Another Bakery Discrimination Lawsuit

[Tom Sawyer]

So, you're living in a small town of conservative Christians, most of whom are very anti-gay. A gay couple moves into the town. Most of the businesses put up signs saying that gays aren't allowed in their business and the town as a whole supports the businesses which do this. Should the gay couple just lose out and not be allowed to do any shopping in their new home town?

Is this a big problem in this case? Or anywhere at all in the actual world?

Change it to black and there are numerous real-world examples. Or Irish. Or pretty much any other group which hasn't been liked at one time or another.

 

[arkirk]

Is this a big problem in this case? Or anywhere at all in the actual world?

Change it to black and there are numerous real-world examples. Or Irish. Or pretty much any other group which hasn't been liked at one time or another.

So then you support the lawsuit and think all this fuss over a cake is justified and PRACTICAL TO PURSUE?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Change it to black and there are numerous real-world examples. Or Irish. Or pretty much any other group which hasn't been liked at one time or another.

So then you support the lawsuit and think all this fuss over a cake is justified and PRACTICAL TO PURSUE?

Which lawsuit? If the one in the OP then no I don't for the reasons discussed.

 

[dismal]

Is this a big problem in this case? Or anywhere at all in the actual world?

Change it to black and there are numerous real-world examples. Or Irish. Or pretty much any other group which hasn't been liked at one time or another.

Yes, I remember my Irish grandmother telling me that I was almost never born because they couldn't find a baker willing to bake the Irish a wedding cake.

Actually, I was not aware of this, but this fellow seems to think the whole "Irish Need Not Apply" thing was a bit of an urban legend.

It is possible that handwritten NINA signs regarding maids did appear in a few American windows, though no one ever reported one. We DO have actual newspaper want ads for women workers that specifies Irish are not wanted; they will be discussed below. In the entire file of the New York Times from 1851 to 1923, there are two NINA ads for men, one of which is for a teenager. Computer searches of classified help wanted ads in the daily editions of other online newspapers before 1923 such as the Booklyn Eagle, the Washington Post and the Chicago Tribune show that NINA ads for men were extremely rare--fewer than two per decade. The complete absence of evidence suggests that probably zero such signs were seen at commercial establishments, shops, factories, stores, hotels, railroads, union halls, hiring halls, personnel offices, labor recruiters etc. anywhere in America, at any time.

Irish Americans all have heard about them—and remember elderly relatives insisting they existed. The myth had "legs": people still believe it, even scholars. The late Tip O'Neill remembered the signs from his youth in Boston in 1920s; Senator Ted Kennedy reported the most recent sighting, telling the Senate during a civil rights debate that he saw them when growing up 5 Historically, [End Page 405] physical NINA signs could have flourished only in intensely anti-Catholic or anti-Irish eras, especially the 1830—1870 period. Thus reports of sightings in the 1920s or 1930s suggest the myth had become so deeply rooted in Irish-American folk mythology that it was impervious to evidence.

http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Change it to black and there are numerous real-world examples. Or Irish. Or pretty much any other group which hasn't been liked at one time or another.

Yes, I remember my Irish grandmother telling me that I was almost never born because they couldn't find a baker willing to bake the Irish a wedding cake.

Actually, I was not aware of this, but this fellow seems to think the whole "Irish Need Not Apply" thing was a bit of an urban legend.

Fair enough, I don't actually know enough about the No Irish stuff to be able to speak to the historical accuracy of it and am only aware of the pictures mentioned.

Let's go with whites only diners. If there are enough racists in a given town to support its business model, should a restaurant be allowed to deny service to blacks?

 

[maxparrish]

Yes, I remember my Irish grandmother telling me that I was almost never born because they couldn't find a baker willing to bake the Irish a wedding cake.

Actually, I was not aware of this, but this fellow seems to think the whole "Irish Need Not Apply" thing was a bit of an urban legend.

Fair enough, I don't actually know enough about the No Irish stuff to be able to speak to the historical accuracy of it and am only aware of the pictures mentioned.

Let's go with whites only diners. If there are enough racists in a given town to support its business model, should a restaurant be allowed to deny service to blacks?

Of course.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Fair enough, I don't actually know enough about the No Irish stuff to be able to speak to the historical accuracy of it and am only aware of the pictures mentioned.

Let's go with whites only diners. If there are enough racists in a given town to support its business model, should a restaurant be allowed to deny service to blacks?

Of course.

And that's the objection that I have.

 

[maxparrish]

Of course.

And that's the objection that I have.

Why do you object to people associating with who they prefer, rather than who you prefer?

 

[fromderinside]

And that's the objection that I have.

Why do you object to people associating with who they prefer, rather than who you prefer?

What I prefer has nothing to do with what takes place when an open job market place work marketplace is enforced. All markets are biased. Insisting on limiting those biases brings more people into the job market. Society is actually about sets of groups having intercourse within a territory governing framework. Less bias in that intercourse more intercourse.

 

[dismal]

Yes, I remember my Irish grandmother telling me that I was almost never born because they couldn't find a baker willing to bake the Irish a wedding cake.

Actually, I was not aware of this, but this fellow seems to think the whole "Irish Need Not Apply" thing was a bit of an urban legend.

Fair enough, I don't actually know enough about the No Irish stuff to be able to speak to the historical accuracy of it and am only aware of the pictures mentioned.

Let's go with whites only diners. If there are enough racists in a given town to support its business model, should a restaurant be allowed to deny service to blacks?

In general I think a restaurant should be able to deny service to anyone for any reason. I would personally not attend such a restaurant and would encourage other to boycott it as well.

However, that is not the issue here. I can accept for the sake of argument the law requires a bakery to serve all customers.

This is not a case where the baker refuses to serve a customer, it's a case where the baker does not want to make a specific cake because of the message. The customer could a) easily buy a cake elsewhere b) buy a cake from this baker without the message and decorate it elsewhere however he wishes. He could even make a cake himself.

I don't see how fear that someone would not be able to get a cake, horrible as that might be, justifies the government forcing the baker to produce a cake with a message he disagrees with.

 

[arkirk]

And that's the objection that I have.

Why do you object to people associating with who they prefer, rather than who you prefer?

Eating at a restaurant is not "associating." It is eating. People eat often because they get hungry. Racist restaurants really deserve no quarter. We also have restaurants with dress codes which often dictate expensive attire...or whose food and bells and whistles entertainment etc. are beyond the reach of poor people. So in those cases color supposedly wouldn't matter...as long as you were rich.. In all fairness to them, their stuff is more expensive to produce. We cannot make a rule to eliminate all discrimination, but racism is one that has clear parameters and should not be allowed in a public business.

 

[RavenSky]

Fair enough, I don't actually know enough about the No Irish stuff to be able to speak to the historical accuracy of it and am only aware of the pictures mentioned.

Let's go with whites only diners. If there are enough racists in a given town to support its business model, should a restaurant be allowed to deny service to blacks?

In general I think a restaurant should be able to deny service to anyone for any reason. I would personally not attend such a restaurant and would encourage other to boycott it as well.

However, that is not the issue here. I can accept for the sake of argument the law requires a bakery to serve all customers.

This is not a case where the baker refuses to serve a customer, it's a case where the baker does not want to make a specific cake because of the message.

Which case are you talking about????? The OP case?

 

[bilby]

If he makes bigoted message cakes, he has to make bigoted message cakes for every bigotry. If he makes a 'Jews caused 9/11' cake, he can't refuse to make an 'Obama/Muslim' cake.

Why? In our society we generally do not force private citizens to say things they don't want to say.

What is so special about cakes?

They are a medium, not a message.

You can't force AT&T to say something bigoted; but you can reasonably expect to be allowed to say bigoted things to your friends using their telephone wires.

The baker is being asked to produce a cake with a message on it. He is not being asked to compose the message, just to transmit it. He has no say in the content of the speech, as it isn't the baker doing the speaking.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Is this a big problem in this case? Or anywhere at all in the actual world?

Change it to black and there are numerous real-world examples. Or Irish. Or pretty much any other group which hasn't been liked at one time or another.

One, you didn't answer dismal's question.

Two, assuming we pretend your response is an answer, you're forgetting that Jim Crow needed force of Law from Government to make it work. As in an assembly body got together, drafted legislation, and then passed said legislation.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

And that's the objection that I have.

Why do you object to people associating with who they prefer, rather than who you prefer?

Make the diner a private club and you keep out anyone you want. HOWEVER, it's when you want the PUBLIC'S business, then you have to deal with the PUBLIC'S laws. Now there are exceptions (Like Mrs. Murphy's renting exemption) so all you have to prove is that diners are intimate spaces existing traditionally and demonstrably in the personal sphere of social interaction.

 

[laughing dog]

Utterly fascinating watching people defend discrimination under the guise of "freedom of association" or "freedom of speech" or "freedom of religion". It's as if they don't recognize the 20th century, let alone the 21st one.

 

[fromderinside]

Utterly fascinating watching people defend discrimination under the guise of "freedom of association" or "freedom of speech" or "freedom of religion". It's as if they don't recognize the 20th century, let alone the 21st one.

Its worse. We're watching people defending bigotry.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

There exists in the United States an entire economy that exists between and among private individuals. They buy and sell and associate only among those people with whom they feel comfortable. Anyone can gather together with the likeminded and conduct business. They need only keep the transactions private and legal.

I find the bakery cases fascinating. A couple's wedding is a public display of a commitment to intimacy. An invitation to participate in a wedding is more than just a business transaction, it is an invitation to participate in a sacrament.

How does one legislate such a thing?

 

[Nexus]

To those that think a baker that makes things with messages must not discriminate, should a Jewish baker be forced to make a cake decorated with a swastika if they already make cakes with a star of David? Or should they be forced to bake a cake with a cross even if they feel that symbol blasphemes their belief that the Messiah hasn't come yet?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And that's the objection that I have.

Why do you object to people associating with who they prefer, rather than who you prefer?

Because they're not "associating", they're conducting business. One of the costs of conducting business in a community should be opening your business to everyone in that community. If you want to have a barbecue in your backyard, you can keep all the dirty spics that you want away and only associate with whomever you choose. If you want to open a barbecue restaurant, you swallow your bile and serve the wetbacks the same as everyone else.