Another Day In The USA

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

https://news.google.com/articles/CA...ocv1CjCSptoCMIrUpgU?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

The Dayton shooting is looking less and less ideological.

 

[Derec]

Has the Democratic Party swung violently to the left or is that the way that you view it from where you are sitting on the extreme right? I think that it is the latter.

No, it's definitely the former. Now Democratic hopefuls are even attacking Obama for deporting illegals. That's how far they have swung to the far left.
And Bill Clinton? Fuhgeddaboudit!

Most of the examples that you gave of the Democrats moving to the left are talking points straight out of whichever right-wing disinformation site you prefer currently.

Bullshit.

The Democrats don't support open borders

They don't admit it, but they are for all practical purposes. They want to decriminalize illegal border crossings and they do not want to deport illegals. They want to give illegals more and more benefits such as healthcare which will incentivize even more illegals to come. They do not want to admit that the "asylum seeking" of millions Central Americans is just a ploy to get into the country fraudulently.

follow the money, who profits from the illegal immigrant workforce?

Republicans have been bad too, no question. Jeb Bush infamously called illegal immigration "an act of love". That's why Trump had such an easy time making mincemeat out of the rest of the field.

But Democrats are doing it for the voters. They want to replace US population with one more likely to vote for them.

The number of illegals working in the US started to jump after the Reagan amnesty bill of 1986. Do you know why? Was it because so many illegals wanted to be in on the next amnesty bill? Or was it because the Republicans wrote a huge loophole into the 1986 bill making it much easier for companies to hire illegals without any fear of being prosecuted for it?

Reagan made mistakes, sure. But we are talking about today, the policies that Dems support the ones they oppose, like deporting illegals.

Medicare for all is being proposed to lower the costs and to expand the people who have access to health care.

Whatever its merits and demerits might be, it's a left wing policy.

Sanctuary cities exist because it is a very bad idea to use the local police to enforce immigration misdemeanor laws because the local police need the cooperation of all of its citizens to solve serious local crimes, even the illegals. If the local police help ICE and the border police any chance of this cooperation will evaporate. The border police are now the largest police force in the US. It is hard to see why they have to have the local police to help them with their job.

Because of people like Kate Steinle. Her murderer is an illegal felon and SF still refused to honor an ICE detainer and let him go.
The only thing sanctuary city policies do is protect illegals. They need to go!

The Democrats have always opposed illegal immigration

Laughable! Have you watched the recent Democratic debates?

as you admit with the two examples of Clinton and Obama.

As I have said, they have swung far left.

Why? Because the Democratic Party was much further to the left then and dependent on the support of the labor unions then, the labor unions that the Republicans all but wiped out in private industry. And why did the Republicans wipe out the labor unions in private industry? Answer it yourself, remember, follow the money.

I agree it's a back and forth. Right now, the swing is to the left. And pretty hard too.

The 15 dollars an hour minimum wage is also reasonable. It is about what the minimum wage would have been if the minimum wage had been indexed to inflation.

Wrong. Minimum wage was set to $7.25 in 2009. That corresponds to inflation adjusted $8.66 today, according to this inflation calculator.

Yes, Hillary was grandstanding by inviting people whose relatives had been shot by the police. I don't know if you have noticed but the Republican Party has elected a president whose only thing is grandstanding, he has nothing else.

He is grandstanding about protecting our borders. She was grandstanding about protecting thugs who rob stores and attack police officers from those police officers.

She became a millionaire because she raised a thug who attacked a police officer and in turn got pumped full of daylight.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

After today there is no longer any room for nuance. The President is a white nationalist terror leader. His supporters - ALL OF THEM - are by definition white nationalist terror supporters. The MAGA hat is a KKK hood. And this evil, racist scourge must be eradicated from society.

Nothing extreme about that. Completely mild, moderate, peaceful, etc.

 

[Derec]

President Trump is wrong. Video Games don't cause violent crime.

Yes, that's just stupid. It's similar to the idiocy of radfems who claim that porn and sex workers cause rape.

View attachment 23004

Yes, murder rate is higher in the US, but not because of mass shootings, but because of regular gun crime, much of it gang-related, and mostly by blacks. Since most homicides are intraracial (and among interracial homicides black-on-white homicides are twice as numerous than the reverse) that means that most victims of US homicides are black as well.

Black Americans Are Killed At 12 Times The Rate Of People In Other Developed Countries

 

[PyramidHead]

After today there is no longer any room for nuance. The President is a white nationalist terror leader. His supporters - ALL OF THEM - are by definition white nationalist terror supporters. The MAGA hat is a KKK hood. And this evil, racist scourge must be eradicated from society.

Nothing extreme about that. Completely mild, moderate, peaceful, etc.

Where's the lie though

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They are in favor of deportations, not mass murder. It's perfectly fine for other countries to want to keep out immigrants, but for some reason, the leftists say it's racist when the U.S. just tries to do what every other country does.

Hitler started out with driving out the Jews, also.

The parallels between His Flatulence and Hitler are considerable.

You're way off base Loren! Were the Jews non citizens of Germany breaking the law attempting illegal border crossings into Hilter's fatherland? Or has Trump made any statements to the effect he would even prefer legal citizens of a different race (such as his own wife) to move out of the country? I think not. Thus far, Trump has only been following current laws that have been on the books for decades.

The only fair parallels I can see is a lot of false hysteria driven by statements like yours and the drive-by media. And there was a lot of this same kind of false hysteria during Germany as well.

Separating families and stuffing them into very tight confines where none of them can be looked after property isn't immoral (we don't need to be gassing them in order to be dehumanizing them!). Saying that it is within the letter of the law is taking a moral-less position and hiding behind legal code.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I don't think that the above statistics from Derec have much to do with the thread, but more an obsession with race. In any case, I will note 3 things about the statistics:
(1) it is an apples to oranges comparison because no one tried to break down other countries by race or other factors.
(2) it is well known that there are murders in Israel and that there are factors involved, i.e. looking at Israel (or other countries) you would see a multi-modal distribution based on factors: urban area/overpopulation, access to guns, poverty, etc.
(3) it is well known that there are compelling correlations of murder rates to other factors that work across countries and inside countries.

So, for example, here's reference to a study on income inequality:

Income inequality can cause all kinds of problems across the economic spectrum—but perhaps the most frightening is homicide. Inequality—the gap between a society's richest and poorest—predicts murder rates better than any other variable, according to Martin Daly, a professor emeritus of psychology at McMaster University in Ontario, who has studied this connection for decades. It is more tightly tied to murder than straightforward poverty, for example, or drug abuse. And research conducted for the World Bank finds that both between and within countries, about half the variance in murder rates can be accounted for by looking at the most common measure of inequality, which is known as the Gini coefficient.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/income-inequalitys-most-disturbing-side-effect-homicide/

Previous studies have identified but failed to explain satisfactorily the positive relationship between income inequality and homicide rates. This paper proposes an explanation based on the concept of relative deprivation, but also reviews the criminological literature in a search for other theoretically relevant variables. After assessing problems of sampling and measurement, and using a considerably larger sample than used in previous studies, multiple regression analyses reveal positive net effects of both inequality and population growth (reflecting a higher proportion of young people) on homicide rates. Further analyses show that the effects of inequality on homicide are more pronounced in more democratic nations, a finding supporting the relative deprivation explanation. Income inequality also has stronger effects in more densely populated countries, in wealthier nations, and in countries with larger internal security forces.

INCOME INEQUALITY AND HOMICIDE RATES: CROSS‐NATIONAL DATA AND CRIMINOLOGICAL THEORIES
HARVEY KRAHN TIMOTHY F. HARTNAGEL JOHN W. GARTRELL
First published: May 1986

OBJECTIVE: To test whether relations between economic development, economic inequality, and child and youth homicide rates are sex- and age-specific, and whether a country's wealth modifies the impact of economic inequality on homicide rates.
METHODS: Outcome variables were homicide rates around 1994 in males and females in the age ranges 0-–4, 5-–9, 10-–14, 15-–19 and 20-–24 years from 61 countries. Predictor variables were per capita gross domestic product (GDP), GINI coefficient, percentage change in per capita gross national product (GNP) and female economic activity as a percentage of male economic activity. Relations were analysed by ordinary least squares regression.
FINDINGS: All predictors explained significant variances in homicide rates in those aged 15-–24. Associations were stronger for males than females and weak for children aged 0-–9. Models that included female economic inequality and percentage change in GNP increased the effect in children aged 0-–9 and the explained variance in females aged 20-–24. For children aged 0-–4, country clustering by income increased the explained variance for both sexes. For males aged 15–-24, the association with economic inequality was strong in countries with low incomes and weak in those with high incomes.
CONCLUSION: Relations between economic factors and child and youth homicide rates varied with age and sex. Interventions to target economic factors would have the strongest impact on rates of homicide in young adults and late adolescent males. In societies with high economic inequality, redistributing wealth without increasing per capita GDP would reduce homicide rates less than redistributions linked with overall economic development.

Sex- and age- specific relations between economic development, economic inequality and homicide rates in people aged 0–-24 years: a cross-sectional analysis
Alexander Butchart & Karin Engström

BUT I am not sure what any of this has to do with the thread...

The first shooter, i.e. El Paso, was driven by ideology. I would not doubt it if he was also mentally ill. The second shooter, i.e. Dayton shooting, seems to have been driven by something personal, even if he was an ideological extremist. He was definitely mentally ill. I would not doubt it if every mass murderer were insane.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

After today there is no longer any room for nuance. The President is a white nationalist terror leader. His supporters - ALL OF THEM - are by definition white nationalist terror supporters. The MAGA hat is a KKK hood. And this evil, racist scourge must be eradicated from society.

Nothing extreme about that. Completely mild, moderate, peaceful, etc.

Where's the lie though

Nothing extreme about that either. Completely mild, moderate, peaceful, etc.

 

[ZiprHead]

Tucker Carlson calls white supremacy "a hoax" after El Paso shooting

Fox News host Tucker Carlson claimed on his show "'Tucker Carlson Tonight" Tuesday that white supremacy is a "hoax" and "actually not a real problem in America."

Why it matters: A racist manifesto complaining about a "Hispanic invasion" was posted online by a writer identified as the suspected gunman before the El Paso mass shooting Saturday. Per Axios' Jim VandeHei and Sara Fischer, white-extremist active shooters in the U.S. were responsible for 65 deaths in 7 episodes in the past 18 months.

 

[PyramidHead]

Where's the lie though

Nothing extreme about that either. Completely mild, moderate, peaceful, etc.

Just a question, is it ever appropriate to identify something very bad that needs to be fixed, or is that always too extreme? What, in your opinion, should be the threshold beyond which a "mild, moderate, peaceful" response to events is no longer warranted? Is there such a threshold?

 

[Worldtraveller]

He had an infatuation with killing people since his high school days. Do you think he knew anything about Elizabeth Warren back then?

The Cherokee princess has been around national politics for a while. So why not?
And if the Left can blame Trump for El Paso (like she personally did!), why not blame Warren for Dayton? Sauce for the goose and all that.

Sure, it can be viewed as the same. You just need to be a complete idiot in order to view it that way. Since you're not a complete idiot [Citation Needed], you know that you do not.

FIXT.

 

[ZiprHead]

Where's the lie though

Nothing extreme about that either. Completely mild, moderate, peaceful, etc.

Explaining the Trump Vote: The Effect of
Racist Resentment and Anti-Immigrant
Sentiments

The most important finding of the analysis, however, is that
racism—regardless of how it was measured—appears to have
been an important motive in voting for Trump. As such, this is
not a new finding because we know that, indeed, in 2008 Barack
Obama suffered from a lack of support among racist voters (LewisBeck, Tien, and Nadeau 2010). The 2016 campaign, however,
demonstrated that the effect of racism is not only present when
voters have a choice among candidates with different ethnic
backgrounds. The ideological positions and the rhetoric of the
candidate clearly matter as well. In this specific election, negative attitudes toward ethnic minorities and immigrants swayed
independents and some Democrats to opt for candidate Trump,
thereby considerably strengthening his electoral-support base.

 

[Worldtraveller]

More instances - every single god damn antifa brawl. Even when their intended targets don't even show up.

Not as good at it - the attack on the ICE center and the shooter at the Republican baseball practice are some examples.

Yeah, we are quite aware that liberals and leftists are capable of performing criminal acts of violence. You were the one that both assigned magnitudes of harm and frequency to them relative to those on the right-wing. You were asked to back that​ up.

Also, I haven't seen anyone on the left try to justify or ignore those attacks by pointing out right wing attacks. Whereas that's about all the rightwingers (especially here on TFT apparently) do.

 

[Jarhyn]

Sure, it can be viewed as the same. You just need to be a complete idiot in order to view it that way. Since you're not a complete idiot [Citation Needed], you know that you do not.

FIXT.

Yeah, mocks of Warren hold no water.

She accepted a claim in good faith from her family, and operated on that good-faith claim from her family until people called the claim into question, then she tested the claim on the basis of that doubt. Then, unlike certain orange turds she posted the results for herself and all the world to see.

The whole situation is a stunning testament to her character, transparency, and honesty. I respect her now in a way I would not have before.

 

[Worldtraveller]

The El Paso shooter was perfectly rational and sane. He drove 600 miles to kill Latin American people and didn't post about it until 20 minutes beforehand, knowing that any sooner might get the authorities on his tail. It was premeditated and goal-oriented in a way that doesn't point to anything except ideological commitment to white nationalism, and making noises about mental health (especially while continuing to support the for-profit system that denies it to so many) is a distraction from reality.

Using concepts and phrases directly lifted from presidential speeches, broadcasters on cable news, and millionaire YouTube personalities, this person clearly and succinctly laid out exactly why he did what he did. That means anybody who agrees with those voices can do the same thing, at any time, as long as they have the means. That's fascism arriving in America.

^^^ THIS! All of it!

Guns are all about profits. The NRA isn't an organization dedicated to preserving the rights of its members to own guns. Its only goal is to preserve the rights of the gun manufacturers to sell as many guns as possible. The more the NRA can convince their members that it is an out of control scary work filled with evil people who want to harm you or even worse who want to take your guns away from you the more guns they will buy.

This is even more noticeable when you note the NRA's reaction to the (almost immediately passed) laws about people using 3-D printed guns to make their own. If they really cared about citizens being able to own firearms, they would have been cheering this development. Instead, they stood by silently while laws were quickly passed to prevent citizens from making their own easily accessible firearms. Gotta protect the profits, not the rights.

 

[Jarhyn]

President Trump is wrong. Video Games don't cause violent crime.

Yes, that's just stupid. It's similar to the idiocy of radfems who claim that porn and sex workers cause rape.

View attachment 23004

View attachment 23012
Yes, murder rate is higher in the US, but not because of mass shootings, but because of regular gun crime, much of it gang-related, and mostly by blacks. Since most homicides are intraracial (and among interracial homicides black-on-white homicides are twice as numerous than the reverse) that means that most victims of US homicides are black as well.

Black Americans Are Killed At 12 Times The Rate Of People In Other Developed Countries

And he still can't see the forest for the trees. The kind of crime referenced here is a function of poverty and economic exclusion. When the greatest levels of power, control, and wealth in a community are only available through participating in black market activities, that becomes the goal of at least some members of that community. And because real police are unavailable for resolving disputes in those contexts, the disputes are resolved through direct violence.

It is directly a result of poverty and economic exlusion due to racism, and ironically, here someone is using it as an excuse to continue the racism!

 

[ZiprHead]

Congressman Claims Charging El Paso Domestic Terrorist With a Hate Crime Will Lead to Putting Preachers in Prison

U.S. Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) told two (really bad) local television news reporters he opposes charging the man suspected of slaughtering 22 people at an El Paso, Texas Walmart with a federal hate crime because that will lead to locking up preachers in prison.

(Fact check: false.)

Rep. Gohmert, who brought America the racist term “terror babies,” has occasionally been called the “stupidest” Congressman, and his Monday interview with KETK did nothing to dispel the rumor.

“There is no death penalty under federal law,” Rep. Gohmert said, as Mediaite reports. That, too, is not only false (here’s the DOJ’s page on the death penalty), the DOJ just a week ago announced it is executing five death row inmates starting in December. “All of this screaming and yelling, ‘we need to punish him for hate crimes,’ you know, that’s just going to be something used to lock up preachers someday.”

 

[Jarhyn]

Congressman Claims Charging El Paso Domestic Terrorist With a Hate Crime Will Lead to Putting Preachers in Prison

U.S. Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) told two (really bad) local television news reporters he opposes charging the man suspected of slaughtering 22 people at an El Paso, Texas Walmart with a federal hate crime because that will lead to locking up preachers in prison.

(Fact check: false.)

Rep. Gohmert, who brought America the racist term “terror babies,” has occasionally been called the “stupidest” Congressman, and his Monday interview with KETK did nothing to dispel the rumor.

“There is no death penalty under federal law,” Rep. Gohmert said, as Mediaite reports. That, too, is not only false (here’s the DOJ’s page on the death penalty), the DOJ just a week ago announced it is executing five death row inmates starting in December. “All of this screaming and yelling, ‘we need to punish him for hate crimes,’ you know, that’s just going to be something used to lock up preachers someday.”

I wonder... If an Islamic Imam were to one day say to his congregation something about killing infidels/apostates, whether he would endorse locking that Imam up...

 

[SimpleDon]

I subscribe to the Washington Post. Jennifer Rubin is the token conservative columnist on the Post. Over the last two days, she has made it clear that she is over Trump.

August 4- There is no excuse for supporting this President

The alleged killer had regurgitated white nationalist bile and hatred of immigrants. If a Muslim preacher’s words were repeated nearly verbatim by Islamic mass murderers, we’d consider him a threat to national security. And yet, when venom drawn from President Trump’s vicious attacks on immigrants, his channeling of “replacement” conspiracy theories, his dehumanization of immigrants and his demonization of the media show up in the ramblings of serial mail bomber Cesar Sayoc, the Tree of Life synagogue and Christchurch mosque mass murderers and now the slaughterer of innocents in El Paso, we don’t collectively hold him morally accountable, insist his recant his views and demand an end to his presidency.

For decades now, Republicans have insisted mass murders with semiautomatic weapons are not reflective of a gun problem. I can no longer comprehend how such a ludicrous assertion is remotely acceptable. But in one sense they are right: It’s not merely Republicans’ indulgence of the National Rifle Association that puts Americans’ lives in jeopardy; it is the support and enabling of a president that inspires white nationalist terrorists — and even denies white nationalism is a problem.

August 5- John Cornyn is choosing Trump over Texas

The Texas Tribune reports on state Republicans’ willingness — or lack thereof — to explain the connection between the slaughter of 22 people in El Paso and the white nationalism spouted by the suspected murderer. Texas Land Commissioner George P. Bush, whose father Jeb was governor of Florida and whose mother is a Mexican immigrant, got the ball rolling. He said the response “should include standing firm against white terrorism here in the US.” Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) also chimed in. “'As the son of a Cuban immigrant, I am deeply horrified by the hateful anti-Hispanic bigotry expressed in the shooter’s so-called ‘manifesto,’ Cruz said, labeling the shooting a ‘heinous act of terrorism and white supremacy.’"

... “By bluntly acknowledging race’s apparent role in the shooting, the statements by Cruz and Bush were different from initial comments by other statewide elected officials including the state’s senior U.S. senator, John Cornyn, as well as Gov. Greg Abbott and Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick. Abbott emphasized mental health in the immediate aftermath of the shooting Saturday evening, while Patrick decried cultural factors — such as violent video games — in a Fox News interview Sunday morning. He did say the shooting was ‘obviously a hate crime, I think, in my view, against immigrants.’” Even more bizarrely, Cornyn seems helpless as to how to respond. "Sadly, there are some issues, like homelessness and these shootings, where we simply don’t have all the answers,” he wrote on Twitter. On virtually no issue do we have all the answers, but that does not prevent us from taking obvious steps to address serious problems.

August 5- Trump’s speech would be laughable if it weren’t so infuriating

(I will let you read the article)​

August 5- The media must do better

 

[ZiprHead]

Trump Cited As A Motivating Factor In 81 Murders And 6 Terrorist Plots

Donald Trump has been directly cited as a motivating factor for violence in at least 6 terrorist plots and 81 murders.

Lest anyone get too comfortable believing that words don’t matter and Donald Trump’s nativist rhetoric is merely a political “nothing burger,” it is worth noting that the President of the United States has been directly cited as motivation for violent acts in at least six terrorist plots and 81 murders.

Not all of these incidents were successful, but the intent to harm was real for each and every one.