Angela Merkel wants to ban the burka?

[Warpoet]

The difference is that muslims women are coerced to wear burqas, as part of a systematic oppression of their rights and isolating them from the world outside their families. It's always muslim men who oppose such bans much louder than the women.

Quit pulling claims out of your ass and show us the evidence to back your position up.

 

[barbos]

Yeah right, women in muslim countries want to wear it, don't want to drive cars, want to be put to death if raped.

 

[LordKiran]

Conquest and subjugation of the heathen and non-believer is at the heart of all Abrahamic faiths. Whether you wish to remain willingly ignorant of this fact is entirely up to you however.

Unlike their prophet Jesus conducted no conquests, so no, it's not the same.

The Christian world's history of conquest and subjugation of non-christians tells us that it actually is entirely the same. whether ordained by the holy scripture or not, people have and continue to use their faith as justification for the subjugation or usurpation of the rights of others. I already mentioned that the word of the book isn't the same as how people 'interpret' it.

And speaking of interpretation:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19:11-27

the common interpretation of this parable is that the kingdom of god is comming and those who do not accept him will be smited from the world for not accepting him as their rightful king. So you can say whatever you want about a prophet, I think the word of christian god's wrath and distain for non-believers speaks volumes louder.

Afterthought: An amusing thought though is how you can say Jesus may have not killed anybody (As far as we'll ever know) but damn if he wasn't passive aggressive as sin!

 

[barbos]

Unlike their prophet Jesus conducted no conquests, so no, it's not the same.

The Christian world's history of conquest and subjugation of non-christians tells us that it actually is entirely the same. whether ordained by the holy scripture or not, people have and continue to use their faith as justification for the subjugation or usurpation of the rights of others. I already mentioned that the word of the book isn't the same as how people 'interpret' it.

And speaking of interpretation:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19:11-27

the common interpretation of this parable is that the kingdom of god is comming and those who do not accept him will be smited from the world for not accepting him as their rightful king. So you can say whatever you want about a prophet, I think the word of christian god's wrath and distain for non-believers speaks volumes louder.

I have no desire to have theological discussion here, but you can't be serious equating modern islam with modern christianity

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Because the burqa is a symbol of Islamic oppression. Furthermore, it's basically a statement that Muslim men are animals, not humans.

Even though I can follow the line of reasoning that lead you to this conclusion....Wow. Exaggeration much?

No exaggeration.

They say she has to wear the burqa because men can't control themselves upon sight of female flesh.

Not being able to control oneself over something minor is animal behavior, not human behavior.

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Because the burqa is a symbol of Islamic oppression. Furthermore, it's basically a statement that Muslim men are animals, not humans.

The point is some women choose to wear it. The Burqa pre dates Islam.
Forcing women to wear a Burqa is just as bad as forcing them not to wear one. The choice should be theirs

It's usually not, though.

 

[LordKiran]

The Christian world's history of conquest and subjugation of non-christians tells us that it actually is entirely the same. whether ordained by the holy scripture or not, people have and continue to use their faith as justification for the subjugation or usurpation of the rights of others. I already mentioned that the word of the book isn't the same as how people 'interpret' it.

And speaking of interpretation:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19:11-27

the common interpretation of this parable is that the kingdom of god is comming and those who do not accept him will be smited from the world for not accepting him as their rightful king. So you can say whatever you want about a prophet, I think the word of christian god's wrath and distain for non-believers speaks volumes louder.

I have no desire to have theological discussion here, but you can't be serious equating modern islam with modern christianity

People are products of their environment. If you took any evangelical family and put them under the same multi-generation lasting geopolitical and economic pressures, the same damn thing would happen. In either case, both faiths call for the subjugation or punishment of non-believers which was the point of my link.

Also if you didn't want to have a theological debate than why even offer the validity of a religion as a point of contention?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Here's a clip from Richard Dawkins' tv series where he talks with a guy who accuses the west of dressing our women like whores. This is about three minutes in. Richard Dawkins retorts "We don't dress our women. They dress themselves"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8b3vhTO248

Banning burkhas is taking away women's rights to dress themselves. I'm sorry but that violates everything I hold sacred. To paraphrase Voltaire.. I'd be willing to go to war to protect women's rights to dress themselves. I find this ban abhorrent and a violation of women's rights. It's progressiveness going backwards IMHO.

On the racism. General rules that will only negatively impact a minority isn't general rules at all. No matter how generally they are formulated. Since mostly dark people are Muslim I think it's fair to say that the target is dark people. That makes it racist. If the situations was the reverse you could bet yourself that we'd be banning some bullshit associated with Christianity instead. There's zero rational thought behind this. It's just run-of-the-mill racist bullshit.

I can give another example that might shine some light on it. When marijuana was outlawed in USA it wasn't for public health reasons. It was outlawed because only Mexicans smoked weed and they wanted the illegal alien Mexican farmhands to go home. Outlawing the weed gave society another tool by which to harass them. This was for racist reasons. Today it's gone so much time that we can all accept this. It's now a sordid bit of American history.

But you can't have it both ways. Either women (or men) who wear a burqa do so as an expression of an individual right, or they do it because it is mandated by their oppressive religion. If it's the former, then banning the burqa is not "racism", it's a limitation of an individual right whoever they may be. If you admit that it is done with a particular group in mind, a group that happens to have a habit of using the burqa as a tool for oppressing women, then that justifies it. It's better to have thousands of women free of that religious nonsense, even if it means inflicting a temporary minor hurt feelings to a couple of whiners who would want to wear the burqa out of their own free will.

I favor utilitarianism over individual rights: maximum good for maximum number of people. When that idiocy has been stamped out, the ban could be removed.

Aha, so a woman who isn't expressing her freedom to dress herself in the way you want her to she needs to be prohibited from it.... because freedom. No offence, but are you fucking stupid?

Who the fuck are you to protect her from her "oppressive religion"? Newsflash, people are mostly dumb as fuck. That's just life. But we still can't make people more free by forcing them to be free. We all have our own journey to make. That's what freedom is about.

 

[TSwizzle]

Religious freedom isn't about granting special privileges to religious persons.

Of course it is. This is why employers are forced to accommodate muslims that want to take a break so they can perform mumbo jumbo prayers or allow them wear stupid shit instead of the standard uniform or not have to serve pork at the checkout etc.

 

[Jayjay]

This doesn't even come close to making sense.

Then let me spell it out in simple words that even you might understand.

If wearing X is not in any way characteristic to a particular religion (and by statistical correlation one's ethnic background), and you and I might as well wear X as, say, a muslim, then banning X would not disproportionately affect muslims or any other religious or ethnic group. Therefore, it can't be argue to be motivated by racism or bigotry. You could of course still argue that it doesn't make sense in a general sense, or that it is arbitrary, but that was not the point of my reply to DrZoidberg.

"Punishing people" and "incalculable dangers" are hyperbole that ignores that real impact: removal of a cumbersome piece of clothing in favor of something else. It's a insignificant inconvenience at worst. If there was a law to ban top hats for some reason, and I liked to wear a top hat, it would maybe annoy me a bit but wearing a top hat is not a fundamental human right: I might as well wear another type of hat in public, or no hat at all.

This is the kind of shitty logic you always fall back on when you advocate things that are blatantly antidemocratic. "It's really not that bad, so they should just shut up and deal with it." These constitutional protections exist precisely because of people like you.

If it is unconstitional in Germany, then that's up to German legislators and/or judiciary to decide, and you can hardly argue that it is anti-democratic when Merkel brings it up as a campaign talking point for upcoming elections. All countries have laws that limit individual freedoms in minor ways for greater good; the ban on nazi symbols for example. I imagine that not many people would want to march in Nazi uniforms in Germany (the number of those people could be in the same ballpark as people who want to wear a burqa or a niqab), but I don't think it is a grievous injustice to deprive them of that right considering that almost all such people are representatives of a horrible, bigoted ideology.

Thousands of women are being oppressed and forced to wear the burqa in Germany alone. This is not a hypothetical, it's a fact.

Your assertion is not fact. Produce the evidence.

It's a guesstimate. There are about 4 million muslims in Germany, so if one out of 10,000 muslim women wear a burqa (or a hijab more likely) that would mean there are thousands. I don't pretend to know the actual numbers, it could be just hundreds. But obviously there are some, and if there wasn't then the ban would be irrelevant anyway.

Existing laws can't touch it, because they are not going to file criminal charges against their husbands or fathers or alienate their entire families, but they are nevertheless harmed by it.

A) That's not something you actually give a shit about
B) There are all manner of abuses that occur within family settings, Muslim or not, which the government can't help; that doesn't entitle them to start passing draconian laws that strip people of their rights regardless of whether or not any wrongdoing has occurred.

A) Ad hominem. And also false.
B) I care about the rights of the weakest people, those who are forced to wear the burqa/niqab, and are not in a position to fight back unless laws are enacted to help them out. The few provocateurs who choose to wear the garb voluntarily are clearly strong and independent enough that they can survive the minor indignity of having to show their face every now and then.

A public burqa ban will help them break at least a little bit free without facing repercussions, which is a good thing, and this is far more important than a few people being slightly inconvenienced by having to leave out their metaphorical top hats at home.

No it won't. If anything, it will intensify the problem because the oppressors will simply find different, maybe worse ways of oppressing. It is a masturbatory, self-gratifying gesture meant to appease authoritarians like yourself.

You are projecting.

Besides, GErmany already has history of similar laws affecting germans: the ban on nazi symbols and books. Clearly these laws are limiting the freedom of expression of some people, but they are understandable considering Germany's history and the issues they had with Nazis. I don't see the burqa being any different from someone wanting to wear an SS uniform in public.

That's because you have an inherently fucked up, ignorant view of Islam and Muslims.

Nonsense. Most muslims are regular people, who don't force their wifes or daughters to wear the niqab. But generally it is a much more paternalistic and authoritarian religion than the flavors of Christianity you find in the west, not to even speak of the typical non-religious person. There are a lot of children of muslims who are feeling oppressed by their families treating them like whores if they don't wear the veil, for example... the veil is a tool of oppression. These are hard problems to tackle but talking about them publicly helps, regardless of whether any muslim garb is actually banned or not.

 

[Jayjay]

But you can't have it both ways. Either women (or men) who wear a burqa do so as an expression of an individual right, or they do it because it is mandated by their oppressive religion. If it's the former, then banning the burqa is not "racism", it's a limitation of an individual right whoever they may be. If you admit that it is done with a particular group in mind, a group that happens to have a habit of using the burqa as a tool for oppressing women, then that justifies it. It's better to have thousands of women free of that religious nonsense, even if it means inflicting a temporary minor hurt feelings to a couple of whiners who would want to wear the burqa out of their own free will.

I favor utilitarianism over individual rights: maximum good for maximum number of people. When that idiocy has been stamped out, the ban could be removed.

Aha, so a woman who isn't expressing her freedom to dress herself in the way you want her to she needs to be prohibited from it.... because freedom. No offence, but are you fucking stupid?

Who the fuck are you to protect her from her "oppressive religion"? Newsflash, people are mostly dumb as fuck. That's just life. But we still can't make people more free by forcing them to be free. We all have our own journey to make. That's what freedom is about.

Yes, of course I'm fucking stupid, have you never met a Finn? But that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I don't believe that there are hardly any persons wearing the burqa or the niqab as an "expression of their freedom". The majority of them are wearing it because their fathers, husbands or families basically force them to, or because they have been raised from childhood to think that this kind of oppression is ok. Yes, people are dumb as fuck, and that's why we have laws to limit them doing dumb things. We require drivers licenses before driving. We don't allow shops to sell alcohol to inebriated customers. We withold mandatory health insurance and pension payments from one's salary. This is just a one minor blip at the end of the list.

 

[TSwizzle]

Can someone please explain to me why the obsession with telling women how to dress and what they can and cannot wear? I seriously don't get it.

Go to a "ask islam" forum and pose the question there. But you will still "not get it".

 

[J842P]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM4gPMAU4Bs

So apparantly this is now happening. Not sure what the purpose of this is!

It may play to a certain demographic but it wont solve your migrant problem born completely of your decision to invite them all in without any sort of plan or thought for how to handle them all. If anything this will just piss them off even more.

I perceive the Europeans as so schizophrenic on these issues. On one hand, they love the idea of multiculturalism and want to let in all these people and think brush aside the issues. On the other, they won't hesitate to ban a burqa. I suppose it's the classic liberal in me but I can't even imagine banning a religious article of clothing.

 

[J842P]

So people who wear Burkas are automatically islamists?

What else? Ninjas with bad fashion sense?

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Wait, how did this become about Trump? Aren't there enough Trump threads already? And that wrecking ball image is really disturbing.

You do not need to be an Islamist to wear a burqa. You simply have to have a cultural background that finds such a clothing necessary for modesty, and to be religiously observant enough to adhere to the command to be modest. Islamism is a particular brand of political religiosity that may have a lot of overlap with burqa-wearing, but it isn't always the case by any stretch.

 

[J842P]

The recent migrants are not citizens yet. That should make them easier to deport.

Also not that this applies to Germany but from a purely ideological perspective: Why is it acceptable to infringe upon someone's religious freedoms? You can argue that Islamists are bad but not all Muslims are automatically Islamists. Further, what sense does it make to punish Islamists by infringing upon the religious freedoms of Muslims who are otherwise fully integrated into your society, and have nothing to do with Islamism and just want to live and let live?

Fundamentally, Germans are not a very liberal people. Europeans in general are not. They are *much more* xenophobic than Americans, even if they play at being open-minded and accepting, their cultures tend to be very insular. I think part of their mindless multiculturalism stems from a recognition of their own insularity. Not all European cultures, of course. But talk about a continent with very strong ethno-national identities. It's the narcissism of small differences on a continental scale.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't believe that there are hardly any persons wearing the burqa or the niqab as an "expression of their freedom".

How the fuck do you know? Let me guess, you're just speculating freely out your ass?

The majority of them are wearing it because their fathers, husbands or families basically force them to, or because they have been raised from childhood to think that this kind of oppression is ok.

You can make the same case about any clothing. Have you heard about fashion? Militant feminists keep yammering on endlessly about the oppression of the fashion industry. The western world isn't free from oppression or norms or strict social rules regarding what you can or can't wear. I have no problems understanding how there are people who find the Islamic dress liberating.

I hope you will understand how you are part of the problem? By making these kinds of statements you are oppressing women. You're creating a little funnel of acceptable behavior within which you're using social norms to force them into.

And not to beat this into the ground, but regulating it through law is a pretty extreme measure. Being hassled by the police is no fun. Let's not waste policemen's time with this bullshit.

There's also the issue that if we pass this law we rob ourselves from any high horse from which to judge Iran's legal requirement to have the burkha. Now they can point to us and say that we're the same as them. Well done, warrior for freedom.

Yes, people are dumb as fuck, and that's why we have laws to limit them doing dumb things. We require drivers licenses before driving. We don't allow shops to sell alcohol to inebriated customers. We withold mandatory health insurance and pension payments from one's salary. This is just a one minor blip at the end of the list.

And now we will require a dressing licence from the fashion police. This is the dumbest shit I've heard in a long time. Way dumber than Trump getting elected.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Also not that this applies to Germany but from a purely ideological perspective: Why is it acceptable to infringe upon someone's religious freedoms? You can argue that Islamists are bad but not all Muslims are automatically Islamists. Further, what sense does it make to punish Islamists by infringing upon the religious freedoms of Muslims who are otherwise fully integrated into your society, and have nothing to do with Islamism and just want to live and let live?

Fundamentally, Germans are not a very liberal people. Europeans in general are not. They are *much more* xenophobic than Americans, even if they play at being open-minded and accepting, their cultures tend to be very insular. I think part of their mindless multiculturalism stems from a recognition of their own insularity. Not all European cultures, of course. But talk about a continent with very strong ethno-national identities. It's the narcissism of small differences on a continental scale.

But they do have a history of communism and Nazism which means that it's most often political suicide to oppose anti-fascist legislation. But I agree. A deeply conservative country.

Also worth noting that Germany is a union of a group of diverse cultures. Adolf Hitler was only talking shit when he was trying to sell Germany as a single nation. South Germany and North Germany do not have that much in common culturally.

 

[LordKiran]

Aha, so a woman who isn't expressing her freedom to dress herself in the way you want her to she needs to be prohibited from it.... because freedom. No offence, but are you fucking stupid?

Who the fuck are you to protect her from her "oppressive religion"? Newsflash, people are mostly dumb as fuck. That's just life. But we still can't make people more free by forcing them to be free. We all have our own journey to make. That's what freedom is about.

Yes, of course I'm fucking stupid, have you never met a Finn? But that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I don't believe that there are hardly any persons wearing the burqa or the niqab as an "expression of their freedom". The majority of them are wearing it because their fathers, husbands or families basically force them to, or because they have been raised from childhood to think that this kind of oppression is ok. Yes, people are dumb as fuck, and that's why we have laws to limit them doing dumb things. We require drivers licenses before driving. We don't allow shops to sell alcohol to inebriated customers. We withold mandatory health insurance and pension payments from one's salary. This is just a one minor blip at the end of the list.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKY7ravKgLw[/YOUTUBE]

Again, the notion that you're restricting people's freedoms to try and free them is no less laughable now then the first time it was said here. It is no business of yours or anyone else's to tell them what they can and cannot wear, based on your personal assumption that it's forced upon them.

 

[J842P]

Fundamentally, Germans are not a very liberal people. Europeans in general are not. They are *much more* xenophobic than Americans, even if they play at being open-minded and accepting, their cultures tend to be very insular. I think part of their mindless multiculturalism stems from a recognition of their own insularity. Not all European cultures, of course. But talk about a continent with very strong ethno-national identities. It's the narcissism of small differences on a continental scale.

But they do have a history of communism and Nazism which means that it's most often political suicide to oppose anti-fascist legislation. But I agree. A deeply conservative country.

Also worth noting that Germany is a union of a group of diverse cultures. Adolf Hitler was only talking shit when he was trying to sell Germany as a single nation. South Germany and North Germany do not have that much in common culturally.

Right, see, this is exactly what I mean. Considering Germany to be a group of "diverse" cultures. The narcism of small differences. I'm sure there are regional cultural differences in Germany, but it is madness to say that South Germany and North Germany "do no have that much in common culturally."

 

[Jayjay]

How the fuck do you know? Let me guess, you're just speculating freely out your ass?

As much as you are speculating that there are any people who wear it out of freedom of expression.

The majority of them are wearing it because their fathers, husbands or families basically force them to, or because they have been raised from childhood to think that this kind of oppression is ok.

You can make the same case about any clothing. Have you heard about fashion? Militant feminists keep yammering on endlessly about the oppression of the fashion industry. The western world isn't free from oppression or norms or strict social rules regarding what you can or can't wear. I have no problems understanding how there are people who find the Islamic dress liberating.

I hope you will understand how you are part of the problem? By making these kinds of statements you are oppressing women. You're creating a little funnel of acceptable behavior within which you're using social norms to force them into.

And not to beat this into the ground, but regulating it through law is a pretty extreme measure. Being hassled by the police is no fun. Let's not waste policemen's time with this bullshit.

There's also the issue that if we pass this law we rob ourselves from any high horse from which to judge Iran's legal requirement to have the burkha. Now they can point to us and say that we're the same as them. Well done, warrior for freedom.

Eh, I wouldn't support dress codes in my country. But I am also not going to be outraged if other countries, with different circumstances, would want to have minor limitations to most outrageous "freedoms" of expression to curtail harmful ideologies. I also don't support any dress code that is exclusive to women: if veils, niqabs or burkhas are banned, they should be banned for both sexes. Also there are several levels of enforcement, not all of them have to involve the police harrassement. Polite reminders of what is the appropriate attire may suffice.

Yes, people are dumb as fuck, and that's why we have laws to limit them doing dumb things. We require drivers licenses before driving. We don't allow shops to sell alcohol to inebriated customers. We withold mandatory health insurance and pension payments from one's salary. This is just a one minor blip at the end of the list.

And now we will require a dressing licence from the fashion police. This is the dumbest shit I've heard in a long time. Way dumber than Trump getting elected.

The Fashion Police already exists. If I walked around the mall cosplaying Borat in his famous swimsuit, the security guards or the police would quickly escort me out. If I went to a demonstration dressed in Wehrmacht uniform I could be prosecuted for hate speech. But at the same time I can make a Borat fan movie in my own back yard, and I can dress up for world war 2 battle re-enactments with my friends if I choose to. Public and private spheres are quite different things, and I do believe that society has the right to somewhat curtail what everyone can do in public in the interest of everyone getting along.

 

[LordKiran]

As much as you are speculating that there are any people who wear it out of freedom of expression.

Except neither of us are advocating legislature be passed based on speculation.The broader point is that your speculation is just a pretext to restrict one's rights.