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American civil war question

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According to the Union. The Confederacy disagreed, but they lost.
As for what happened after the end of the US Civil War: I wonder if you are aware of the Union troops in southern states? Or Reconstruction?

https://www.armyheritage.org/soldier-stories-information/the-occupation-of-the-south/


By the end of the war, the Union had about 600,000 soldiers and the south had about 200,000 soldiers who were in worse shape physically than the Union soldiers.

The South had far less resources than the North at the start of the war and most of the battles were fought in Southern and border states.

https://www.nps.gov/civilwar/facts.htm

Yes, I am aware of all of that.

History is written by those who win. The south still claims they were fighting for states’ rights. The part about it being states’ rights to hold black people as slaves is the silent part. Unless you actually read quotes from southern leaders.

I never took you for aConfederate sympathizer.
 
So, just pointing this out, when is racial slavery not a genocide? How is organized suffering, selective breeding, existences of forced rape and child theft, of having your culture literally whipped out of you not equally and differently awful as an organized systemic murder?

At Nuremberg crimes were defined as things the Germans did that the US and Britain didn't do.

So bombing civilian populations was not a war crime because the US and Britain did it.

Torture, even to death, was not a war crime.
A true observation, but it doesn't answer the question:

How is organized suffering, selective breeding, existences of forced rape and child theft, of having your culture literally whipped out of you not equally and differently awful as an organized systemic murder?

I know in general that you understand what I'm getting at.

It doesn't matter what Nuremberg defined things like, to that end. I can say Nuremberg didn't try all the criminals. I can say it seems to me some trials were skipped there, too
 
What are crimes are what human minds say are crimes.

It has nothing to do with the act.

It is about human choice and human free will.

I think it was Turing who was tortured for committing the crime of homosexuality.

Some minds probably still want it to be a crime.
 
I think sometimes that is what should have happened. Lincoln and Johnson should have just taken all the Confederate political leaders and hung them as well as all the southern aristocrats.
So, go all French Revolution on their asses? The Committee of Public Safety guillotined children for being aristocrats.

The guillotine would not have been unreasonable considering their treason and the fact they killed their own fellow citizens just so that they can enslave rape & murder, black folks.
 
I think sometimes that is what should have happened. Lincoln and Johnson should have just taken all the Confederate political leaders and hung them as well as all the southern aristocrats.
So, go all French Revolution on their asses? The Committee of Public Safety guillotined children for being aristocrats.

The guillotine would not have been unreasonable considering their treason and the fact they killed their own fellow citizens just so that they can enslave rape & murder, black folks.

The guillotine led to chaos then a despot who drove the nation bankrupt with aggressive war.

A gentle peace created a lasting peace.

So far.

The South is not united anymore.

You have some who fly the Confederate flag and many who see it as racist.
 
Most of the parliamentarians in the English Civil War lived out their lives; only those directly involved with beheading Charles I were executed.
 
The guillotine would not have been unreasonable considering their treason and the fact they killed their own fellow citizens just so that they can enslave rape & murder, black folks.

The guillotine led to chaos then a despot who drove the nation bankrupt with aggressive war.

A gentle peace created a lasting peace.

So far.

The South is not united anymore.

You have some who fly the Confederate flag and many who see it as racist.

Whatever, what I said stands "guillotine + confederate pricks =/= unreasonable".

Edit: Tiny elaboration, whatever unrest, and trouble putting them to the guillotine would have caused it would have been way less than what they've done already.
 
According to the Union. The Confederacy disagreed, but they lost.
As for what happened after the end of the US Civil War: I wonder if you are aware of the Union troops in southern states? Or Reconstruction?

https://www.armyheritage.org/soldier-stories-information/the-occupation-of-the-south/


By the end of the war, the Union had about 600,000 soldiers and the south had about 200,000 soldiers who were in worse shape physically than the Union soldiers.

The South had far less resources than the North at the start of the war and most of the battles were fought in Southern and border states.

https://www.nps.gov/civilwar/facts.htm

Yes, I am aware of all of that.

History is written by those who win. The south still claims they were fighting for states’ rights. The part about it being states’ rights to hold black people as slaves is the silent part. Unless you actually read quotes from southern leaders.
Yes, exactly.
I never took you for aConfederate sympathizer.

I'm not. But I do support truth over the propaganda of either side in discussing conflicts all of whose participants are now dead.

The Confederacy was a regional secessionist movement, rather than a nationwide revolt. That its aims were despicable doesn't change that fact.
 
History is written by those who win. The south still claims they were fighting for states’ rights. The part about it being states’ rights to hold black people as slaves is the silent part. Unless you actually read quotes from southern leaders.
Yes, exactly.
I never took you for aConfederate sympathizer.

I'm not. But I do support truth over the propaganda of either side in discussing conflicts all of whose participants are now dead.

The Confederacy was a regional secessionist movement, rather than a nationwide revolt. That its aims were despicable doesn't change that fact.
The definition of a civil war that I have seen is that it is a war between citizens of the ssme country. The War Between the States fits that definitik despite the CSA’s claim because the South lost, they were citizens of the USA as the North maintsined.
 
Yes, exactly.


I'm not. But I do support truth over the propaganda of either side in discussing conflicts all of whose participants are now dead.

The Confederacy was a regional secessionist movement, rather than a nationwide revolt. That its aims were despicable doesn't change that fact.
The definition of a civil war that I have seen is that it is a war between citizens of the ssme country. The War Between the States fits that definitik despite the CSA’s claim because the South lost, they were citizens of the USA as the North maintsined.

That's a definition of Civil War. But it's disingenuous to declare that the Confederates were citizens of the USA, when that is one of the facts in dispute, and over which the war was fought.

If the classification of the war is dependent on who wins, then IMO it's not a very useful classification from an historian's perspective; Though it's obviously a very useful one from the perspective of the victors.

A comparison with other wars suggests that there are, for purposes of historical understanding, three distinct classes of war: Those where both sides agree that the number of nations involved is one (Civil Wars); Those where one party believes that there is one nation involved, but the other does not (Wars of Secession); and Those where all parties agree that they belong to different nations (which are just 'Wars').

The Wars of the Three Kingdoms in the Seventeenth Century were, in the main, Civil Wars - each Kingdom was fighting within itself over the form of government, with significant forces of Royalists and Parliamentarians in each of the nations involved.

The French and Russian Civil Wars (the French one was so one sided as to be effectively indistinguishable from the revolution; The Russians had a the revolution first, then fought a Civil War over whether it would stick, albeit that Civil War was dominated by foreign forces on the side of the Whites) are more clear cut examples of genuine Civil Wars.

To categorise the Union/Confederacy conflict in the same way is IMO of little value. There are distinct and important differences between the ACW and these other conflicts. In particular, that a Civil War tends to be hugely fragmented, with front lines that separate numerous unconnected enclaves and exclaves, and that are often difficult or impossible to accurately portray on a map, as significant support for both sides can be found in a majority of the territory under dispute.

To discuss the definition, as though only one definition were possible or useful, is sophomoric. It's good for passing exams at school, but presumes a level of structure and clarity that is not a characteristic of reality. Challenging such concrete definitions on the basis of their utility (or lack of utility) in understanding the historical events and their contexts, is a useful exercise and can lead to better insights into the reality that hides behind the participants' claims (particularly those of the victors).

To say that the ACW was a Civil War between US citizens, occluding the fact that it was a war of secession fought by a specific set of states against another specific set of states, is as misleading as saying that the war was fought over states' rights without mention of slavery. Both give a distorted and incomplete picture. The Confederacy was, up to its defeat, a clearly distinct nation, with its own currency, government, and military, and with a defined geographical extent. That's not something that is typically characteristic of Civil Wars.
 
Yes, exactly.


I'm not. But I do support truth over the propaganda of either side in discussing conflicts all of whose participants are now dead.

The Confederacy was a regional secessionist movement, rather than a nationwide revolt. That its aims were despicable doesn't change that fact.
The definition of a civil war that I have seen is that it is a war between citizens of the ssme country. The War Between the States fits that definitik despite the CSA’s claim because the South lost, they were citizens of the USA as the North maintsined.

That's a definition of Civil War. But it's disingenuous to declare that the Confederates were citizens of the USA, when that is one of the facts in dispute, and over which the war was fought.
Yes and the fact in dispute was settled. Moreover, my understanding of the Civil War from my reading and studies of history is that most Southerners did think of themselves as citizens of the United States fighting for their rights. The fact that the War Between the States does not meet all of your typical characteristics of a "civil war" means little, because I strongly suspect that every conflict that meets your definition of a civil war does not meet every one of your typical characteristics.

Using "Civil War" in the context of the US War between the States obviously is useful for most people in the United States and clearly has value for them. The professional historians that I know have no problem with the US Civil War called the Civil War.
 
That's a definition of Civil War. But it's disingenuous to declare that the Confederates were citizens of the USA, when that is one of the facts in dispute, and over which the war was fought.
Yes and the fact in dispute was settled.
Sure. But that doesn't imply "and was therefore never in dispute".
Moreover, my understanding of the Civil War from my reading and studies of history is that most Southerners did think of themselves as citizens of the United States fighting for their rights. The fact that the War Between the States does not meet all of your typical characteristics of a "civil war" means little, because I strongly suspect that every conflict that meets your definition of a civil war does not meet every one of your typical characteristics.
Certainly history is too messy for perfect and strict definitions. But that's the entire point I am making here.
Using "Civil War" in the context of the US War between the States obviously is useful for most people in the United States
Sure. It's an essential part of holding the nation together. But that doesn't help to determine that it's 'truth' rather than 'propaganda', and I contend that it's more the latter than the former.
and clearly has value for them. The professional historians that I know have no problem with the US Civil War called the Civil War.
Nor do I. Proper nouns are useful. But being called John Smith doesn't imply that a person is a metalworker.
 
The definition of a civil war that I have seen is that it is a war between citizens of the ssme country. The War Between the States fits that definitik despite the CSA’s claim because the South lost, they were citizens of the USA as the North maintsined.

That describes the US Revolutionary War.

A war between two factions within the same country (colony)
 
Sure. But that doesn't imply "and was therefore never in dispute".
Is there a point? The fact John Smith does not believe he is a metal worker does not imply he is not a metal worker.

bilby said:
Certainly history is too messy for perfect and strict definitions. But that's the entire point I am making here.
Right, but if it is too messy, then why continue to claim it is unhelpful to call the US War Between the States a "Civil War"?
 
Sure. But that doesn't imply "and was therefore never in dispute".
Is there a point? The fact John Smith does not believe he is a metal worker does not imply he is not a metal worker.
er.. Yes, it does. Very strongly.
bilby said:
Certainly history is too messy for perfect and strict definitions. But that's the entire point I am making here.
Right, but if it is too messy, then why continue to claim it is unhelpful to call the US War Between the States a "Civil War"?

Because it's true.
 
The definition of a civil war that I have seen is that it is a war between citizens of the ssme country. The War Between the States fits that definitik despite the CSA’s claim because the South lost, they were citizens of the USA as the North maintsined.

That describes the US Revolutionary War.

A war between two factions within the same country (colony)

A colony is not the same thing as being part of the country.

Ask any Brit. Or Australian.

Colonies are subject to foreign rule.

In the United States, States are part of a larger nation and have a voice in the national government and have rights and responsibilities established under the constitution.

I realize that the word 'state' means different things in different parts of the world but when talking about the United States, a state is a constituent political entity. These are bound together in a political union, each state holds governmental jurisdiction over a separate and defined geographic territory where it shares its sovereignty with the federal government. In the US, those rights and responsibilities not belonging to the federal government belong to the state.
 
er.. Yes, it does. Very strongly.
bilby said:
Certainly history is too messy for perfect and strict definitions. But that's the entire point I am making here.
Right, but if it is too messy, then why continue to claim it is unhelpful to call the US War Between the States a "Civil War"?

Because it's true.

It is perhaps not helpful to advance your personal view of the United States, but that does not actually matter to the United States or its history.
 
The definition of a civil war that I have seen is that it is a war between citizens of the ssme country. The War Between the States fits that definitik despite the CSA’s claim because the South lost, they were citizens of the USA as the North maintsined.

That describes the US Revolutionary War.

A war between two factions within the same country (colony)

A colony is not the same thing as being part of the country.

Ask any Brit. Or Australian.

Colonies are subject to foreign rule.

In the United States, States are part of a larger nation and have a voice in the national government and have rights and responsibilities established under the constitution.

I realize that the word 'state' means different things in different parts of the world but when talking about the United States, a state is a constituent political entity. These are bound together in a political union, each state holds governmental jurisdiction over a separate and defined geographic territory where it shares its sovereignty with the federal government. In the US, those rights and responsibilities not belonging to the federal government belong to the state.

The ruling entity of a colony is not considered foreign.

Just like Puerto Rico is not considered a foreign country.

George Washington was considered a foreign power.
 
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