted pedophiles or otherwise criminal or mentally unfit as parents, the vast inequality between those who resort to commercial surrogacy and those who are able to foot the bill for the procedure, necessary travel, medical care, compensation, legal work, etc. makes it easy to see how the surrogate can be unfairly and unjustly exploited and pressured into procedures she does not wish to have, etc. What happens if during the course of the pregnancy, the surrogate has justifiable qualms about the prospective parents? What if they prospective parents wish the surrogate to undergo an elective c-section, an abortion, or if the fetus has a medical issue which can be resolved by in utero surgery that puts the surrogate's health at risk? What if the surrogate develops a medical condition which makes it extremely risky to carry the pregnancy? What if she dies? What if the baby dies? Can the prospective parents mandate that the surrogate follow a certain diet? Abstain from sex? Abstain from all alcohol consumption? Alter her meds? What if the surrogate is left with medical issues post partum? What if her future fertility is lost or compromised? What if the prospective parents change their minds because the baby isn't the ' right' gender? Or has some minor--or not minor birth defect? What if the surrogate simply absconds with the baby in utero, and doesn't relinquish the baby, claiming the child as her own? What if it turns out the baby isn't the genetic offspring of the prospective parents?

It's a lot more complicated than simply saying that for 9 months, your job is to gestate someone else's embryo.
 
In this case the father is a convicted pedophile and the couple may or may not have wanted to force the surrogate to abort the child with Downs and may or may not have abandoned the child with Downs.

Since we don't stop convicted pedophiles from reproducing without a surrogate, I don't see what the issue is. If you think convicted pedophiles should be prevented by law from reproducing, then that would apply to surrogates too. But that's a law about a convicted pedophile's right to reproduce, not a law about surrogacy.

The other issue you raise is: what if the parents want to abort the child if it has a mental or physical defect? Well, what if parents want to do that right now? Presumably you don't have a problem with a couple deciding to abort if they find out their child will be severely or profoundly disabled? So what's the difference?

As for the actual terms of the surrogacy, that's between the people paying and the surrogate mother. If the people paying want a contract that says 'I want the right for the baby to be aborted within the limits of the law as I see fit, for any reason or no reason at all', then they can put that in the contract. If the surrogate mother objects to abortion, she shouldn't choose that contract. Of course, I'd expect financial terms be built in for 'time already served'. I get paid in arrears each fortnight and I don't see why surrogates shouldn't.

Of course, no contract can specify terms that are against the law (e.g. if abortion is banned in the country that the surrogate lives in, she can hardly be required to abort the baby).

While I doubt that many prospective parents are convicted pedophiles or otherwise criminal or mentally unfit as parents, the vast inequality between those who resort to commercial surrogacy and those who are able to foot the bill for the procedure, necessary travel, medical care, compensation, legal work, etc. makes it easy to see how the surrogate can be unfairly and unjustly exploited and pressured into procedures she does not wish to have, etc. What happens if during the course of the pregnancy, the surrogate has justifiable qualms about the prospective parents?

What if she does? If they really are unfit parents, one would hope the State would take the child away from them in any case.

But let's take the example from the story. What if the woman had found out, halfway through, that the father was a convicted pedophile, and had she known that, she would not have entered into the surrogacy? If she made good faith efforts to find out about criminal convictions, and those convictions were hidden from her or dishonest, she's got a good case for damages against the surrogates. But if she didn't try to find out, well, does she really have a case?

What if they prospective parents wish the surrogate to undergo an elective c-section, an abortion, or if the fetus has a medical issue which can be resolved by in utero surgery that puts the surrogate's health at risk?

If the contract specifies those, follow the contract. If the contract is silent on those issues, I would rely on case law to help shape what the 'reasonable expectations' are.

What if the surrogate develops a medical condition which makes it extremely risky to carry the pregnancy? What if she dies? What if the baby dies? Can the prospective parents mandate that the surrogate follow a certain diet? Abstain from sex? Abstain from all alcohol consumption? Alter her meds?

Yes, why not? If she doesn't want to do it, she does not have to accept the surrogacy does she?

What if the surrogate is left with medical issues post partum? What if her future fertility is lost or compromised? What if the prospective parents change their minds because the baby isn't the ' right' gender? Or has some minor--or not minor birth defect? What if the surrogate simply absconds with the baby in utero, and doesn't relinquish the baby, claiming the child as her own? What if it turns out the baby isn't the genetic offspring of the prospective parents?

A million contracts are made every day without either party foreseeing all possibilities. That doesn't mean we ban all voluntary agreements between people, whether for money or not.

It's a lot more complicated than simply saying that for 9 months, your job is to gestate someone else's embryo.

Well yes, but buying a house is a lot more complicated than paying a builder $X who will deliver a house in 9 months. That doesn't mean we should ban it.
 
Since we don't stop convicted pedophiles from reproducing without a surrogate, I don't see what the issue is. If you think convicted pedophiles should be prevented by law from reproducing, then that would apply to surrogates too. But that's a law about a convicted pedophile's right to reproduce, not a law about surrogacy.

We don't have laws about people who are convicted of serious crimes or with serious mental or physical disabilities which would prevent them from being able to adequately raise a child. We shouldn't, probably. That doesn't mean that it isn't a potentially serious issue.

The other issue you raise is: what if the parents want to abort the child if it has a mental or physical defect? Well, what if parents want to do that right now? Presumably you don't have a problem with a couple deciding to abort if they find out their child will be severely or profoundly disabled? So what's the difference?

In this case, and in potentially many other cases, attempting to force or pressure the surrogate into aborting. I believe that it is as wrong to force a person to abort as it is to force a person to carry a pregnancy she doesn't wish to carry.

Some situations are probably easier than others: suppose the fetus was discovered to carry a lethal defect, one which would not be compatible with life for more than a few hours outside of the womb. Probably most surrogates would be ok with terminating in those circumstances, but in this case, terminating for any reason violated the surrogate's deeply held beliefs. Most cases would not be as serious: what if the child had Downs or some other chromosomal anomaly? What if the child would have cystic fibrosis? Tay Sachs? Dwarfism? A heart defect? Ambiguous genitalia? What if the child would be deaf? Blind? Have serious medical issues? Some of these are much easier to deal with than others; some would require very major medical intervention and would involve a shortened life span, perhaps very much shorter. Who decides? What if surrogate and prospective parents disagree? Sure, there would be a contract but with any other job, you can quit.

As for the actual terms of the surrogacy, that's between the people paying and the surrogate mother. If the people paying want a contract that says 'I want the right for the baby to be aborted within the limits of the law as I see fit, for any reason or no reason at all', then they can put that in the contract. If the surrogate mother objects to abortion, she shouldn't choose that contract. Of course, I'd expect financial terms be built in for 'time already served'. I get paid in arrears each fortnight and I don't see why surrogates shouldn't.

Because people can and do change their minds. With respects to your job, if you have a disagreement with your employer, you can quit or you can be fired and while it would be unpleasant, I am sure, you would bear no physical risks. Your employer cannot insist you leave your kidney behind, even if your corporate paid insurance paid for the transplant giving you the kidney. It's much ambiguous when you are talking about the use of a person's body, and especially when that use will have long term physical, health and perhaps emotional consequences.

Of course, no contract can specify terms that are against the law (e.g. if abortion is banned in the country that the surrogate lives in, she can hardly be required to abort the baby).

Nor is it moral or ethical, imo, to force her to abort. Or to refuse her the option to abort. Ethically, that decision can only belong to the pregnant woman. Which means that the prospective couple is very vulnerable to manipulation, etc. as well. However, because of the great economic disparity, usually those paying call the shots. It's not a level playing field.

While I doubt that many prospective parents are convicted pedophiles or otherwise criminal or mentally unfit as parents, the vast inequality between those who resort to commercial surrogacy and those who are able to foot the bill for the procedure, necessary travel, medical care, compensation, legal work, etc. makes it easy to see how the surrogate can be unfairly and unjustly exploited and pressured into procedures she does not wish to have, etc. What happens if during the course of the pregnancy, the surrogate has justifiable qualms about the prospective parents?

What if she does? If they really are unfit parents, one would hope the State would take the child away from them in any case.

But let's take the example from the story. What if the woman had found out, halfway through, that the father was a convicted pedophile, and had she known that, she would not have entered into the surrogacy? If she made good faith efforts to find out about criminal convictions, and those convictions were hidden from her or dishonest, she's got a good case for damages against the surrogates. But if she didn't try to find out, well, does she really have a case?

How many resources do you suppose poor Thai or poor Indian or Malaysian women have at their disposal to spend 'researching' prospective clients? How many do you suppose even contemplate that such a person as a convicted pedophile would be allowed to use surrogacy? Keep in mind that these are young women.

What if they prospective parents wish the surrogate to undergo an elective c-section, an abortion, or if the fetus has a medical issue which can be resolved by in utero surgery that puts the surrogate's health at risk?

If the contract specifies those, follow the contract. If the contract is silent on those issues, I would rely on case law to help shape what the 'reasonable expectations' are.

There is scant case law for such cases. And as someone who has delivered more than one child, I can tell you as an absolute fact that what one thinks at early stages of a pregnancy can change dramatically by the end of the pregnancy, even and especially during labor and delivery.

What if the surrogate develops a medical condition which makes it extremely risky to carry the pregnancy? What if she dies? What if the baby dies? Can the prospective parents mandate that the surrogate follow a certain diet? Abstain from sex? Abstain from all alcohol consumption? Alter her meds?

Yes, why not? If she doesn't want to do it, she does not have to accept the surrogacy does she?

Note: the surrogate's medical status has changed as a result of the surrogacy in this scenario. She's already begun the pregnancy when she develops an unforeseen complication: perhaps suddenly she has very high blood pressure or develops gestational diabetes or is diagnosed with cancer.

Please note that often different people, especially from different cultures, have vastly differing ideas about what constitutes a healthy diet and even what constitutes being a vegetarian. Or submitting to all necessary and usual medical exams.

What if the surrogate is left with medical issues post partum? What if her future fertility is lost or compromised? What if the prospective parents change their minds because the baby isn't the ' right' gender? Or has some minor--or not minor birth defect? What if the surrogate simply absconds with the baby in utero, and doesn't relinquish the baby, claiming the child as her own? What if it turns out the baby isn't the genetic offspring of the prospective parents?

A million contracts are made every day without either party foreseeing all possibilities. That doesn't mean we ban all voluntary agreements between people, whether for money or not.

That is correct. However it is a wise person who understands the limitations of contract law. In the case of surrogacy, what might be specified in a contract might violate medical practice or ethics. An obstetrician is the doctor for the pregnant woman first and then the baby. Medical ethics mandate that they advocate for their patient, not the person paying the bills.

Well yes, but buying a house is a lot more complicated than paying a builder $X who will deliver a house in 9 months. That doesn't mean we should ban it.

Having a baby involves entirely different issues, risks,costs and benefits than does building a house. The two are not at all comparable.
 
By Toni : However it is a wise person who understands the limitations of contract law. In the case of surrogacy, what might be specified in a contract might violate medical practice or ethics. An obstetrician is the doctor for the pregnant woman first and then the baby. Medical ethics mandate that they advocate for their patient, not the person paying the bills.
Further potential violation in the contract would of course be the reality that as a patient, the surrogate pregnant woman is protected under the Patient's Bill of Rights. Meaning that she has the right to refuse any medical procedures/treatments etc... Abortions at any stage of the gestation imply a health care based or medical intervention. She cannot be compelled to undergo any such intervention as a patient. Her informed consent is necessary in compliance with the PBoRs.
 
We don't have laws about people who are convicted of serious crimes or with serious mental or physical disabilities which would prevent them from being able to adequately raise a child. We shouldn't, probably. That doesn't mean that it isn't a potentially serious issue.

Serious or not, it is an issue for general laws about pedophiles right to reproduce, not about surrogacy. If the concern isn't serious enough to prevent them for having kids on their own, then it isn't serious enough to be used as an excuse to restrict surrogacy.

I agree that all the other concerns you raise are potential pitfalls where the surrogate is likely to have less power and resources and be abused by the couple. But that is no different that many many employer-employee relations where employees have less power and can and do get hurt and even killed in the line of work, whether in construction, mining, police work, factory work, the military, or just working the till at the 7-11. All paid work is the use of one's mind and body in exchange for money, often with resulting "wear and tear". Surrogacy for money should be treated as an employment situation, meaning the couple must do all the things that an employer would generally have to do to have a full time employee with a high risk job. BTW, that includes everything from abiding by worker safety rules to having to pay for health insurance, workman's comp, payroll taxes, social security, etc..
 
We don't have laws about people who are convicted of serious crimes or with serious mental or physical disabilities which would prevent them from being able to adequately raise a child. We shouldn't, probably. That doesn't mean that it isn't a potentially serious issue.

Serious or not, it is an issue for general laws about pedophiles right to reproduce, not about surrogacy. If the concern isn't serious enough to prevent them for having kids on their own, then it isn't serious enough to be used as an excuse to restrict surrogacy.

I agree that all the other concerns you raise are potential pitfalls where the surrogate is likely to have less power and resources and be abused by the couple. But that is no different that many many employer-employee relations where employees have less power and can and do get hurt and even killed in the line of work, whether in construction, mining, police work, factory work, the military, or just working the till at the 7-11. All paid work is the use of one's mind and body in exchange for money, often with resulting "wear and tear". Surrogacy for money should be treated as an employment situation, meaning the couple must do all the things that an employer would generally have to do to have a full time employee with a high risk job. BTW, that includes everything from abiding by worker safety rules to having to pay for health insurance, workman's comp, payroll taxes, social security, etc..

Surrogacy isn't the same as any other employment. You can go home from your regular job; you cannot put away your pregnancy to get a good night's sleep. Trust me on that one. Pregnancy would be a cake walk if you could leave that baby for 8 hrs or so just to catch up on sleep. Or hand it to someone else to carry for an hour or so.

Aside from that: in many cases, prospective parents are not turning towards other citizens of the same country, but are turning specifically to women in countries with a high level of poverty ---and who do not have the same rights and protection in their home country. Even if they traveled back to say: Australia (mentioned because apparently legal restrictions on surrogacy in Australia mean a lot of prospective parents look towards Asia for surrogates) they would be, at best, guest workers and subject to additional pressures to comply with whatever the sponsoring prospective parents demanded.
 
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