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Another Climate-Change Summit crashes and burns. Why?

Who is to blame that there's no progress in fossil-fuel reductions?

  • dirty greedy capitalists

    Votes: 3 60.0%
  • Republicans & Trump

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Christian Right

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Jews

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Neoliberals

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The KKK

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No blame, "Climate-Change" is a hoax!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Arabs

    Votes: 1 20.0%
  • Consumers/Voters who oppose gas tax increase

    Votes: 1 20.0%

  • Total voters
    5

Lumpenproletariat

Veteran Member
Joined
May 9, 2014
Messages
2,570
Basic Beliefs
---- "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
Everyone who really cares about climate change and the need to reduce carbon emissions is agreeing that the current Climate-Change summit in Dubai is a disaster, total failure to produce any needed change.


Why can't any progress be made? What stands in the way?
 
BBC said:
Humans burning fossil fuels is driving global warming, risking millions of lives, but governments have never agreed how or when to stop using them.

With nonsense like this, the BBC needs to be defunded from the public.
 
One thing for sure:

Both Right- and Left-wing crusaders, Reds & Blues, are to blame. Both are rabidly against increasing gasoline taxes, which would do more to fix what's wrong than anything else anyone is proposing.

But populists like Trump and Bernie Sanders etc. have to pander to the mindless masses who think they're entitled to cheap gasoline as a God-given right. And of course populist Biden and other Demos etc. They think calling themselves "Progressive" excuses them from having to do anything of substance.
 
All we will ever do regarding climate change is nibble around the edges with what can’t even be described as half measures and learn to live with the repercussions. After all, who will suffer the most but those with the weakest voice. Those with the means will select the least affected places to live and do so in comfort.
 
Everyone who really cares about climate change and the need to reduce carbon emissions is agreeing that the current Climate-Change summit in Dubai is a disaster, total failure to produce any needed change.


Why can't any progress be made? What stands in the way?
People
 
Democrats the same as Republicans? (on climate change)

What's the difference?


Not that Democrats never tell the truth about this.

Here are 2 examples where a Democrat told the truth about climate-change, and in both cases they were condemned by Democrats and the Populist mindless masses.

Pete Buttigieg here points out the benefit of higher price at the pump:

“The more pain we are all experiencing from the high price of gas, the more benefit there is for those who can access electric vehicles.”
ijr.com

Commentary: Buttigieg: 'The More Pain' You Feel at the Gas Pump, the Higher the Benefit of an EV

"The more pain we are all experiencing from the high price of gas, the more benefit."

-- Pete Buttigieg, in speech to promote alternative transportation (during record-high heat waves in the U.S. and Europe), and to promote subsidies to electric vehicles


This quote was publicized more by the Right-wing media than the Left or Mainline media. It's actually difficult to find the quote, and might have gone unnoticed if Fox News and Sean Hannity had not picked up on it and used it to bash Demos and blame Biden for high gas prices, which Demos deny, insisting that they want lower gas prices and are doing everything possible, even begging the Saudis (and whining to Venezuela and Iran) to step up production. Demos mostly disagree with Buttigieg and agree with Republicans and climate-change deniers that the priority is to keep gas prices low to preserve America's God-given right to cheap gasoline which is killing millions and will kill millions more in the future, even tens or hundreds of millions in 3rd-World countries in the coming decades. But these hordes of humans who will starve don't matter because America's right to instant gratification today is more important, according to Biden and Democrats generally who agree with Trumpsters and Fox on America's entitlement to cheap gas.

(One could argue that the EV subsidies are not an ideal alternative, because some other alternatives might be better, and EVs require electricity which comes mostly from burning coal, plus also the manufacture of batteries requires heavy fossil fuel consumption. However, the real truth of the Buttigieg quote is the need for any alternatives to gasoline, whatever these might be, and imposing higher cost onto gasoline will give encouragement to whatever are the best alternatives.)


An earlier notable Demo quote on this topic was that of Barrack Obama, in 2008. This is about the need for higher electricity rates (for carbon-produced electric power):


“Under my plan … electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket.”

www.politico.com

Uttered in 2008, still haunting Obama

“Under my plan … electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket," Obama said in 2008.
www.politico.com
(earlier post on this topic: https://iidb.org/threads/new-need-for-gas-tax-increase.26282/ )

In reality Obama did not follow through on this, in his 8 years. But at least he spoke the truth in saying we need higher electricity rates (for energy produced by coal).


in summary: a carbon tax is the best solution

= increase the tax on gasoline (and other fossil fuels) and on electricity produced by fossil fuels. Some Democrats, in a rare case, do acknowledge the truth about this. But why are Democrats generally in denial? Why are they really the same as the mindless Republican populists who cannot recognize the truth? What would it take to get these Democrat populists to pull their head out of the sand?
 
A good 40 to 50% of people living today don't support climate action at all, which includes the politicians they support.

This alone makes real action a non-starter, setting aside a number of other complicating factors.
 
All we will ever do regarding climate change is nibble around the edges with what can’t even be described as half measures and learn to live with the repercussions. After all, who will suffer the most but those with the weakest voice. Those with the means will select the least affected places to live and do so in comfort.
Yes, but also "those with the weakest voices" are the ones who oppose doing what's really necessary. It's the mindless masses, the vast populist herd out there, the bottom 50% or bottom 60% who elect the "leaders," who mostly object to any gas tax increase (or carbon tax increase), and this is precisely the best means to reduce fossil fuel emissions.
 
Contrary to the "thinking" of those infatuated with the Cult of The Free Market, there are many MANY cases where what's good individually for ANY one family is bad for EVERYBODY if everybody behaves in their own self-interest.

Littering is a trivial example. If I litter in a public park the chance is near zero that MY littering will present ME with a future eyesore.

An important example few talk about is that it is irrational to vote in national elections! Even if the cost to vote in gas and inconvenience is as little as $1, if I have only a one-in-a-million chance of affecting the result, the result would need to have a $1 million value to me for that to justify the $1 expense. Would you let Trump be re-elected if you were paid $1 million for it? Most Americans would, understandably, take the million. This is why voting has to be made mandatory. Otherwise elections are decided by those too irrational to know voting is a waste of time!

And, most clearly and pertinent to this thread, economic players (whether individuals or companies) DO and SHOULD DO what is in their economic self-interest. It is not reasonable to expect people to pay a dime for solar power if they can buy carbon power for a nickel.

The proper solution to over-use of carbon fuels is to manipulate the economic incentives, i.e. to impose a big carbon tax. This has been self-evident for decades to ALL economists, left, right and center.

Instead the "thinking" by anti-carbon folk has been to send out Greta Thunberg to shame people into stop burning carbon. :rotfl: This is too silly for words. Suppose Greta is so successful that 1% of the Earth's people stop burning carbon. Reduced demand would then lower the cost of carbon by a penny and ... the other 99% would burn carbon even faster because of the reduced price!

In conclusion, neither free-market capitalism nor popular democracy work in the good way their cultists imagine. Sorry about that. There's no Santa Claus either; and I have serious doubts about the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy.

Here are 2 examples where a Democrat told the truth about climate-change, and in both cases they were condemned by Democrats and the Populist mindless masses.

Pete Buttigieg here points out the benefit of higher price at the pump:

This quote was publicized more by the Right-wing media than the Left or Mainline media. It's actually difficult to find the quote, and might have gone unnoticed if Fox News and Sean Hannity had not picked up on it and used it to bash Demos and blame Biden for high gas prices, which Demos deny, insisting that they want lower gas prices and are doing everything possible, even begging the Saudis (and whining to Venezuela and Iran) to step up production. Demos mostly disagree with Buttigieg and agree with Republicans and climate-change deniers that the priority is to keep gas prices low to preserve America's God-given right to cheap gasoline which is killing millions and will kill millions more in the future ...

The threat to American democracy from the Bullshit Machine of Hatred and Greed is very real. We've put off the carbon tax for decades already, and will need to wait another decade or so, hoping the threat from the Bullshit Machine will be overcome.

(One could argue that the EV subsidies are not an ideal alternative, because some other alternatives might be better, and EVs require electricity which comes mostly from burning coal, plus also the manufacture of batteries requires heavy fossil fuel consumption. However, the real truth of the Buttigieg quote is the need for any alternatives to gasoline, whatever these might be, and imposing higher cost onto gasoline will give encouragement to whatever are the best alternatives.)

What are the actual numbers? On balance, how much carbon do EVs save?
An earlier notable Demo quote on this topic was that of Barrack Obama, in 2008. This is about the need for higher electricity rates (for carbon-produced electric power):

“Under my plan … electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket.”

in summary: a carbon tax is the best solution
 
All we will ever do regarding climate change is nibble around the edges with what can’t even be described as half measures and learn to live with the repercussions. After all, who will suffer the most but those with the weakest voice. Those with the means will select the least affected places to live and do so in comfort.
Yes, but also "those with the weakest voices" are the ones who oppose doing what's really necessary. It's the mindless masses, the vast populist herd out there, the bottom 50% or bottom 60% who elect the "leaders," who mostly object to any gas tax increase (or carbon tax increase), and this is precisely the best means to reduce fossil fuel emissions.
But the "mindless masses" do so out of necessity and/or ignorance. Should we elect politicians to do what we want? To satisfy our needs and wants today and the hell with tomorrow? I'd like to think we put politicians in place to do the right thing. To explain to the rest of us why X is necessary.
Nevermind the price of gas. Curtail advertising and easy consumer credit. Attack the wasteful consumerism by whatever means necessary and the demand for gasoline will drop. Tax what harms the environment and incentivize what is good. Our capitalist system has run amok promoting the endless pursuit of more and more shit. Attack this. It'll do a hell of a lot more than trying to convince people to junk their ICEVs for EVs.
 
My thinking is that there are a few factors at play:

1) A great deal of people out there don't understand the problem, and don't support any serious changes to their lifestyle. In a very best case scenario democracies have a good faith government in play that is able to make modest changes without making too many people angry. Worst case scenario their actions are too heavy handed, and we get a government that does nothing.

2) Global infrastructure is too reliant on fossil fuels, and there's no quick or easy way out of it.

3) Organizational dynamics. The fossil fuel industry is literally incapable of deconstructing itself, the only way to phase it out is to end the world's reliance on fossil fuels.

Point one is particularly important, and is the elephant in the room that politicians aren't able to say publicly. From a distance all we witness is a bunch of inaction that looks malevolent, but the reality is that any politician who actually wants to make a difference has their hands tied.

I hate to be the pessimist, but IMO what we're witnessing in real time is the limit of human organization. We're great at building technology and civilization, but we're very bad at long-termism.
 
The liberals believe in supporting a transition to move from reliance on fossil fuels. The conservatives have fought that transition every step of the way since Reagan took solar panels off the White House. The best thing for the environment and atmosphere was the oil embargo as that forced America to embrace more fuel efficient cars. But even with that, the Republicans fought even the hamhocked CAFE standards every step of the way.

So no, this isn't a both sides thing. The Democrats in DC realized that a switch flip change to alternative power wasn't feasible for a first world economy, and they aimed at transitioning. A rather pragmatic approach. Meanwhile, the right-wing wanted to save a few bucks, and now those savings are coming at the expense of insurance companies who are making more and more payouts for flood related insurance and other severe weather events.

The biggest problem is the nuclear, as it is the only real way forward. Not burning coal helps a lot, but natural gas isn't a perfect solution. We have to stop adding CO2 to the atmosphere today, not 30 years from now. But no one wants nuclear in America, at least, not in their backyard. So the transition to electric cars isn't going to help all too much as we trade a good of emissions for a bit less.
 
My thinking is that there are a few factors at play:

1) A great deal of people out there don't understand the problem, and don't support any serious changes to their lifestyle. {snip}

Al Gore, John Kerry, Greta "Scoldilocks" Thunberg, Gavin Newsom and Teh Gruaniad do understand "the problem"? "The problem" is that the aforementioned have been prattling on about the coming climate apocalypse for decades now and it has yet to manifest. So most people realize that "the problem" is male bovine excrement.

2) Global infrastructure is too reliant on fossil fuels, and there's no quick or easy way out of it.

And as the president of Cop 28 Al Jaber said, there is no science out there that doing away with "fossil fuels" would achieve the arbitrary 1.5c temperature increase maximum etc. So it is completely unnecessary (and totally unrealistic) to get out of "fossil fuels" by arbitrary deadlines.


It really is a religion.


It's a catastrophic 62f in Santa Monica today.
 
we are fucked.
I don't know if we are "fucked", we certainly are on the path of something unknown regarding the impacts of additional warming that is baked into the system at this point. The solution was to develop solutions back in the 80s and onward to address the need for energy to live in global first world. We had Nuclear power, but some bad timing, and then the GOP which just said we want to save money now to spend a fuck ton more later. The GOP was wrong... again... and now we await to see the consequences. It likely won't be extinction (a completed fucked outcome), but should that be the bar like some want to suggest? If the planet warms 3 or 4 degrees, people in 50 to 100 years have to deal with it. It'd take a good long time for that to undo itself... if it can.
 
Everyone who really cares about climate change and the need to reduce carbon emissions is agreeing that the current Climate-Change summit in Dubai is a disaster, total failure to produce any needed change.


Why can't any progress be made? What stands in the way?
People
And, people don't like change, especially when it comes to their lifestyles. So, your answer is the correct one. It's just about all of us who are the problem. Even those of us who support changes aren't doing enough, to promote or initiate change. To quote a memorable line from the movie "Ferris Bueller" " I weep for the Future".

One time, my somewhat conservative, highly educated, Bro in law told us, that he refuses to believe that climate change is real because he has grandchildren. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
 
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