Another officer not indicted

[AthenaAwakened]

So, the police officer used a technique that has been explicitly banned specifically because it can cause death and you would claim that the police officer holds no culpability?

If a choke-hold kills you you're not going to say "I can't breathe" because you're not going to be able to say anything.

Wrong again

 

[Loren Pechtel]

or maybe it's not

Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting (2003 Rev.)

Homicide—‘‘occurs when death results from...’’ an injury or poisoning or from ‘‘...a volitional act committed by another person to cause fear, harm, or death. Intent to cause death is a common element but is not required for classification as homicide.’’

I do not think scaring someone to death (also possible with someone with a bum ticker) would fall under the colloquial definition of "homicide". And neither would a normally non-lethal action that results in a fatal heart attack of a significantly ill individual.

Can we all agree that Garner should not have resisted arrest?

Scaring someone to death can get you a felony murder charge.

 

[bleubird]

So, the police officer used a technique that has been explicitly banned specifically because it can cause death and you would claim that the police officer holds no culpability?

If a choke-hold kills you you're not going to say "I can't breathe" because you're not going to be able to say anything.

Is this idea your idea of humor?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I'm guessing the hardest part to demonstrate would be that the act was the cause of the death. He didn't die from asphyxiation (which would far more clearly indicate that the choke-hold caused the death), but rather complications from a heart attack endured. Had the choke-hold not been conducted, would the man be alive today? He very well could be. However, it's not 100% clear. His poor health, the stress of the situation, and the compressed chest caused by the other officers could still have triggered the heart attack. Even had he been indicted, there is just about no chance he could've been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. His defense attorney would've hammered endlessly on this point. I'm uncertain whether he should've been indicted or not, it's a close call. But it seems like it would've served very little purpose seeing as to the near certainty he wouldn't have been convicted.

Exactly. How do we know it was the choke-hold as opposed to the overall stress?

a coroner's report.

And the latter is certainly legal. I see plenty of reasonable doubt, thus no conviction.

indictments don't rest on reasonable doubt, but probable cause. How many times do you have to be told?

 

[Terrell]

I agree

As do I

Agree, as well. I'd add that any case involving possible illegal behavior by an LEO go to a preliminary hearing before a judge. This hearing should be public and recorded in HD, from start to finish. On these matters, we need some very strong sunshine laws.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

How is this not felony murder? If it's illegal for police to do a chokehold and this guy died as a result of the officer committing an illegal act, that seems to meet the criteria. The fact that he had zero intention to kill the guy shouldn't be relevant to the case.

 

[laughing dog]

He died accidentally (because of his health problems) while resisting a legal arrest

The chokehold was not an accident, so your response is based on fiction not fact.

 

[Derec]

How is this not felony murder? If it's illegal for police to do a chokehold and this guy died as a result of the officer committing an illegal act, that seems to meet the criteria. The fact that he had zero intention to kill the guy shouldn't be relevant to the case.

Felony murder requires a felony, not merely violating department policy.

- - - Updated - - -

The chokehold was not an accident, so your response is based on fiction not fact.

The death was an accident, caused to a large degree by the deceased's health problems.

 

[Derec]

Is this idea your idea of humor?

Speaking requires movement of air through the larynx. So no humor. Try saying something while being choked.

- - - Updated - - -

Scaring someone to death can get you a felony murder charge.

But then again, pretty much anything can. Those are among the crazier laws in the US.

 

[Derec]

Can we all agree that the police didn't give the situation enough time?

How long should police allow for a subject resisting arrest?

Can we all agree that disrupting Christmas tree lighting is not going to help anyone?

 

[Sabine Grant]

Garner was a criminal. It is obvious from the video that he resisted arrest. He was much bigger than the cops who tried to subdue him.
And the reason he died were his underlying health problems, not the way he was subdued. It's not like he was choked to death, it's that he had a cardiac arrest while struggling with the police while having asthma and a heart condition.

You are wrong. Considering how many times the cause of death has been confirmed : compression of both trachea and chest. His death was caused by an actual choke-hold which placed constant pressure on his trachea and weight pressure on his thorax as he was brought down to the ground on his chest and MAINTAINED forcefully in that position. To be noted that even as he was maintained on the ground, his thorax in full contact with the ground and full weight (his own as well as police officers pushing down on him, increasing the pressure on his torso), Officer Panteleo was still choke holding him.Inevitably, respiration was interrupted due to the compression of the trachea and aggravated by the weight pressure on his thorax or compressive asphyxia.

As the result of his prolonged asphyxia, generalized hypoxia affecting all of his organs. Generalized meaning that a vital organ such as the heart will be affected. He went in cardiac arrest.

 

[Derec]

Garner was a criminal. It is obvious from the video that he resisted arrest. He was much bigger than the cops who tried to subdue him.
And the reason he died were his underlying health problems, not the way he was subdued. It's not like he was choked to death, it's that he had a cardiac arrest while struggling with the police while having asthma and a heart condition.

You are wrong. Considering how many times the cause of death has been confirmed : compression of both trachea and chest. His death was caused by an actual choke-hold which placed constant pressure on his trachea and weight pressure on his thorax as he was brought down to the ground on his chest and MAINTAINED forcefully in that position. To be noted that even as he was maintained on the ground, his thorax in full contact with the ground and full weight (his own as well as police officers pushing down on him, increasing the pressure on his torso), Officer Panteleo was still choke holding him.Inevitably, respiration was interrupted due to the compression of the trachea and aggravated by the weight pressure on his thorax or compressive asphyxia.

As the result of his prolonged asphyxia, generalized hypoxia affecting all of his organs. Generalized meaning that a vital organ such as the heart will be affected. He went in cardiac arrest.

Do you have a link confirming these claims?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If a choke-hold kills you you're not going to say "I can't breathe" because you're not going to be able to say anything.

Is this idea your idea of humor?

The point is that if he was capable of saying that he was not choked to the point of serious injury. His statement is not evidence of wrongdoing, if anything it's evidence that there wasn't wrongdoing.

This guy died of a stress-induced heart attack. At most the officer's actions were a cause of stress.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How is this not felony murder? If it's illegal for police to do a chokehold and this guy died as a result of the officer committing an illegal act, that seems to meet the criteria. The fact that he had zero intention to kill the guy shouldn't be relevant to the case.

1) Felony murder only applies to deaths from a felony, not merely any illegal action.

2) Choke holds are not illegal. They're just against department policy.

3) The illegal action has to be the trigger for the death.


In this case the cause of death was a stress-induced heart attack. Was the hold the cause of that stress? Or the scuffle in general? To get a felony murder conviction you need to show beyond a reasonable doubt that it was the hold that caused the heart attack. Since that's an impossible burden...

 

[Sabine Grant]

So, the police officer used a technique that has been explicitly banned specifically because it can cause death and you would claim that the police officer holds no culpability?

If a choke-hold kills you you're not going to say "I can't breathe" because you're not going to be able to say anything.

I am not sure how compressive asphyxia (the pressure on his thorax in full contact and weight on the ground while other officers were pushing down on his torso ) is supposed to affect his larynx. Once the choke hold (appears to have been an air choke rather than blood choke) is released, there is no interference with speech. You seem to forget (and so did Derec) that there were 2 specific factors involved in the cause of death : compression of the trachea followed by compressive asphyxia. Both inevitably inducing hypoxia. Even after the air choke hold was released, by then he was already experiencing compression of his thorax which is indeed consistent with being unable to breathe.

 

[laughing dog]

The death was an accident, caused to a large degree by the deceased's health problems.

His unintentional death was caused by the chokehold - no chokehold no problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Scaring someone to death can get you a felony murder charge.

But then again, pretty much anything can. Those are among the crazier laws in the US.

The problem I have with felony murder is when people get charged in cases where they're too far from the death. Multiple criminals are working together, they finish their crime and one goes on to do something that gets someone killed. A case I vaguely recall: A & B do a B&E to recover A's property. The cops show up, A surrenders peacefully. B runs for it, someone dies in the pursuit. I have a problem with charging A with felony murder.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Garner was a criminal. It is obvious from the video that he resisted arrest. He was much bigger than the cops who tried to subdue him.
And the reason he died were his underlying health problems, not the way he was subdued. It's not like he was choked to death, it's that he had a cardiac arrest while struggling with the police while having asthma and a heart condition.

You are wrong. Considering how many times the cause of death has been confirmed : compression of both trachea and chest. His death was caused by an actual choke-hold which placed constant pressure on his trachea and weight pressure on his thorax as he was brought down to the ground on his chest and MAINTAINED forcefully in that position. To be noted that even as he was maintained on the ground, his thorax in full contact with the ground and full weight (his own as well as police officers pushing down on him, increasing the pressure on his torso), Officer Panteleo was still choke holding him.Inevitably, respiration was interrupted due to the compression of the trachea and aggravated by the weight pressure on his thorax or compressive asphyxia.

As the result of his prolonged asphyxia, generalized hypoxia affecting all of his organs. Generalized meaning that a vital organ such as the heart will be affected. He went in cardiac arrest.

Oxygen deprivation to the point of a heart attack but with no brain effects???

And you're making a case for the cause of death being the cops piled on him, not the hold.

 

[Wizardry]

Speaking requires movement of air through the larynx. So no humor. Try saying something while being choked.

To choke someone to death it is not necessary to prevent all air from entering the lungs, it is sufficient that not enough air enter the lungs. In fact, preventing enough air from getting into the lungs is pretty much the only mechanism through which holding someone's neck like that helps you subdue them. If he was getting enough air, he wouldn't have been on the ground.

Plus, he died. He said, "I can't breathe", and then he died because he couldn't breathe. I can't think of a more decisive way of winning an argument.

 

[Sabine Grant]

How is this not felony murder? If it's illegal for police to do a chokehold and this guy died as a result of the officer committing an illegal act, that seems to meet the criteria. The fact that he had zero intention to kill the guy shouldn't be relevant to the case.

1) Felony murder only applies to deaths from a felony, not merely any illegal action.

2) Choke holds are not illegal. They're just against department policy.

3) The illegal action has to be the trigger for the death.


In this case the cause of death was a stress-induced heart attack.

Non, Loren it was not. Stop trotting such gross misinformation.

The proper expansion of his thorax was prevented as his torso was in direct contact with the ground with full weight being pushed down and quite forcefully by several officers. It caused what is commonly known as compressive asphyxia. "I cannot breathe" is fully consistent with compressive asphyxia. He was held down with heavy pressure on his torso long enough to lose consciousness and of course generalized hypoxia followed.