And it's gone ...

[Loren Pechtel]

Look at what's happened now--Hamas is the one that ended the cease fire because they haven't gotten concessions. They're getting their asses whipped and yet they're demanding concessions to stop shooting.

What's happening now is that Israel is saying it will keep it's boot on the throat of Gaza, but it does not in any way want to pay for this crime.

The only crime I see is committed by Hamas.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously both sides reckon that continuing the conflict benefits them. Hamas wants easing the blockade, and has not received harsh enough ass-whipping yet to give that up. Israel thinks it benefits more from beating Hamas into submission than negotiating a deal that would give Hamas long term advantage, plus Iron Dome is working out well enough for them.

My bet is that Hamas will run out of rockets first.

For Hamas it is either the slow steady continuing crushing of life in Gaza or resisting and being bombed.

It has no good choice.

Yet of course even though it has no good choice it is at fault.

A slow steady crushing of life in Gaza by Hamas. Israel isn't crushing it. There were no restrictions after the 2005 pullout.

 

[untermensche]

What's happening now is that Israel is saying it will keep it's boot on the throat of Gaza, but it does not in any way want to pay for this crime.

The only crime I see is committed by Hamas.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously both sides reckon that continuing the conflict benefits them. Hamas wants easing the blockade, and has not received harsh enough ass-whipping yet to give that up. Israel thinks it benefits more from beating Hamas into submission than negotiating a deal that would give Hamas long term advantage, plus Iron Dome is working out well enough for them.

My bet is that Hamas will run out of rockets first.

For Hamas it is either the slow steady continuing crushing of life in Gaza or resisting and being bombed.

It has no good choice.

Yet of course even though it has no good choice it is at fault.

A slow steady crushing of life in Gaza by Hamas. Israel isn't crushing it. There were no restrictions after the 2005 pullout.

No restrictions?

That's just a lie.

There are massive restrictions on Gaza. It's entire economic activity is controlled by Israel. Nothing comes in or gets out unless Israel says it's OK. Even medical supplies and food.

You see no crimes? That is a joke.

The blockade is a crime, the quarantine is a crime, the control over economic activity is a crime. The constant attacks and kidnappings and torture are all crimes. The destruction of private homes is a crime. Every settlement is a crime.

The difference between the two groups is that Israeli crimes are constant and deep and effect everyone and the crimes of Hamas are sporadic and usually a direct result of Israeli attacks and brutality and they effect a tiny number of Israelis.

You have these massive crimes against humanity on one side and these tiny crimes against a few individuals on the other.

 

[Jayjay]

The only crime I see is committed by Hamas.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously both sides reckon that continuing the conflict benefits them. Hamas wants easing the blockade, and has not received harsh enough ass-whipping yet to give that up. Israel thinks it benefits more from beating Hamas into submission than negotiating a deal that would give Hamas long term advantage, plus Iron Dome is working out well enough for them.

My bet is that Hamas will run out of rockets first.

For Hamas it is either the slow steady continuing crushing of life in Gaza or resisting and being bombed.

It has no good choice.

Yet of course even though it has no good choice it is at fault.

A slow steady crushing of life in Gaza by Hamas. Israel isn't crushing it. There were no restrictions after the 2005 pullout.

No restrictions?

That's just a lie.

There are massive restrictions on Gaza. It's entire economic activity is controlled by Israel. Nothing comes in or gets out unless Israel says it's OK. Even medical supplies and food.

You see no crimes? That is a joke.

The blockade is a crime, the quarantine is a crime, the control over economic activity is a crime. The constant attacks and kidnappings and torture are all crimes. The destruction of private homes is a crime. Every settlement is a crime.

The difference between the two groups is that Israeli crimes are constant and deep and effect everyone and the crimes of Hamas are sporadic and usually a direct result of Israeli attacks and brutality and they effect a tiny number of Israelis.

You have these massive crimes against humanity on one side and these tiny crimes against a few individuals on the other.

I think he meant immediately after the 2005 pullout. Sure there were some restrictions, but considerably less than after the fighting broke out.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How about the casualty figures in Gaza.

Even the BBC now admits there seems to be an elephant in the room:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

although they are still downplaying the size of it.

Even at a 10 to 1 exaggeration, there is a 100 to 1 civilian to civilian casualty disparity.

You're missing the point again.

The article was talking about the demographics of the dead--far too many young males. In other words, it's not just about all civilians like Hamas pretends.

You seem to be the one who missed the point. Even assuming only 1 in 10 alleged civilian deaths are actual Palestinian civilians, there is still a 100 to 1 Palestinian to Israeli civilian death ratio.

 

[untermensche]

I think he meant immediately after the 2005 pullout. Sure there were some restrictions, but considerably less than after the fighting broke out.

It's still a lie.

There were less restrictions but not no restrictions. There has never been a time, not a single day, of no restrictions since 1967.

 

[Jayjay]

I think he meant immediately after the 2005 pullout. Sure there were some restrictions, but considerably less than after the fighting broke out.

It's still a lie.

There were less restrictions but not no restrictions. There has never been a time, not a single day, of no restrictions since 1967.

Nor before 1967.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No restrictions?

That's just a lie.

There are massive restrictions on Gaza. It's entire economic activity is controlled by Israel. Nothing comes in or gets out unless Israel says it's OK. Even medical supplies and food.

1) While the stuff has to go through Israel that doesn't mean it's restricted.

2) Israel is not trying to hamper their economy. It's Hamas trying to.

You see no crimes? That is a joke.

I see no war crimes by Israel. I see plenty of them by Hamas.

The blockade is a crime, the quarantine is a crime, the control over economic activity is a crime. The constant attacks and kidnappings and torture are all crimes. The destruction of private homes is a crime. Every settlement is a crime.

Blockade: Legitimate act of war. They could be a *LOT* more strict and still be legal.

Quarantine: What are you talking about?

Control of economy: Doesn't exist. It's not Israel's fault that the Gaza economy crashed when it became too dangerous for Israel to allow Gazans in.

Attacks: Again, a legitimate act of war.

Kidnappings: What are you talking about? Who are they kidnapping?

Torture: Israel doesn't torture and it would be legal anyway--you can do whatever you want to spies and saboteurs and since they don't fight in uniform that's what any Hamas captive qualifies as.

The difference between the two groups is that Israeli crimes are constant and deep and effect everyone and the crimes of Hamas are sporadic and usually a direct result of Israeli attacks and brutality and they effect a tiny number of Israelis.

Hamas attacks Israel far more often than Israel attacks Gaza. Most shots from Gaza get no response at all.

I do agree that Israel is far more effective than Hamas but that's not a crime.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You seem to be the one who missed the point. Even assuming only 1 in 10 alleged civilian deaths are actual Palestinian civilians, there is still a 100 to 1 Palestinian to Israeli civilian death ratio.

1) The ratio doesn't matter one bit. This isn't a sporting event.

2) While we will never know I would say the number of civilians killed by Hamas likely exceeds the number killed by Israel. I consider human shield deaths to be the responsibility of Hamas, not Israel.

- - - Updated - - -

It's still a lie.

There were less restrictions but not no restrictions. There has never been a time, not a single day, of no restrictions since 1967.

Nor before 1967.

Restrictions before 67? How???

 

[Jayjay]

It's still a lie.

There were less restrictions but not no restrictions. There has never been a time, not a single day, of no restrictions since 1967.

Nor before 1967.

Restrictions before 67? How???

Think about it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I see no war crimes by Israel. I see plenty of them by Hamas.

What war? How can you call this conflict a war? Palestinian attacks on Israel is more like a prison riot than a war. Maybe you could say Hamas is a terrorist group, or freedom fighters depending on what side you prefer, but to call them an army, especially when put next to Israel's is a bit of a joke.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

1) The ratio doesn't matter one bit. This isn't a sporting event.

When developing propaganda to get kids to strap on bombs or to carry a machine gun, it sure the heck does matter. When looking at this from an Israeli POV, it sure the hell matters.

The fact is, the Israeli incursion has killed a boat ton more Israeli soldiers than Israeli civilians as well. So instead of dealing with nuisance rocket attacks that have had only rare tragic consequences, they have launched an effort that has killed dozens of Israelis (soldiers) and several hundred Palestinians. This is a loss for both sides. Neither side is better off because of this action.

2) While we will never know I would say the number of civilians killed by Hamas likely exceeds the number killed by Israel. I consider human shield deaths to be the responsibility of Hamas, not Israel.

They are still fucking dead! You seem to be lacking the grasp on that minor point. Whether they died because Hamas put them in harms way or Israeli fire missed the target is not as important as the fact that they are dead, and their deaths don't help anything. If they do anything, they create more resolve among those to convert more teens and young men to join a hapless cause.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I see no war crimes by Israel. I see plenty of them by Hamas.

What war? How can you call this conflict a war? Palestinian attacks on Israel is more like a prison riot than a war. Maybe you could say Hamas is a terrorist group, or freedom fighters depending on what side you prefer, but to call them an army, especially when put next to Israel's is a bit of a joke.

The division between terrorist and freedom fighter is normally quite easy to see. Denying it amounts to support of terrorism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When developing propaganda to get kids to strap on bombs or to carry a machine gun, it sure the heck does matter. When looking at this from an Israeli POV, it sure the hell matters.

The fact is, the Israeli incursion has killed a boat ton more Israeli soldiers than Israeli civilians as well. So instead of dealing with nuisance rocket attacks that have had only rare tragic consequences, they have launched an effort that has killed dozens of Israelis (soldiers) and several hundred Palestinians. This is a loss for both sides. Neither side is better off because of this action.

Israel is much better off with the tunnels destroyed--a *MAJOR* attack averted.

2) While we will never know I would say the number of civilians killed by Hamas likely exceeds the number killed by Israel. I consider human shield deaths to be the responsibility of Hamas, not Israel.

They are still fucking dead! You seem to be lacking the grasp on that minor point. Whether they died because Hamas put them in harms way or Israeli fire missed the target is not as important as the fact that they are dead, and their deaths don't help anything. If they do anything, they create more resolve among those to convert more teens and young men to join a hapless cause.

Such arguments amount to expecting Israel to just sit there and take it. This is basically saying we should hand the world over to the most evil scum out there because you can't defend yourself against them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel is much better off with the tunnels destroyed--a *MAJOR* attack averted.

The tunnels could have been dealt with strategically without even stepping into Gaza.

2) While we will never know I would say the number of civilians killed by Hamas likely exceeds the number killed by Israel. I consider human shield deaths to be the responsibility of Hamas, not Israel.

They are still fucking dead! You seem to be lacking the grasp on that minor point. Whether they died because Hamas put them in harms way or Israeli fire missed the target is not as important as the fact that they are dead, and their deaths don't help anything. If they do anything, they create more resolve among those to convert more teens and young men to join a hapless cause.

Such arguments amount to expecting Israel to just sit there and take it. This is basically saying we should hand the world over to the most evil scum out there because you can't defend yourself against them.

No. The argument amounts to dozens of dead Israeli soldiers is too high of a price to pay for this incursion. There are much more strategic ways to deal with the tunnels, that wouldn't have threatened a single Israeli soldier, most likely been much less expensive, and not given Hamas more propaganda to enlist more young men to die. It's a win-win-win for Israel all around!

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

What war? How can you call this conflict a war? Palestinian attacks on Israel is more like a prison riot than a war. Maybe you could say Hamas is a terrorist group, or freedom fighters depending on what side you prefer, but to call them an army, especially when put next to Israel's is a bit of a joke.

The division between terrorist and freedom fighter is normally quite easy to see. Denying it amounts to support of terrorism.

What?

 

[Arctish]

What war? How can you call this conflict a war? Palestinian attacks on Israel is more like a prison riot than a war. Maybe you could say Hamas is a terrorist group, or freedom fighters depending on what side you prefer, but to call them an army, especially when put next to Israel's is a bit of a joke.

The division between terrorist and freedom fighter is normally quite easy to see. Denying it amounts to support of terrorism.

Well, if it's easy to see please point out what to look for. What specific features distinguish them?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The division between terrorist and freedom fighter is normally quite easy to see. Denying it amounts to support of terrorism.

What?

Simple:

Terrorist: Aims at civilians.

Freedom fighter: Aims at military forces and/or government.

While terrorists may aim at the occasional military target freedom fighters almost never aim at an inappropriate target.

Note that collateral damage does not count, misses do not count, misidentified targets do not count. What counts is what the guy doing the aiming believes is under the crosshairs.

 

[arkirk]

What?

Simple:

Terrorist: Aims at civilians.

Freedom fighter: Aims at military forces and/or government.

While terrorists may aim at the occasional military target freedom fighters almost never aim at an inappropriate target.

Note that collateral damage does not count, misses do not count, misidentified targets do not count. What counts is what the guy doing the aiming believes is under the crosshairs.

Even if they are entirely inappropriate. Your problem is that you do not accept that the Palestinians have any rights to defend themselves. Being as Palestine has NO MILITARY, has not been allowed to become a country (hence no government) ALL THE CASUALTIES OF THE IDF ATTACK ARE CIVILIANS. It is not a war. It is a slaughter and we are deeply invested.

Derek made a point that the Nazis needed to be crushed out of existence... Nazis had actual Jew killing factories and a system of extermination in place. Gaza has no such thing! Let's not make idiotic pronouncements that are totally without any basis in fact. Also, let's cut down a bit on the hateful language. It is high time to admit we are all brothers and sisters and there is only one human race. We clearly are setting a precedent that only leads to more wars and more killing.

You and Derek seem to seethe with resentment for these terribly oppressed people in Gaza. Come off it! It is not only destructive. It also is unbecoming of a civilized person to hate so utterly and to believe some people are pure evil.

 

[Togo]

What?

Simple:

Terrorist: Aims at civilians.

Freedom fighter: Aims at military forces and/or government.

While terrorists may aim at the occasional military target freedom fighters almost never aim at an inappropriate target.

Note that collateral damage does not count, misses do not count, misidentified targets do not count. What counts is what the guy doing the aiming believes is under the crosshairs.

Ok, so just to confirm, can we have a brief statement from you to the effect that the Hamas Bus bombing of an Israeli military base (that went off too soon and hit civillians), the attacks on border crossings, the previous suicide bombings of solider-frequented bars, and any rocket that is vaguely aimed towards military bases (never mind how accurately) are all acts of heroic freedom fighters, while the IDF 'free fire zone' around the border of Gaza, and covering roughly a quarter of the country, in which anyone entering is killed irrespective of who they are, is the act of terrorist scum?

Or is there some contradiction between your definition here and your previous arguments?

And does this mean that bombing schools is freedom fighting, because they contain teachers who are government employees?

 

[untermensche]

If some nation is oppressing you then THAT NATION makes it's citizens targets.

The root of this problem is Israeli oppression that has lasted for decades.

The root of this problem is not the fact that Israeli civilians are being targeted as a result.