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Another Bakery Discrimination Lawsuit

No, it's still just a cake. Is a carrot cake a cake with a message? After all, it has another word before the word cake, so it must be some kind of vegan message, fucking vegans trying to insert their messages into my cake. How about a German chocolate cake. Obviously some kind of Nazi messaging going on there. Don't even get me started on Black Forest cakes...

Well, then if a cake is a cake is a cake since the baker said he would make them a cake there was never any problem.

And to think, we managed to solve that without the government.

Except for the one little fact that the baker refused them service. Ad hoc he tried to come up with some sort of justification for it, but I doubt that he would have baked them anything for their gay wedding.
 
Well, then if a cake is a cake is a cake since the baker said he would make them a cake there was never any problem.

And to think, we managed to solve that without the government.

Except for the one little fact that the baker refused them service. Ad hoc he tried to come up with some sort of justification for it, but I doubt that he would have baked them anything for their gay wedding.

No, he said he would make them a cake. No problem there.
 
Nope, it's called non-discrimination in business. Nobody is forced to run a business; but once they do run a business, they are forced to obey a huge number of rules - about any number of things: book-keeping, non-discrimination, employee health and safety, taxation, labelling, health inspections, etc., etc. If they don't like the rules, they are free to choose not to run a business. ...
I care deeply about free speech. It is not, however, a concept that can rationally apply to a business venture, company or corporation. Free speech is for real human persons, acting on their own cognisance. ...

billby, I've got to hand it to you, you are amazingly consistent. You deserve respect for that.
Why?

And yet when someone of a more free market persuasion says "get a different job" we're derided for cruel insensitivity because it's apparently not that easy to get a new job. We're lectured about wage slavery and how a worker actually has no choices. Logical relativism.
Precisely.

It is no great feat to be amazingly consistent when you have an unfalsifiability engine and you're not afraid to use it. All you need to do to imagine yourself pro-freedom, at the same time you're constraining others to obey every damn rule you feel like imposing on them, is to label every action you wish to authorize an action of the "person", and label every action you wish to prohibit an action of a "business" being operated by the person. If bilby wanted to, he could claim the public has the right to order an Imam to go into a Catholic church and preach that Muslims are going to Hell if he wants to be allowed to keep his job at the mosque, and still claim to "care deeply about free speech". All he'd need to do is define preaching as a "business". The distinction between an economic activity that requires a state license and one that doesn't is not one found in nature; it is whatever the lawmakers please.

When you authorize yourself to make up the boundary any way you bloody well please between when "get a different job" is and isn't an acceptable argument, it takes exactly as much strength of character to be amazingly consistent as when you achieve your amazing consistency by saying "God said it; I believe it; that settles it."
 
No, one is about a shop owner refusing to make a wedding cake, the other was about an owner refusing to put a hate message on a cake.

Why is this a meaningful difference in any legal sense?

How can you argue a baker may be forced to bake a cake with Message X but not Message Y based on the content of X and Y?

Mustn't the government's involvement with regulating expression be content neutral?
THERE IS NO MESSAGE ON A WEDDING CAKE!!!!!

And if you want to insist that the weeding cake itself is the message, then the baker cannot discriminate against one couple by refusing to make exactly the same cake as s/he would bake for another couple.
 
To make things simple, here is a table.

Original Case
Hack Case
Cake design requested
Wedding
Bible
Would bakery make cake
No
Yes
Any specific mods to design
N/A
Wanted hate epitaph
Would bakery make customization
N/A
No

But the bakery would make a cake in the first case. Just not a cake with a certain message. I feel like this has been stated and restated multiple times now so there's really no excuse to keep ignoring it.

You can state it six bazillion times and you would still be wrong. The baker refused to make the cake in the Colorado case and all of the others I linked to.
 
A wedding cake is a cake with a message. If it wasn't we would call it "a cake".

And the baker in question, who is really the only person that matters, certainly felt it contained a message.

No, it's still just a cake. Is a carrot cake a cake with a message? After all, it has another word before the word cake, so it must be some kind of vegan message, fucking vegans trying to insert their messages into my cake. How about a German chocolate cake. Obviously some kind of Nazi messaging going on there. Don't even get me started on Black Forest cakes...

:hysterical:
 
Except for the one little fact that the baker refused them service. Ad hoc he tried to come up with some sort of justification for it, but I doubt that he would have baked them anything for their gay wedding.

No, he said he would make them a cake. No problem there.

He claimed that after the fact. At the time, he refused.

He also said he would make a WEDDING cake for dogs, but not for a gay couple. So the bake thinks dog marriages are fine, but gay marriages are threatening the institution of marriage. :rolleyes:

Try to spin it however you like, but the baker discriminated against that couple.
 
So far the totality of your argument has been "people must do what bilby says they must do". Why must people who trade their labor for pay provide that service for every person who might wish to hire them? Isn't that called involuntary servitude?
Nope, it's called non-discrimination in business. Nobody is forced to run a business; but once they do run a business, they are forced to obey a huge number of rules - about any number of things: book-keeping, non-discrimination, employee health and safety, taxation, labelling, health inspections, etc., etc. If they don't like the rules, they are free to choose not to run a business.

You are still dodging my basic question,"why must people who trade their labor for pay (be compelled to) provide that service for every person who might wish to hire them?" Why is it just that the State impose its version of "non-discrimination" (the abrogation of the freedom of contract) on a person? Telling us that nobody is forced to run a business and that they are already forced to obey "any number of things" is an accurate observation, it as true of Nazi Germany, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, or the Soviet Union as it is in Colorado. That does not mean that all, some, or any of those "number of things" must be morally just, does it? So far all you are advancing is the circular "argument" that "whatever rule exists is backed by compulsion and must be okay because I, Bilby, observed they EXIST and that they must be obeyed!".

Finally, at least on a moral and normative basis it is a form of involuntary servitude. Involuntary servitude is unjust coercion to force someone to labor on to benefit another. Punishing people who don't wish to sell their services for gay marriage celebrations, and denying them the right to pursue their livelihood if they don't, is coercive and involuntary servitude in the service of another party - in this case to gays wanting wedding cakes.

(But as you compared your "non-discrimination" rule to be the same as a requirement for business book-keeping, I would be most curious about how a rule to prevent fraud is the same as a rule to force the provision of wedding cakes to anyone.)

The message is irrelevant to the baker. If that message breaks the law - for example if it constitutes a credible threat to the life of the President - then it is the person who requested the message who is at fault. AT&T are not at fault if their wires carry illegal messages. They have neither the duty, nor the right, to censor their customers.
Nonsense

First, your analogy has already been imploded. "ATT" provides telecommunication lines, not speech or content. In this case the baker is being asked to CREATE the message agreeable to a client, not just to deliver it. In this analogy ATT and Pillsbury do not create content, so they should not held "liable" because they had no role in creation of the actual message or artistic expression. On the other hand, if ATT, a writer or artist does create criminal speech, even if on behalf of another, they can be held liable (aka a "conspiracy").

Second, the fact that the law exempts telephone companies from their user's speech if it used for criminal purposes says NOTHING about the right of a person to create, or refuse to create, an expression or speech (regardless of that speech's legality). Moreover, THERE IS NO DUTY because of the right of providers of telecommunications services to permit OR prohibit users from using their services to send content; it is precisely because they are not owned by the government and are commercial that gives them the right to banish speech. When a user clicks "I agree" it is a contractual relationship between provider and user.

Lastly, the message is not irrelevant to the baker's rights because you declare it must be so. The first amendment establishes a principle that you (apparently) dismiss, the idea that the government can make NO LAW on the EXERCISE of free speech or press - the word exercise being the right of a speaker, writer or artist to choose which speech or expression he/she creates OR chooses not to create notwithstanding any state law to the contrary. The First Amendment "includes both the right to speak freely and the right to refrain from speaking at all," the court has said, and that applies even more strongly to forcing people to create symbolic messages they don't agree with.

The government violates a persons freedom of mind and freedom of speech when it compels a person to honor the flag by saluting, just as it does when it compels a baker to honor a gay marriage by creating a wedding cake.

Other than the fact you don't care about free speech, you have told us nothing.
Or perhaps you have understood nothing because your biases are getting in the way of your reading comprehension.

I care deeply about free speech. It is not, however, a concept that can rationally apply to a business venture, company or corporation. Free speech is for real human persons, acting on their own cognisance. If you run a business, then you have the right, as a person, to say whatever crazy shit you like - but your business does not have the right to refuse to trade with a customer for the sole reason of disliking that customer's message. That would be a contravention of the customer's free speech.

Actually you were quite clear in your hostility to free speech, answering yes to every form of government compelled speech I questioned. And you end your post with the same tripe you keep asserting, without offering a parsley sprig of justification. The questions linger - why cant free speech apply to a person in business? Since when are owner-bakers not "real human persons"? How can they "act on their own cognizance" and exercise free speech/expression if YOU support laws that forbid it?

Since "your business" is YOU, your labor and property, why don't you have a right to refuse trade because you do not wish to support another's point of view? If as a baker you don't own yourself you own nothing - apparently you think the government (or the buyer) owns you.

Finally, you have no understanding of the philosophical or moral meaning of free speech (and freedom of the press). It is the right of people to speak, write, and express any thought or criticism in political-social-religious life (or refuse to do so), without being subject to criminal or civil government coercion or a need for permission (including licensing). It means that any person can endorse or criticize any law, custom, or opinion.

Whether or not a newspaper, religion, publishing company, artist, singer, or theater group is organized for trade (a business) is irrelevant - ALL have a right to free speech.

And yes, the gay folks also have a right to free speech, to bake a cake or find willing agents to do - but they should not have a right to force others to speak on their behalf, even if they are willing to pay them for it.
 
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Dismal, a word describing a certain person's reading comprehension. Synonymous with 'obtuse' in this usage.

Pay very close attention, your usage is not the definition used, but the full context of placement. Force means what you think it means, but the usage in front of (to bake a cake) is inappropriate. Nobody is being forced to bake a cake. Your claim is that people are being forced to bake a cake. This is not true. Hence your usage of 'force' is inappropriate.

Wrong - see my analysis which eviscerates your argument. Synonymous with failure to consult a dictionary.
 
Dismal,

Oddly, RavenSky seems intentionally unaware of any evidence I repeatedly cite to her, so feel free to re-quote those citations to her. Otherwise one might have to assume she is Edited hoping to sneak it by us.

No, he said he would make them a cake. No problem there.

He claimed that after the fact. At the time, he refused.

No, that does not honor the truth acknowledged by all but Ravesky. The judge summary:

Findings of Fact
The following facts are undisputed:

1. Phillips owns and operates a bakery located in Lakewood, Colorado
known as Masterpiece Cakeshop, Inc. Phillips and Masterpiece Cakeshop are
collectively referred to herein as Respondents.

2. Masterpiece Cakeshop is a place of public accommodation within the
meaning of § 24-34-601(1), C.R.S.

3. Among other baked products, Respondents create and sell wedding
cakes.

4. On July 19, 2012, Complainants Charlie Craig and David Mullins entered
Masterpiece Cakeshop in the company of Mr. Craig’s mother, Deborah Munn.

5. Complainants sat down with Phillips at the cake consulting table. They
introduced themselves as “David” and “Charlie” and said that they wanted a wedding
cake for “our wedding.”

6. Phillips informed Complainants that he does not create wedding cakes for
same-sex weddings. Phillips told the men, “I’ll make you birthday cakes, shower cakes,
sell you cookies and brownies, I just don’t make cakes for same-sex weddings.”

7. Complainants immediately got up and left the...

There is no "after the fact" about it. He informed them he does not make wedding cakes for same sex marriage BUT will make any other cake they like.

He also said he would make a WEDDING cake for dogs, but not for a gay couple. So the bake thinks dog marriages are fine, but gay marriages are threatening the institution of marriage. :rolleyes:
Perhaps he does not think gay marriage is a joke, like a "marriage" between dogs. On the other hand, perhaps he should? ;)

Try to spin it however you like, but the baker discriminated against that couple.
No-spin, just the facts. He discriminated against a cultural ceremony because he considers it a sin for gays to "marry". He did not discriminate because of their sexual preferences. They could contract for any other special occasion cake (except a Halloween cake, which he also won't make for us Pagans).
 
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You are still dodging my basic question,"why must people who trade their labor for pay (be compelled to) provide that service for every person who might wish to hire them?" Why is it just that the State impose its version of "non-discrimination" (the abrogation of the freedom of contract) on a person?
They don't have to unless they're a public accommodation. Categories of person (going about legitimate business) discriminated against in public accommodations are effectively second class citizens, suffering material hardship and psychological distress. If you really don't share the moral perception (and some, through no fault of their own, don't) underpinning anti-discrimination, no-one can explain it to you in terms of abstract rules like property rights. It'd be like trying to describe a colour to which you're congenitally blind.
 
He discriminated against a cultural ceremony because he considers it a sin for gays to "marry". He did not discriminate because of their sexual preferences. They could contract for any other special occasion cake
Then how isn't he discriminating by their sexual preference? Cakes for heterosexual marriage : fine. Cakes for occasions unrelated to romantic/sexual commitment : dandy.

Rather like a barman refusing to serve you whisky because he disapproves of women/Irishmen/whatever drinking strong liquor : a transparent pretext for discriminating against a category of person.
 
You are still dodging my basic question,"why must people who trade their labor for pay (be compelled to) provide that service for every person who might wish to hire them?" Why is it just that the State impose its version of "non-discrimination" (the abrogation of the freedom of contract) on a person?
They don't have to unless they're a public accommodation. Categories of person (going about legitimate business) discriminated against in public accommodations are effectively second class citizens, suffering material hardship and psychological distress.

First, the question I proffered was a question of justice; i.e. a moral values question. That they must sell the cake because of public accommodation law does NOT tell us why, from a moral perspective, if such a law is just or should exist.

Second, telling me that the reason is they are effectively "second class citizens" is very imprecise and meaningless - all it means (so far) is that anyone in a particular category who does not get their way and force others to service them is "second class". That they suffer "material hardship" or "distress" is equally unsatisfactory - just about everybody suffers periods of hardship and distress in their lives, does that make everyone a second class citizen? Does that mean the government has to cause hardship and distress on others of your (or anyone's) choosing...even when it clear that the "hardship" of the gay couples' is microscopic and the hardship on the baker is real and substantive?

If you really don't share the moral perception (and some, through no fault of their own, don't) underpinning anti-discrimination, no-one can explain it to you in terms of abstract rules like property rights. It'd be like trying to describe a colour to which you're congenitally blind.

To the contrary, if one cannot explain the abstract principles behind anti-discrimination theory then anti-discrimination folk have no theory at all - nothing but 'gut' feelings calling for the hardship and distress on this baker so as to get the gay couple a cake. And without a social-political theory, there can be no protection of individual rights or moral limits on the power of the state to do as it pleases - be in the US or other "democracies", or in any number of authoritarian regimes.

There is no doubt there is a broad and mutable prejudice against so-called discrimination (rooted in our race history), but there is precious little justification for current anti-discrimination law in common discourse other than "I don't like people making private decisions on a basis that I feel is irrational or wrong". That such gut feelings are in conflict with principles of liberty, contradict other claims of human rights, arbitrary, and are often contradictory does not shame them in the least. And why should it? When folks are trained to internalize a premise in a sea of consensus, and thus ignore its soundness they ASSUME the conclusion to be obvious. And so they are caught wrong-footed when someone challenges them to explain it.

I challenge that view. I start from a simple first principle human beings own their own bodies and the labor of their body.Self-ownership is a natural and inalienable right from which all other rights flow, which means slavery is wrong because it is premised on the notion that someone can own another, and their bodies labor, without another's consent or cooperation. Chattel slavery treats people as property, without any inherent rights or freedom of action.

Hence, the use of the labor of another requires their consent. There may be mutual consents - you may use my labor if you provide me your labor (or the fruits of your labor, i.e. money). The question becomes, if a person does not own his body and his/her bodies labor (and talents), who does? In the case of the baker, apparently the state owns a portion of him because they may compel him to sell (or not sell) his work to whom they please. And if they own his body, they also own all the workers labor and the clients as well - the state claims a right to create transactions without the consent of one or both parties.

Anti-discrimination laws do not remove consent requirements for all kinds if discrimination, they remove mutable kinds of discrimination that the law makers desire in the moment. Such laws might say discrimination (to choose) in the hiring of an employee on the basis of looks is not discrimination, but on the basis of sex it is. Such laws are usually justified on what the state considers reasonable - not unlike laws that might ban targeted religions and political speech based on what the state considers "reasonable". But such 'bans' are not based on a moral justification - it is merely a statement that the state ought to do what it pleases because it "owns" folks and their labor - as true of the slaves of the South, the citizens of the former Soviet Union, as it is in the State of Colorado.

Is that not the root of such "anti-discrimination" prejudices?
 
They don't have to unless they're a public accommodation. Categories of person (going about legitimate business) discriminated against in public accommodations are effectively second class citizens, suffering material hardship and psychological distress.

First, the question I proffered was a question of justice;
Which misstated who was obligated to do what.
i.e. a moral values question. That they must sell the cake because of public accommodation law does NOT tell us why, from a moral perspective, if such a law is just or should exist.
Of course not, since it is the law. But the highlighted bit does. Morality for most folks is about empathy and pro-social behaviors. It's ultimately biological (not abstract), with a fairly obvious evolutionary rationale. Other folks, through no fault of their own, lack empathy and substitute abstract rules, typically property rights.

Second, telling me that the reason is they are effectively "second class citizens" is very imprecise and meaningless - all it means (so far) is that anyone in a particular category who does not get their way and force others to service them is "second class". That they suffer "material hardship" or "distress" is equally unsatisfactory - just about everybody suffers periods of hardship and distress in their lives, does that make everyone a second class citizen? Does that mean the government has to cause hardship and distress on others of your (or anyone's) choosing...even when it clear that the "hardship" of the gay couples' is microscopic and the hardship on the baker is real and substantive?
No, it means entire categories of people shouldn't be denied access to public accommodations through accident of birth. Individuals may choose to operate public accommodations but not their skin colour or sexual orientation. If you thus had to go to the next town for groceries and might be refused service in every other bar and restaurant, there'd be nothing "meaningless" about it.

If you really don't share the moral perception (and some, through no fault of their own, don't) underpinning anti-discrimination, no-one can explain it to you in terms of abstract rules like property rights. It'd be like trying to describe a colour to which you're congenitally blind.

To the contrary, if one cannot explain the abstract principles behind anti-discrimination theory then anti-discrimination folk have no theory at all - nothing but 'gut' feelings calling for the hardship and distress on this baker so as to get the gay couple a cake. And without a social-political theory, there can be no protection of individual rights or moral limits on the power of the state to do as it pleases - be in the US or other "democracies", or in any number of authoritarian regimes.

There is no doubt there is a broad and mutable prejudice against so-called discrimination (rooted in our race history), but there is precious little justification for current anti-discrimination law in common discourse other than "I don't like people making private decisions on a basis that I feel is irrational or wrong". That such gut feelings are in conflict with principles of liberty, contradict other claims of human rights, arbitrary, and are often contradictory does not shame them in the least. And why should it? When folks are trained to internalize a premise in a sea of consensus, and thus ignore its soundness they ASSUME the conclusion to be obvious. And so they are caught wrong-footed when someone challenges them to explain it.

I challenge that view. I start from a simple first principle human beings own their own bodies and the labor of their body.Self-ownership is a natural and inalienable right from which all other rights flow, which means slavery is wrong because it is premised on the notion that someone can own another, and their bodies labor, without another's consent or cooperation. Chattel slavery treats people as property, without any inherent rights or freedom of action.

Hence, the use of the labor of another requires their consent. There may be mutual consents - you may use my labor if you provide me your labor (or the fruits of your labor, i.e. money). The question becomes, if a person does not own his body and his/her bodies labor (and talents), who does? In the case of the baker, apparently the state owns a portion of him because they may compel him to sell (or not sell) his work to whom they please. And if they own his body, they also own all the workers labor and the clients as well - the state claims a right to create transactions without the consent of one or both parties.

Anti-discrimination laws do not remove consent requirements for all kinds if discrimination, they remove mutable kinds of discrimination that the law makers desire in the moment. Such laws might say discrimination (to choose) in the hiring of an employee on the basis of looks is not discrimination, but on the basis of sex it is. Such laws are usually justified on what the state considers reasonable - not unlike laws that might ban targeted religions and political speech based on what the state considers "reasonable". But such 'bans' are not based on a moral justification - it is merely a statement that the state ought to do what it pleases because it "owns" folks and their labor - as true of the slaves of the South, the citizens of the former Soviet Union, as it is in the State of Colorado.

Is that not the root of such "anti-discrimination" prejudices?
I think the brief post to which you reply stands in response to most of this. Except : 'inalienable right to self-ownership' is contradictory nonsense. Ownership is a relation of persons to things such that the person may dispose of the thing in any legal manner. If you own a thing, you can sell or gift it and thereby not own it. Ownership means alienability. You own your toothbrush, you are yourself. We thus accord persons rights which supersede our relation to things. You cheapen and demean personhood.

Also, the very fact of slavery means there is patently no such 'inalienable' or 'natural' right. However much you wish it weren't so, whatever rights you have depend on the willingness of others to observe, defend and enforce them.
 
Dismal,

Oddly, RavenSky seems intentionally unaware of any evidence I repeatedly cite to her, so feel free to re-quote those citations to her. Otherwise one might have to assume she is intentionally fabricating "pull it from the dark region" untruths and hoping to sneak it by us.

He claimed that after the fact. At the time, he refused.

No, that does not honor the truth acknowledged by all but Ravesky. The judge summary:

Findings of Fact
The following facts are undisputed:

1. Phillips owns and operates a bakery located in Lakewood, Colorado
known as Masterpiece Cakeshop, Inc. Phillips and Masterpiece Cakeshop are
collectively referred to herein as Respondents.

2. Masterpiece Cakeshop is a place of public accommodation within the
meaning of § 24-34-601(1), C.R.S.

3. Among other baked products, Respondents create and sell wedding
cakes.

4. On July 19, 2012, Complainants Charlie Craig and David Mullins entered
Masterpiece Cakeshop in the company of Mr. Craig’s mother, Deborah Munn.

5. Complainants sat down with Phillips at the cake consulting table. They
introduced themselves as “David” and “Charlie” and said that they wanted a wedding
cake for “our wedding.”

6. Phillips informed Complainants that he does not create wedding cakes for
same-sex weddings. Phillips told the men, “I’ll make you birthday cakes, shower cakes,
sell you cookies and brownies, I just don’t make cakes for same-sex weddings.”

7. Complainants immediately got up and left the...

There is no "after the fact" about it. He informed them he does not make wedding cakes for same sex marriage BUT will make any other cake they like.

He also said he would make a WEDDING cake for dogs, but not for a gay couple. So the bake thinks dog marriages are fine, but gay marriages are threatening the institution of marriage. :rolleyes:
Perhaps he does not think gay marriage is a joke, like a "marriage" between dogs. On the other hand, perhaps he should? ;)

Try to spin it however you like, but the baker discriminated against that couple.
No-spin, just the facts. He discriminated against a cultural ceremony because he considers it a sin for gays to "marry". He did not discriminate because of their sexual preferences. They could contract for any other special occasion cake (except a Halloween cake, which he also won't make for us Pagans).

You and dismal keep harping on this "a wedding cake is a message" bullshit, but I would ask you to take a look at the portion of your undisputed facts that I placed in boldface above. The baker is refusing to make any cake for a gay marriage, not just a wedding cake. So, it's not that a wedding cake conveys a message, it's that the baker is a bigoted asshole who refuses to bake cakes for gays who have the audacity to get married.
 
Amazing. Conservolibertarians (whoops, I meant to say "conservatives and libertarians, who are completely different, but just happen to have the same stances on most issues") will defend even this, won't they?

Is it possible for something to be so wrong and so immoral that they won't defend it?
 
I don't see how the bakery can be expected to write any message if the "customer" refuses to provide them with what he wanted written in the first place.

Bingo! I would have required a signed document from the customer, clearly indicating the request. This is a normal vendor management process.. document the requirements and provide signoff. If they feel it is hate speech (which it is) and want to refuse, they could then simply file a complaint to their local police that a customer was engaging in hate speech and was asked to leave. The complaint is evidence they intended to serve the customer, but their request would force them to violate the law (with respect to hate speech).
 
I don't see how the bakery can be expected to write any message if the "customer" refuses to provide them with what he wanted written in the first place.

Bingo! I would have required a signed document from the customer, clearly indicating the request. This is a normal vendor management process.. document the requirements and provide signoff. If they feel it is hate speech (which it is) and want to refuse, they could then simply file a complaint to their local police that a customer was engaging in hate speech and was asked to leave. The complaint is evidence they intended to serve the customer, but their request would force them to violate the law (with respect to hate speech).

I hate to burst your bubble, but there are no laws against hate speech in the US.
 
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