An example of my transgender confusion.

[ruby sparks]

Ok so I've just read the following BBC article:

Quinn: Canada's transgender footballer on being 'visible' and playing at the Olympics
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54233946

I am a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't clearly understand what this person's gender identity is. If it says it clearly somewhere, I've missed it. I watched the video of her (whoops, see what I mean? I had to go back in and edit that) them talking and I don't think it was said in that, or should I say I don't think they said it. So I'm thinking, 'visible as being what'? Transgender, obviously, but...hey maybe I'm just slow.

I would have guessed trans woman, but the article says: "Quinn was assigned female at birth but after many years of questioning themselves, realised their own gender identity did not match their sex."

Also, I had not previously heard of trans persons dropping their 'dead' first name (wiki says this person's given-at-birth name was Rebecca). First names are useful. In Ireland, Quinn is a very common surname. If you were only known as Quinn....

So...they (this person's preferred pronoun) must be a trans man, but playing women's football? Which is fine, obviously (unless I'm confused) and a slightly different issue to a trans woman playing in a women's league.

But later in the article, it says (possibly not about Quinn?) "However, critics say it is unfair to have a trans woman competing in female sport with a biologically male body."

Anyhows, another thing I noticed was this: "Those in Quinn's personal circle have known their identity for some time". After a moment or two of reflection, I realised that the 'their' in that was Quinn, not her friends (my initial thought was, maybe Quinn only recently knew theirs, by which I mean Quinn's, but that seemed an odd reading so I read it again). If there's one thing I like about language, it's clarity being conveyed to the reader, and that's......not?

I am not sure I will ever completely get the hang of this at my age. Sometimes I even do wonder whether I am actually obliged to. Controversial, I know. But I'm going to be honest here and just say it.

And yes, I am aware of the risk that this thread will descend into the usual woke ping-pong. But hopefully it won't.

 

[Trausti]

It’s narcissism, that’s why it’s difficult to understand.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

I am a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't clearly understand what this person's gender identity is.
[...]
I would have guessed trans woman, but the article says: "Quinn was assigned female at birth but after many years of questioning themselves, realised their own gender identity did not match their sex."

I also don't see it mentioned here or elsewhere. Could be a number of things, but not transgender woman by conventional terminology.

Also, I had not previously heard of trans persons dropping their 'dead' first name (wiki says this person's given-at-birth name was Rebecca). First names are useful. In Ireland, Quinn is a very common surname. If you were only known as Quinn....

Nothing would happen. For all the people with the surname Quinn, how many have a nullified first name? There are probably fewer people named just 'Quinn' than people named 'Jack Quinn', let's say. There are certainly more people with the first name Quinn than people with only the surname Quinn. There are all sorts of ways ambiguity arises with people having the same names, and yet we manage around the issue with a little clarification or context.

So...they (this person's preferred pronoun) must be a trans man, but playing women's football? Which is fine, obviously (unless I'm confused) and a slightly different issue to a trans woman playing in a women's league.

Or they could be non-binary, or they could still be navigating their identity somewhat. Even in cases of people knowing exactly who they are, knowing how to fit that into the world can be very difficult.

But later in the article, it says (possibly not about Quinn?) "However, critics say it is unfair to have a trans woman competing in female sport with a biologically male body."

That was referring to the discussion on Olympic policies regarding transgender participants, not to Quinn's specific situation.

Anyhows, another thing I noticed was this: "Those in Quinn's personal circle have known their identity for some time". After a moment or two of reflection, I realised that the 'their' in that was Quinn, not her friends (my initial thought was, maybe Quinn only recently knew theirs, by which I mean Quinn's, but that seemed an odd reading so I read it again). If there's one thing I like about language, it's clarity being conveyed to the reader, and that's......not?

English is frequently not actually clear. We often just parse things out of familiarity, so even ambiguous sentences are navigated by what the author most likely meant. I had absolutely no difficulty understanding what the sentence meant because context made it clear, and because I've passed that fairly minimal adjustment period of being familiarized with 'they' in this usage years ago.

Consider the following example: "Michael had been close to John for years. He would often hold his hand." Who held whose hand? It's quite ambiguous, but do you find it that hard to resolve?Those in Quinn's personal circle have known their identity for some time, and the reaction from Canada team-mates, who they told in an email, was "overwhelmingly positive".

Or consider the pronoun 'you' which is used as the second person singular definite pronoun, second person plural definite, and in place of the third person indefinite pronoun 'one'. It does cause confusion, but we tend not to classify this grammatical oddity as political.

The full sentence was 'Those in Quinn's personal circle have known their identity for some time, and the reaction from Canada team-mates, who they told in an email, was "overwhelmingly positive"'. It's not particularly unclear.

I am not sure I will ever completely get the hang of this at my age. Sometimes I even do wonder whether I am actually obliged to. Controversial, I know. But I'm going to be honest here and just say it.

I've known some pretty elderly people who have managed. Maybe age isn't the key variable in question even if it has some impact on learning capacity and habituation. As to whether you are obliged to or not, how much is anyone obliged to do much of anything? Provided you aren't in any contexts where anti-discrimination statutes may apply on thebasis of gender identity, your obligation is minimal. But then no one is obligated to reverse the trend of 'they' taking over as the third-person gender-neutral pronoun, not even in news publications which you may find a little confusion or jarring to read. Perhaps, if people hadn't lost their shit over pronouns like 'xir' a different convention would have been adopted. Linguistically, that may have been preferable. That's not how it played out, so regardless of obligation, you may just be shit out of luck on this one.

 

[ruby sparks]

It’s narcissism, that’s why it’s difficult to understand.

I think that’s ungenerous. I imagine it can’t make for an easy life, having and having had a gender identity that does not match your biological sex, and in that way being different from the great majority of people and being vulnerable to their view and understanding of you. So I’d have a bit more sympathy than that. In fact I doubt there’s any more self interest involved than there is for the average human.

 

[ruby sparks]

I also don't see it mentioned here or elsewhere. Could be a number of things, but not transgender woman by conventional terminology.



Nothing would happen. For all the people with the surname Quinn, how many have a nullified first name? There are probably fewer people named just 'Quinn' than people named 'Jack Quinn', let's say. There are certainly more people with the first name Quinn than people with only the surname Quinn. There are all sorts of ways ambiguity arises with people having the same names, and yet we manage around the issue with a little clarification or context.

So...they (this person's preferred pronoun) must be a trans man, but playing women's football? Which is fine, obviously (unless I'm confused) and a slightly different issue to a trans woman playing in a women's league.

Or they could be non-binary, or they could still be navigating their identity somewhat. Even in cases of people knowing exactly who they are, knowing how to fit that into the world can be very difficult.

But later in the article, it says (possibly not about Quinn?) "However, critics say it is unfair to have a trans woman competing in female sport with a biologically male body."

That was referring to the discussion on Olympic policies regarding transgender participants, not to Quinn's specific situation.

Anyhows, another thing I noticed was this: "Those in Quinn's personal circle have known their identity for some time". After a moment or two of reflection, I realised that the 'their' in that was Quinn, not her friends (my initial thought was, maybe Quinn only recently knew theirs, by which I mean Quinn's, but that seemed an odd reading so I read it again). If there's one thing I like about language, it's clarity being conveyed to the reader, and that's......not?

English is frequently not actually clear. We often just parse things out of familiarity, so even ambiguous sentences are navigated by what the author most likely meant. I had absolutely no difficulty understanding what the sentence meant because context made it clear, and because I've passed that fairly minimal adjustment period of being familiarized with 'they' in this usage years ago.

Consider the following example: "Michael had been close to John for years. He would often hold his hand." Who held whose hand? It's quite ambiguous, but do you find it that hard to resolve?Those in Quinn's personal circle have known their identity for some time, and the reaction from Canada team-mates, who they told in an email, was "overwhelmingly positive".

Or consider the pronoun 'you' which is used as the second person singular definite pronoun, second person plural definite, and in place of the third person indefinite pronoun 'one'. It does cause confusion, but we tend not to classify this grammatical oddity as political.

The full sentence was 'Those in Quinn's personal circle have known their identity for some time, and the reaction from Canada team-mates, who they told in an email, was "overwhelmingly positive"'. It's not particularly unclear.

I am not sure I will ever completely get the hang of this at my age. Sometimes I even do wonder whether I am actually obliged to. Controversial, I know. But I'm going to be honest here and just say it.

I've known some pretty elderly people who have managed. Maybe age isn't the key variable in question even if it has some impact on learning capacity and habituation. As to whether you are obliged to or not, how much is anyone obliged to do much of anything? Provided you aren't in any contexts where anti-discrimination statutes may apply on thebasis of gender identity, your obligation is minimal. But then no one is obligated to reverse the trend of 'they' taking over as the third-person gender-neutral pronoun, not even in news publications which you may find a little confusion or jarring to read. Perhaps, if people hadn't lost their shit over pronouns like 'xir' a different convention would have been adopted. Linguistically, that may have been preferable. That's not how it played out, so regardless of obligation, you may just be shit out of luck on this one.

Plenty of good points there. Thanks.

I’m sure I either will or could get the hang of it though habituation and familiarity.

Though when you say it could be one of a number of gender identities, or a non-conventional one, or not (yet) a settled issue for them, I think I might have some trouble for a little while yet.

It’s not that ‘my trouble’ is the key thing here, obviously. It’s not the key thing.

 

[Metaphor]

I think that’s very ungenerous. I imagine it can’t make for an easy life, having and having had a gender identity that does not match your biological sex, and in that way being different from the great majority of people and being vulnerable to their view and understanding of you. So I’d have a bit more sympathy than that. In fact I doubt there’s any more self interest involved than there is for the average human.

Being 'different' from the great majority of people is often a highly desired status for some people.

Take the fresh crop of 'non-binary' individuals. What does it mean to announce you are non-binary? What burden is lifted from a non-binary person when they announce their gender identity?

Take Councillor Ben Moroney from Campbelltown in NSW (a Greens councillor, because of course). He recently announced he was non-binary. Well, okay. I'm transphobic, so to me he just seems like a masculine-appearing heterosexual man in a conventional heterosexual relationship and his sperm fathered the child he shares with his wife. He does not have gender dysphoria of any kind. He appears to think some aspects of his personality are not 'masculine', and so, he feels 'non-binary'.

“From mid last year I was thinking about myself and how I feel about different aspects of my personality and how people see me and treat me."

“I am not uncomfortable with my body, but inside I do not feel I identify with the same experiences as someone who is a traditional man in our society; I don’t feel I have the same reactions.’’

This is absurd. He says his declaration of himself as non-binary doesn't change anything and he is right: his declaration is meaningless self-puffery. He appears to base his non-binary gender identity on stereotypes of manhood that he does not conform to.

Well, I'm sorry he chose to 'avoid' his nonconformity with manhood by pretending he isn't a man. I'm sorry that by his actions, he perpetuates and upholds the destructive notion that masculine traits are suitable only for men, instead of dismantling the notion.

And I'm sorry for the damage that 'non-binary' self-declarers do to trans people with gender dysphoria.

The minutes of last week’s Campbelltown City Council meeting include the following extraordinary words:

“Councillor Ben Moroney revealed to the chamber that they are non-binary, not identifying as male or female. Councillor Moroney thanked everyone for being extremely supportive and respectful.’’
If anyone present was shocked last Tuesday night by this statement they did not show it.
Cr Moroney, who is married to a woman and they have an 18 month old son, is believed to be only one of two serving councillors identifying as non binary.
On Thursday, two days after his announcement, the South West Voice sat down with the young Greens councillor to ask him about his decision, and if there were any consequences for him publicly or privately.
He said his new, non binary identity will not affect his relationship with his wife.
“No, nothing changes there,’’ he said.

“My wife is incredibly supportive; we have all the same friends, so she knows as much about the situation as I do.
“We’re still in love,’’ said Cr Moroney, pictured below.

“This doesn’t change how I feel about other people – it’s about how I feel inside.’’

“I haven’t done it for a reason like, oh, this will be convenient,’’ he said.
“From mid last year I was thinking about myself and how I feel about different aspects of my personality and how people see me and treat me.

“I’ve been talking to people I know in the Greens, and other circles, and some of the experiences I heard about sat with me.
“So I considered the option, something I had never done before and late last year I came to the realisation that this – being non binary – was me.
“It’s not a rejection of genders; non binary is a term that covers a whole bunch of stuff, and in my case I use it because I don’t have a word for my situation.
“There are people who are very specific about how they feel, but for me it’s not something I can pin down, so non binary is a generic term that covers how I identify.

“I am not uncomfortable with my body, but inside I do not feel I identify with the same experiences as someone who is a traditional man in our society; I don’t feel I have the same reactions.’’

Cr Moroney says he made a public announcement about his personal decision in support of other local people who may identify as non binary.
“The only reason I brought it into the chamber was because it’s a personal thing for everyone, but ends up being political,’’ he told the Voice.

“I feel like it’s a situation where it’s very much a privilege, I can do this, whereas other people can’t.

“And what limited platform I have I feel I am obligated to make it public for the sake of people who can’t.
“I did it for other people – if there is someone in Campbelltown who sees what’s going on in the chamber of council who feels society isn’t set up to accept them, I want them to be able to feel, no, there is space for you.
“To see there is someone who feels the same way as you, or similar and be on council and do this sort of stuff.

“And you’re normal.’’

 

[Trausti]

It’s narcissism, that’s why it’s difficult to understand.

I think that’s ungenerous. I imagine it can’t make for an easy life, having and having had a gender identity that does not match your biological sex, and in that way being different from the great majority of people and being vulnerable to their view and understanding of you. So I’d have a bit more sympathy than that. In fact I doubt there’s any more self interest involved than there is for the average human.

Everyone has to focus attention on them and their issues. We have to change our language. We have to deny biology. Problems that used to be addressed with a therapist are now political.

 

[ruby sparks]

Being 'different' from the great majority of people is often a highly desired status for some people.

Take the fresh crop of 'non-binary' individuals. What does it mean to announce you are non-binary? What burden is lifted from a non-binary person when they announce their gender identity?

Take Councillor Ben Moroney from Campbelltown in NSW (a Greens councillor, because of course). He recently announced he was non-binary. Well, okay. I'm transphobic, so to me he just seems like a masculine-appearing heterosexual man in a conventional heterosexual relationship and his sperm fathered the child he shares with his wife. He does not have gender dysphoria of any kind. He appears to think some aspects of his personality are not 'masculine', and so, he feels 'non-binary'.

“I am not uncomfortable with my body, but inside I do not feel I identify with the same experiences as someone who is a traditional man in our society; I don’t feel I have the same reactions.’’

This is absurd. He says his declaration of himself as non-binary doesn't change anything and he is right: his declaration is meaningless self-puffery. He appears to base his non-binary gender identity on stereotypes of manhood that he does not conform to.

Well, I'm sorry he chose to 'avoid' his nonconformity with manhood by pretending he isn't a man. I'm sorry that by his actions, he perpetuates and upholds the destructive notion that masculine traits are suitable only for men, instead of dismantling the notion.

And I'm sorry for the damage that 'non-binary' self-declarers do to trans people with gender dysphoria.

The minutes of last week’s Campbelltown City Council meeting include the following extraordinary words:

“Councillor Ben Moroney revealed to the chamber that they are non-binary, not identifying as male or female. Councillor Moroney thanked everyone for being extremely supportive and respectful.’’
If anyone present was shocked last Tuesday night by this statement they did not show it.
Cr Moroney, who is married to a woman and they have an 18 month old son, is believed to be only one of two serving councillors identifying as non binary.
On Thursday, two days after his announcement, the South West Voice sat down with the young Greens councillor to ask him about his decision, and if there were any consequences for him publicly or privately.
He said his new, non binary identity will not affect his relationship with his wife.
“No, nothing changes there,’’ he said.

“My wife is incredibly supportive; we have all the same friends, so she knows as much about the situation as I do.
“We’re still in love,’’ said Cr Moroney, pictured below.

“This doesn’t change how I feel about other people – it’s about how I feel inside.’’

“I haven’t done it for a reason like, oh, this will be convenient,’’ he said.
“From mid last year I was thinking about myself and how I feel about different aspects of my personality and how people see me and treat me.

“I’ve been talking to people I know in the Greens, and other circles, and some of the experiences I heard about sat with me.
“So I considered the option, something I had never done before and late last year I came to the realisation that this – being non binary – was me.
“It’s not a rejection of genders; non binary is a term that covers a whole bunch of stuff, and in my case I use it because I don’t have a word for my situation.
“There are people who are very specific about how they feel, but for me it’s not something I can pin down, so non binary is a generic term that covers how I identify.

“I am not uncomfortable with my body, but inside I do not feel I identify with the same experiences as someone who is a traditional man in our society; I don’t feel I have the same reactions.’’

Cr Moroney says he made a public announcement about his personal decision in support of other local people who may identify as non binary.
“The only reason I brought it into the chamber was because it’s a personal thing for everyone, but ends up being political,’’ he told the Voice.

“I feel like it’s a situation where it’s very much a privilege, I can do this, whereas other people can’t.

“And what limited platform I have I feel I am obligated to make it public for the sake of people who can’t.
“I did it for other people – if there is someone in Campbelltown who sees what’s going on in the chamber of council who feels society isn’t set up to accept them, I want them to be able to feel, no, there is space for you.
“To see there is someone who feels the same way as you, or similar and be on council and do this sort of stuff.

“And you’re normal.’’

Well I don't know that particular case, but there are many who do genuinely have gender dysphoria and that's who I was referring to.

 

[ruby sparks]

Problems that used to be addressed with a therapist are now political.

A bit like homosexuality in a way.

 

[ruby sparks]

We have to change our language.

I think I do agree with you on that up to a point.

We have to deny biology.

Not sure about this one. It's more a case of accepting a psychological reality, imo. In other words, trans gender is real.

 

[Metaphor]

Problems that used to be addressed with a therapist are now political.

A bit like homosexuality in a way.

Did homosexual men demand to be called 'straight'?

 

[ruby sparks]

Problems that used to be addressed with a therapist are now political.

A bit like homosexuality in a way.

Did homosexual men demand to be called 'straight'?

The similarity I was referring to was about them having their problems addressed by going to therapy.

But, on your question, both homosexuals and transgender persons probably want to be recognised and accepted as what they really actually are in their head, so that's another point of comparison. Thank you.

I'm not saying they're the same thing.

 

[Politesse]

Problems that used to be addressed with a therapist are now political.

A bit like homosexuality in a way.

Did homosexual men demand to be called 'straight'?

No, but we had to fight for twenty years against seemingly impossible odds to be called "sane", so most of us try to be generous toward others who are being similarly miscategorized by the state.

I have little pity for thos who find it "hard" to understand the concept of calling others how they prefer to be called, a lesson I learned when I was a toddler. If you're so old, maybe try growing up a bit?

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Everyone has to focus attention on them and their issues.

No demographic covered under 'LGBTQ+' gets as much attention as cisgender and heterosexual people. It's just so ubiquitous and normalized you've all taken it for granted. It's like you've walked into a restaurant, noticed they have an aquarium, and then started crying about drowning because less than 1% of the restaurant was made habitable for fish, all the while forgetting that the remaining 99%+ of the space is actually breathable air and space for humans to use and enjoy.

We have to change our language.

Everyone has to change their language throughout life. LGBTQ issues have had only a fraction of the impact on language as evolutions in consumer electronics and communications products. No one is asking you to start speaking Portuguese. My god what a little whiner you are.

We have to deny biology.

You have to learn biology, including the ambiguities and variances. Actually, not even that. You just have to let go of treating your eight grade health class (or whatever basic education you had)
like it was the gospel.

Problems that used to be addressed with a therapist are now political.

We didn't make it political. Having to fight to live our lives differently from you made it political. If y'all would stop shoving your cis-het dicks into everything, it wouldn't have been an issue, you needy, whiny fucks.

 

[Jarhyn]

No demographic covered under 'LGBTQ+' gets as much attention as cisgender and heterosexual people. It's just so ubiquitous and normalized you've all taken it for granted. It's like you've walked into a restaurant, noticed they have an aquarium, and then started crying about drowning because less than 1% of the restaurant was made habitable for fish, all the while forgetting that the remaining 99%+ of the space is actually breathable air and space for humans to use and enjoy.



Everyone has to change their language throughout life. LGBTQ issues have had only a fraction of the impact on language as evolutions in consumer electronics and communications products. No one is asking you to start speaking Portuguese. My god what a little whiner you are.

We have to deny biology.

You have to learn biology, including the ambiguities and variances. Actually, not even that. You just have to let go of treating your eight grade health class (or whatever basic education you had)
like it was the gospel.

Problems that used to be addressed with a therapist are now political.

We didn't make it political. Having to fight to live our lives differently from you made it political. If y'all would stop shoving your cis-het dicks into everything, it wouldn't have been an issue, you needy, whiny fucks.

Amazing that the people who constantly crow about biology with regards to trans people are consistently the ones who also entirely ignore all the actual discussions about biology, particularly about neurobiology and genital-brain discordance.

They entirely ignore the neurological elements, instead harping on about junk science that was invalidated nearly half a century ago ("it's a psychological problem!").

I've tried to dumb it down to the point where someone of at least average education and minimal intelligence could probably grasp it, but for whatever reason, some people just don't seem to ever grasp it.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Problems that used to be addressed with a therapist are now political.

A bit like homosexuality in a way.

Did homosexual men demand to be called 'straight'?

That isn't analogous to anything. Transgender people aren't claiming to be cis.

 

[Elixir]

Did homosexual men demand to be called 'straight'?

If they're republicans they just pretend to be straight. Usually married and coaching some sport or preaching...

 

[Metaphor]

No, but we had to fight for twenty years against seemingly impossible odds to be called "sane", so most of us try to be generous toward others who are being similarly miscategorized by the state.

You are suggesting that the State 'mischaracterises' transgender people? The State does not. The State records your sex at birth, as it does for all people.

I have little pity for thos who find it "hard" to understand the concept of calling others how they prefer to be called, a lesson I learned when I was a toddler. If you're so old, maybe try growing up a bit?

Transgender activists demand more than 'calling others how they prefer'. JK Rowling didn't 'misgender' a single person in the world, but she was cancelled. They demand compliance with their belief systems, under threat of social censure, economic ruination, and State force.

 

[Metaphor]

Did homosexual men demand to be called 'straight'?

That isn't analogous to anything. Transgender people aren't claiming to be cis.

Transgender people are demanding to be called, and treated like, a sex they are not.

Some transgender activists are also demanding 'cis' people put pronouns in their introductions and correspondence, so as to normalise the introduction of pronouns. I can see the writing on the wall at my own workplace, though I suspect it will be a 'recommendation' - at first.

There's also a parallel trend asking people to use unsexed terms for their partner/spouse, though I can't quite tell if this is a transactivist-originated demand.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Transgender people are demanding to be called, and treated like, a sex they are not.

No, we expect to be treated based on our gender identity to the extent possible. For instance, My bank insisted on putting my title on cheques, so that title should say 'Miss' or 'Ms.' if I don't have the option of removing it altogether, not 'Mr.' and not 'Mx.'. But I don't go into the doctor demanding a hysterectomy.

Some transgender activists are also demanding 'cis' people put pronouns in their introductions and correspondence, so as to normalise the introduction of pronouns. I can see the writing on the wall at my own workplace, though I suspect it will be a 'recommendation' - at first.

I've never encountered it as a demand, but even if it were, so what? My workplace had a number of requirements with regard to communications including formatting and content for signatures.

There's also a parallel trend asking people to use unsexed terms for their partner/spouse, though I can't quite tell if this is a transactivist-originated demand.

I don't actually know what you are talking about. Some people prefer to use gender-neutral terminology (not 'unsexed'). And there are some cases where forms/ documents/ customer interactions use gender-neutral terminology. That sort of thing rose to prominence with 'LGB' issues quicker than 'T' issues. I've never encountered a scenario where an individual was expected to not refer to their spouse as their husband or their wife if either of those terms fit.