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Anti-CRT Hysteria

It is still happening today! Blacks couldn't drink the water in Flint, can't drink the water in Jackson. Inner cities were abandoned in a self-perpetuating cycle. Just how much intentional neglect do blacks need to suffer from before you say... oh... yeah... I guess there is that.
Flint and Jackson both appear to be directed at blue areas rather than black areas. Standard GOP procedure is to starve the blue areas.

And, yes, there are big problems with the inner cities. Got a magic wand to fix them? Because we don't exactly have good solutions beyond taking the drug war out and shooting it.
 
Systematic racism in not just about outrageous police murders of black American men. It is about much, much more. See OP quote #2 from Lee Atwater. Do you really think today's disenfranchment of black American voters nationwide is not systematic racism?

Such tests need to make sure the test subjects present as equally worthy. It's not just the numbers, it's the impression they give. There are plenty of examples in the news of wealthy people not getting shown things etc because they don't appear to be able to afford it. It's something very hard to enumerate but it's going to make a serious difference.

Consider my experience at trade shows: In the old days showing up in what didn't look like business attire would get you ignored. These days (and that goes back quite a while by now) showing up in jeans immediately gets me identified as an IT guy, not a manager. I get a very different reception than the guys in business attire but not ignored (although the guy in business attire will always be addressed first--I'm almost certainly only one sale, the manager might be many sales.) (And it also gets a quite different response--they know I want and will understand technical answers. I've been to machinery shows--and they always immediately understand that I don't care about what the machine can do, I care about how to talk to the machine.)
 
:consternation2: What on earth makes you think I seem to not understand this? I understand it perfectly. It's the rest of you who seem not to understand this! Legislators perceive a camel peeking its nose under the state tent: a state employee abusing his state-provided authority over a state-supplied captive audience to preach his own personal religious view, say, that color-blind policies are racist, so the legislators are taking a sledgehammer to it. They are doing exactly what you advocate! And how do you react? You say "you don't use a battleship to go bird hunting."!?! Why???

You say "Take a sledgehammer to any camel's nose that peeks under the state tent." -- and that's a consistent position you for some reason think I need a lecture about even though it's exactly what I've been arguing for -- but what you apparently really mean is "Take a sledgehammer to that camel's nose that peeks under the state tent, but don't lift a finger to stop this camel's nose that peeks under the state tent until the entire camel is inside the state tent en masse being a systemic state tent camel."
No. We see the legislature claiming the camel's nose is in the tent when in reality there's no camel about. It's a false flag--this is actually about removing any depiction of reality that doesn't match their ideal.
 
ITT: people not realizing that when the sum vector of leveraged racism is identified, the balance far and away yields the majority of it is leverage against minorities.

It's like saying "every particle is contributing to the gravitational center so we shouldn't bother where the gravitational center is, nor where, nor why."

The center of mass within the system bends the structure of the system away from offering opportunity to minorities to advance themselves.
Everyone has obstacles. Some have more than others. We should be focusing on teaching people to overcome obstacles. Obstacle removal is only warranted when they actually block the way, not merely hinder it a bit.
 
The point is that you can't make "things work now" without figuring out the past.

We can't just point to the passage of the Civil Rights Act over 50 years ago or the election of Obama 14 years ago and say "this whole institutional racism problem is solved!!!"

The problem has not gone away.

Your position seems to be that if you are black (or Hispanic, or Asian, or Jewish, or any other racial or ethnic minority), there are no barriers to your success and no level of lingering institutional racism at work in your life. Bootstraps and what not. What's more, teaching the children of any of these groups that they were discriminated against in the past is wrong, and teaching the descendants of anyone who might have visited the discrimination upon them about the past is superdy duperty wrong because it might make them feel bad.
Sure there are barriers. There are barriers for everybody. Life involves overcoming barriers. What we don't have is any appreciable evidence of barriers sufficient to block people for being black.

Serious question. Are you from some future utopian America where everything is perfect and you've also forgotten several centuries of history including the early 21st?

Because I've talked to young black men who experienced barriers so frequently it was routine. One of them said offhand "I get it, I'm black." Being pulled over for no apparent reason, or watched while walking through a neighborhood while wearing a hoodie, or being followed around a store by staff members thinking he'd rob the place.

I wonder what the reaction would be if I'd said "well, I've had just as many barriers put up for me, so you just need to overcome them like I do!"?
 
The point is that you can't make "things work now" without figuring out the past.

We can't just point to the passage of the Civil Rights Act over 50 years ago or the election of Obama 14 years ago and say "this whole institutional racism problem is solved!!!"

The problem has not gone away.

Your position seems to be that if you are black (or Hispanic, or Asian, or Jewish, or any other racial or ethnic minority), there are no barriers to your success and no level of lingering institutional racism at work in your life. Bootstraps and what not. What's more, teaching the children of any of these groups that they were discriminated against in the past is wrong, and teaching the descendants of anyone who might have visited the discrimination upon them about the past is superdy duperty wrong because it might make them feel bad.
Sure there are barriers. There are barriers for everybody. Life involves overcoming barriers. What we don't have is any appreciable evidence of barriers sufficient to block people for being black.

Serious question. Are you from some future utopian America where everything is perfect and you've also forgotten several centuries of history including the early 21st?

Because I've talked to young black men who experienced barriers so frequently it was routine. One of them said offhand "I get it, I'm black." Being pulled over for no apparent reason, or watched while walking through a neighborhood while wearing a hoodie, or being followed around a store by staff members thinking he'd rob the place.

I wonder what the reaction would be if I'd said "well, I've had just as many barriers put up for me, so you just need to overcome them like I do!"?
There might be some small place with barriers that are sufficient to stop someone. If so, deal with them. Do not, however, burden all of society with an obsession of removing obstacles for black people when everyone faces obstacles. The focus should be on overcoming obstacles, not on putting blame for obstacles.

Modern-day AA is about pretending that the obstacles are all due to racism and will magically go away if we manage to wipe out racism, while only bad actors bear the cost of doing this. This is utter fantasy, everyone bears the cost and nowhere near all the obstacles can be removed this way because most aren't from race in the first place. Furthermore, AA is itself an obstacle--by teaching that obstacles are due to evil actions for which the remedy is for others to fight the evil it discourages people from trying to overcome obstacles and thus holds blacks back.
 
I'm saying what I saw locally and since they were making an issue out of it I think they didn't have better data elsewhere.

There is a socioeconomic difference, sticking your head in the sand won't make it go away.
Yes, of course there is a socioeconomic difference between White and Black communities in the United States. Not only is that not a secret, it's exactly what "institutional racism" is meant to refer to.
Then institutional racism can go fuck a cholla.

You don't solve poverty with anti-racism efforts.
You might or might not, depending on how you understand "anti-racism", as this can describe many different problems and pragmatic methodologies, not all of which are relevant to economics. But, either way, you certainly do address systemic racism by combatting poverty. Some anti-racism efforts are also necessary for combatting both poverty and racism. Almost all such programs are heavily integrated with existing grassroots anti-poverty advocacy efforts, so this is not an either/or proposition, but simply the most obvious approach to addressing both challenges simultaneously. Again, the "insight" that poverty and race are integrally linked is not a new concept. In the sciences, we call that intersectionality theory, and it was synthesized with the existing corpus of critical race theory very early on. One of the foundational texts in critical race theory was Kimberle Crenshaw's Mapping the Margins (1991), which outlined a methodological approach to measuring and interpreting exactly the sort of "disparate outcomes" you are presumptively trying to discuss.
 
Modern-day AA is about pretending that the obstacles are all due to racism and will magically go away if we manage to wipe out racism, while only bad actors bear the cost of doing this.
This accurately describes no program of affirmative action I have ever heard of, in any time period, let alone in the "modern day" ( I presume you mean the last few years, not the entire Modern period). Who exactly are you referring to here?
 
I'm saying what I saw locally and since they were making an issue out of it I think they didn't have better data elsewhere.

There is a socioeconomic difference, sticking your head in the sand won't make it go away.
Yes, of course there is a socioeconomic difference between White and Black communities in the United States. Not only is that not a secret, it's exactly what "institutional racism" is meant to refer to.
Then institutional racism can go fuck a cholla.

You don't solve poverty with anti-racism efforts.
You might or might not, depending on how you understand "anti-racism", as this can describe many different problems and pragmatic methodologies, not all of which are relevant to economics. But, either way, you certainly do address systemic racism by combatting poverty. Some anti-racism efforts are also necessary for combatting both poverty and racism. Almost all such programs are heavily integrated with existing grassroots anti-poverty advocacy efforts, so this is not an either/or proposition, but simply the most obvious approach to addressing both challenges simultaneously. Again, the "insight" that poverty and race are integrally linked is not a new concept. In the sciences, we call that intersectionality theory, and it was synthesized with the existing corpus of critical race theory very early on. One of the foundational texts in critical race theory was Kimberle Crenshaw's Mapping the Margins (1991), which outlined a methodological approach to measuring and interpreting exactly the sort of "disparate outcomes" you are presumptively trying to discuss.
If racism is the cause of poverty then there would be no white people in poverty. Furthermore, clearly you can't solve white poverty by aiding blacks.
 
Modern-day AA is about pretending that the obstacles are all due to racism and will magically go away if we manage to wipe out racism, while only bad actors bear the cost of doing this.
This accurately describes no program of affirmative action I have ever heard of, in any time period, let alone in the "modern day" ( I presume you mean the last few years, not the entire Modern period). Who exactly are you referring to here?
In what fashion is it inaccurate?

The concept of institutional racism takes as a given that all differences are due to racism, something that is clearly false. (Really now, do the Nazis actually discriminate in favor of the Jews???) Any difference that isn't due to racism causes costs to non-racists. Furthermore, there is the cost of investigating/being investigated/avoiding being investigated.
 
Modern-day AA is about pretending that the obstacles are all due to racism and will magically go away if we manage to wipe out racism, while only bad actors bear the cost of doing this.
This accurately describes no program of affirmative action I have ever heard of, in any time period, let alone in the "modern day" ( I presume you mean the last few years, not the entire Modern period). Who exactly are you referring to here?
In what fashion is it inaccurate?

The concept of institutional racism takes as a given that all differences are due to racism,
That is a false premise.
 
In what fashion is it inaccurate?
Affirmative action has never been focused on blame at all, let alone exclusively, and no states or organizations Im aware of have ever claimed that eliminating racism would "magically" erase pocerty, crime, and other problems. That's not what it's for, and no one has made any such promises.

The concept of institutional racism takes as a given that all differences are due to racism, something that is clearly false.
No one has claimed this.
 
I'm saying what I saw locally and since they were making an issue out of it I think they didn't have better data elsewhere.

There is a socioeconomic difference, sticking your head in the sand won't make it go away.
Yes, of course there is a socioeconomic difference between White and Black communities in the United States. Not only is that not a secret, it's exactly what "institutional racism" is meant to refer to.
Then institutional racism can go fuck a cholla.

You don't solve poverty with anti-racism efforts.
You might or might not, depending on how you understand "anti-racism", as this can describe many different problems and pragmatic methodologies, not all of which are relevant to economics. But, either way, you certainly do address systemic racism by combatting poverty. Some anti-racism efforts are also necessary for combatting both poverty and racism. Almost all such programs are heavily integrated with existing grassroots anti-poverty advocacy efforts, so this is not an either/or proposition, but simply the most obvious approach to addressing both challenges simultaneously. Again, the "insight" that poverty and race are integrally linked is not a new concept. In the sciences, we call that intersectionality theory, and it was synthesized with the existing corpus of critical race theory very early on. One of the foundational texts in critical race theory was Kimberle Crenshaw's Mapping the Margins (1991), which outlined a methodological approach to measuring and interpreting exactly the sort of "disparate outcomes" you are presumptively trying to discuss.
If racism is the cause of poverty then there would be no white people in poverty. Furthermore, clearly you can't solve white poverty by aiding blacks.
What does this response have to do with the post it is quoting? :rolleyes: I said none of the things you seem to be "responding" to.
 
If racism is the cause of poverty then there would be no white people in poverty.
Similarly, if intoxication is the cause of road traffic crashes then there would be no crashes caused by sober people.

I don't recommend that you depend upon this excuse in a court of law though.
 
If racism is the cause of poverty then there would be no white people in poverty.

No one has said racism is "the cause," but rather a cause. Racism is and has been a factor in producing poverty for centuries. Historically, there has been both racism and poor white people.
 
In America, racism and slavery went hand in hand. It helped cause a lot of white poverty in the South as free white farmers had a hard time competing with slave labor and large plantations. Such issues have been a problem since Roman times. Free men competing with slave labor.
 
If racism is the cause of poverty then there would be no white people in poverty.

No one has said racism is "the cause," but rather a cause. Racism is and has been a factor in producing poverty for centuries. Historically, there has been both racism and poor white people.
Ah, but according to LP, it's just a lack of boot straps that's the real problem! If you're black and grew up in a poor neighborhood made that way by decades of systemic discrimination in housing, education, infrastructure and opportunities, the problem is really your lack of ambition! The fact that you get pulled over more often by the police if you venture into the more affluent neighborhood has nothing to do with race! Racism is all in the past!
 
Modern-day AA is about pretending that the obstacles are all due to racism and will magically go away if we manage to wipe out racism, while only bad actors bear the cost of doing this.
This accurately describes no program of affirmative action I have ever heard of, in any time period, let alone in the "modern day" ( I presume you mean the last few years, not the entire Modern period). Who exactly are you referring to here?
In what fashion is it inaccurate?

The concept of institutional racism takes as a given that all differences are due to racism, something that is clearly false.
Yes... I think that almost no one believes the above... because it is clearly false.
 
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