Are atheists "Scrooges" by ruining all the fun of religious faith?

[Unknown Soldier]

The stereotypical view of atheists is that they are a bunch of bitter spoilsports who since they cannot entertain comforting notions of a Daddy God, miracles of provision and protection, and hope for immortality, must ruin all the fun of the people who do entertain such notions. But I've had people, many of whom are avowed atheists themselves, object to anybody who seeks to debunk religion. In another forum years ago, for example, I started a thread at the Reasons to Believe board about the futility of seeking and hoping for life beyond the grave. I told the Christians there that if they really want to see what awaits them beyond the grave, then all they need to do is dig up any grave and take a look. All they will see, of course, are the pitiful, rotting remains of what used to be a person who now resides in a cold, dark box six feet underground. "There's your salvation! That's the heaven Jesus promised you!"

I was just plain nasty.

Another member there, an avowed atheist, jumped on me like white on rice: "Let them believe what they want to believe!" To this atheist I was going too far. The truth I posted was just too monstrously cruel to say. Like some other atheists, he feels it is wrong to disabuse the religious of their faith. They're not harming anybody, and if it feels good to them, then let them believe it.

So was I a Scrooge? Am I the Grinch who tries to steal the supposed joy of Christ?

 

[lostone]

I am willing to let theists do what they will, as long as they do not force their views on other people. OTOH, they seem to find that impossible to do, and seemingly make no effort to do so, and theists seem also to make every effort to make life as difficult as possible for those who do not share their faith 99+ per cent. It's hard to live in peace with people who make every effort to be as hard to live with as possible.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Anyway, Scrooge and the Grinch are not role models for anyone who savors snark. Both of them "reformed", saw the "error" of their ways, and got all warm and cuddly by the last page. They caved! Scrooge became a softie. The Grinch lost his zing. Better avatars would be writers who gave no quarter to Christian piety, like Hitchens, Mencken, Dawkins, Paine, Voltaire. You know, the writers who bring the utmost fun to the reading experience. And they're not meant for the faithful. I'm sure my born-again cousins don't read them. They're meant for believers who are starting to question belief and for the thorough materialists who need a good laugh and find it in descriptions of bizarre orthodoxies. Let the believers read their Purpose Driven Life. I've got my shelf of fearless and sarcastic freethinkers.

 

[DBT]

Each to their own, if it causes no harm.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I am willing to let theists do what they will...

I assume by "do what they will" you're referring to commonly accepted religious practices like prayer, worship, and off-key singing in houses of worship on a special day of the week. I basically agree with that although many religious people would not agree with it. Many religions want to rule over other religions and ultimately banish them from the face of the earth, or at least that's what Christianity seeks to do.

Do you see the paradox? Irreligion can actually enhance religion or at least enhance religious freedom and pluralism.

...as long as they do not force their views on other people.

They would need the Inquisition or Joe Stalin to do that.

OTOH, they seem to find that impossible to do, and seemingly make no effort to do so, and theists seem also to make every effort to make life as difficult as possible for those who do not share their faith 99+ per cent. It's hard to live in peace with people who make every effort to be as hard to live with as possible.

Yes. That's essentially correct. The image of the happy-go-lucky Christian who only wants to be left alone to enjoy her beliefs doesn't have much to do with reality. Christians are mandated to evangelize unbelievers, so generally it is the Christian and not the unbeliever who raises the issue of the beliefs of Christianity. If Christians cannot take skepticism, then they should keep their beliefs to themselves.

Finally, I think that the atheist who objected to my telling Christians about the reality of death may have been hoping that there is a life after death. He may have harbored a bit of such a belief and was hoping that he could be convinced of it.

 

[southernhybrid]

I am willing to let theists do what they will, as long as they do not force their views on other people. OTOH, they seem to find that impossible to do, and seemingly make no effort to do so, and theists seem also to make every effort to make life as difficult as possible for those who do not share their faith 99+ per cent. It's hard to live in peace with people who make every effort to be as hard to live with as possible.

I agree, but I find it's primarily evangelical/conservative Christians who try to "save me". I have several Christian friends who know I'm an atheist and have never tried to force their religious beliefs on me. In turn, I have never tried to convince them that their beliefs are wrong. We have mutual respect for each based on character, not on beliefs. In fact, now that I think of it, my wonderful neighbor across the street from me, knows that we are atheists. He and his wife are non practicing Christians and we simply respect each other's right to believe whatever we feel works for us.

The hard part is that this neighbor is a Republican who believes all kinds of misinformation that I assume he's heard on right wing media. We just avoid discussing politics with him to keep the peace. When he told my husband that Obama was born in Kenya, we knew it was probably hopeless to convince him otherwise. When I was a child, people were told it was best never to discuss politics or religion with friends. That was probably good advice as people weren't nearly as hateful and divisive as so many are these days.

On the other hand, if a believer comes to a discussion board like this one to argue about religion, they probably get what they deserve, although we don't need to be mean when trying to convince them their beliefs aren't based on evidence.

I realize how much the church community and emotional appeal of religion has for so many people. Why would I want to try to take that away from them? But, if they start it, I will be honest with them and tell them exactly how I feel about their beliefs. Again, this is almost always conservative Christians that start this shit. I've never been "witnessed" to by a Jew or a Catholic. JWs and Mormons used to be door knockers. I'm not sure they even do that anymore. When they did, I always politely told them I'm an atheist and I'm not interested in discussing religion with them.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...

I was just plain nasty.

...
So was I a Scrooge? Am I the Grinch who tries to steal the supposed joy of Christ?

The way that a particular individual might express a particular idea does not mean that every other individual with the same or similar ideas will express it in the same way and so the title:
"Are atheists 'Scrooges' by ruining all the fun of religious faith?"

, i.e. applying it to the group doesn't necessarily follow.

Let me express this another way. Telling people the truth about their theism isn't necessarily cruel or nasty. Person A might do so in one way with cruelty and arrogance and get negative feedback even from fellow atheists while Person B might relay the same idea with compassion and humility and then not receive the feedback, even if the feedback could have theoretically been there. A fellow atheist might not say the same thing when all factors put together triggering a response are not present.

 

[braces_for_impact]

The typical evangelical seems simultaneously hell-bent on insisting that Christmas is THEIR holiday, while also insisting that everyone celebrate it THEIR way. Fucking pick one, will ya? Seems to me, they're angling to be personally butt-hurt one way or another, in order to satisfy their need to feel persecuted.

 

[ideologyhunter]

If it were not for the "spoil-sport" freethinkers who critique religion, I don't know if I would have liberated myself from the pervasive delusions of piety. I'd like to think so, but who knows. I might have gone with the flow as a social Christian. There are naturally inquisitive, confident kids who aren't buying what the religious community puts out -- I love them and their defiance more than I can say -- but was I one of them? I had a lot of help: my dad was agnostic, his bookshelf had some Bertrand Russell, and those were the signposts that led away from theism. We're so lucky to have a society that doesn't criminalize blasphemy. The golden standards of 'Think for yourself' and 'Don't believe anyone's bullshit' and most of all 'Show me the evidence' need to be there for everyone to access -- or ignore -- as their brain power decides.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Anyway, Scrooge and the Grinch are not role models for anyone who savors snark.

But they were both snarky.

Both of them "reformed", saw the "error" of their ways, and got all warm and cuddly by the last page.

So once snarky, always snarky, or all that pre-snarkyness doesn't matter. I preferred them both when they were mean.

They caved! Scrooge became a softie. The Grinch lost his zing.

Tragedy. Those two and the Titanic sinks are the worst three.

Better avatars would be writers who gave no quarter to Christian piety, like Hitchens, Mencken, Dawkins, Paine, Voltaire.

Should they write a story where Jesus stays dead?

You know, the writers who bring the utmost fun to the reading experience. And they're not meant for the faithful. I'm sure my born-again cousins don't read them. They're meant for believers who are starting to question belief and for the thorough materialists who need a good laugh and find it in descriptions of bizarre orthodoxies. Let the believers read their Purpose Driven Life. I've got my shelf of fearless and sarcastic freethinkers.

Yes. I like free thinking too. And that includes free-thinking Christianity.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The typical evangelical seems simultaneously hell-bent on insisting that Christmas is THEIR holiday, while also insisting that everyone celebrate it THEIR way. Fucking pick one, will ya? Seems to me, they're angling to be personally butt-hurt one way or another, in order to satisfy their need to feel persecuted.

Tell all those Christians that Santa Claus never inspired killing.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

When I was a child, people were told it was best never to discuss politics or religion with friends. That was probably good advice as people weren't nearly as hateful and divisive as so many are these days.

I can't recall a time when people were neither hateful nor divisive. When was this lost golden age?

On the other hand, if a believer comes to a discussion board like this one to argue about religion, they probably get what they deserve...

I'd love to debate Christians here. I understand they've been driven off. Is that correct? I've had Christians tell me they've been mistreated here.

...although we don't need to be mean when trying to convince them their beliefs aren't based on evidence.

Don't be mean. Reason and knowledge can work miracles.

I realize how much the church community and emotional appeal of religion has for so many people. Why would I want to try to take that away from them?

As I see it, taking religion away from somebody is like taking garbage away from them. In those cases it's better for us to receive than to give. If we do give, then we should give knowledge. That's why we should take away from them. Education involves the eradication of ignorance.

But, if they start it, I will be honest with them and tell them exactly how I feel about their beliefs.

On any discussion board regarding religion any sensible person should expect disagreement regarding religious belief but abuse should not be allowed.

Again, this is almost always conservative Christians that start this shit. I've never been "witnessed" to by a Jew or a Catholic.

Catholics have tried to reconvert me several times, but I don't necessarily object to it. I just out-argue them.

JWs and Mormons used to be door knockers. I'm not sure they even do that anymore.

I haven't seen any of them in years because of Covid, but I have spoken to a Jehovah's Witness on the phone. I enjoyed my interactions with them.

When they did, I always politely told them I'm an atheist and I'm not interested in discussing religion with them.

Good. Be polite in person and online.

 

[steve_bank]

Oh what the hell, its Christmas so I gave him a like.

Ho Ho Ho Soldier, merry Christmas and a happy new year. May you find some peace and comfort for your troubles in the new year.

 

[southernhybrid]

I can't recall a time when people were neither hateful nor divisive. When was this lost golden age?

I was a child in the 1950s. I'm not claiming that everyone got along perfectly, but people did get along a lot better compared to the late 60s or the most recent years. As I said before, most people seemed to avoid discussing politics or religion with friends who had different viewpoints. For that matter, the two political parties often worked together in Congress and past more bipartisan bills compared to the last few decades. My parents probably did try to convert people in their early years as evangelical converts, but as they grew older, they never did that any longer.

As I see it, taking religion away from somebody is like taking garbage away from them. In those cases it's better for us to receive than to give. If we do give, then we should give knowledge. That's why we should take away from them. Education involves the eradication of ignorance.

We can respectfully disagree on that one. I know how powerful and important religious mythology is and as long as it's not extreme, it can add a lot of joy to some people's lives. I have friends like that. It's not just the beliefs, it's the community, the emotional joy and probably the hope. that it gives some people. Btw, I've personally known several Methodists who were also atheists. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of atheists sitting in church pews because they enjoy the community and probably the myths that religion offers. They just don't take them literally.

I'd love to debate Christians here. I understand they've been driven off. Is that correct? I've had Christians tell me they've been mistreated here.

I don't think they were mistreated. I think they either got bored or discouraged when none of us became converts. If they say they were mistreated, they are either lying or they were over reacting to any type of criticism. Criticism doesn't bother me, but some people don't take it well. it's best not to let what others think about you hurt your self esteem, imo. How else do you think I've managed to be a happy, well adjusted atheist living in the heart of the Bible Belt for many decades? I think telling someone they are going to hell if they don't have the same beliefs is quite an ugly way to treat others. When somebody tells me that, I might become a bit angry, although I don't remember doing that here. I just did it several months ago irl, when I was told that by an evangelical who learned I was an atheist. But guess what? She and I are on very friendly terms now because I continue to be friendly towards her. We didn't change each other's beliefs, but she realized after getting to know me better, that Christians don't have any higher moral standards than atheists. There are good and bad in all groups of people. Have you ever read some of the nasty things that Christians say or write about atheists? I have and that is one reason why I'm usually out about my beliefs irl. I like to show them that we are no different than anyone else. We aren't demon possessed monsters, or any or the other crazy things that some of them believe about us. I don't try to convert anyone. If they have doubts about their beliefs, they will look for something else. That's what I did as a teenager. There were no discussion boards back then and I never met another atheist who tried to convince me to be an atheist. I figured it out all by myself. But, you should understand that a place like this provides an outlet for some atheists who don't have one irl. It gives them the chance to express themselves more forcefully than they might feel comfortable doing in person, especially in this day and age, when people are shooting others for the craziest of reasons. That's another thing that didn't happen when I was growing up. People usually kept their ugly feelings to themselves and they didn't shoot or kill each other over political or religious differences. At least not in my experiences growing up.

On any discussion board regarding religion any sensible person should expect disagreement regarding religious belief but abuse should not be allowed.

I think perhaps the way you define abuse is very different from how some of us define abuse. I've been here over 20 years and have never felt that anyone has been abused, at least not by my definition of abuse. I guess the old saying, "There is no reality, only perception" applies in some cases. I've been misunderstood before, but I don't let it bother me. Life's too short to get upset over what someone says to me on a discussion board. I've been happily married for over 40 years. We get angry at each other at times, but neither of us ever carry a grudge. I think that's the best way to be.

That's all I have to say. Have a good night.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

If it were not for the "spoil-sport" freethinkers who critique religion, I don't know if I would have liberated myself from the pervasive delusions of piety. I'd like to think so, but who knows. I might have gone with the flow as a social Christian. There are naturally inquisitive, confident kids who aren't buying what the religious community puts out -- I love them and their defiance more than I can say -- but was I one of them? I had a lot of help: my dad was agnostic, his bookshelf had some Bertrand Russell, and those were the signposts that led away from theism. We're so lucky to have a society that doesn't criminalize blasphemy. The golden standards of 'Think for yourself' and 'Don't believe anyone's bullshit' and most of all 'Show me the evidence' need to be there for everyone to access -- or ignore -- as their brain power decides.

The Solstice is the Reason for the Season. Man do they hate to hear that one. It's quite amazing how many people you find who don't even know what you are talking about. So who's the grinch here? When you say that all these religious celebrations are based upon the Solstice and the earth's natural cycles, not a magic baby, they think you're loony.

I let folks have their fun, even their uninformed fun. If I'm over their house and they want to pray that's okay with me. At our house we don't pray. In the end I think it's healthy to give folks the truth, even if they don't want to hear it, just do so tactfully and lovingly.

 

[bilby]

 

[gmbteach]

A friend of mine is staying and in response to reading out the title of this thread said:

I can’t get past the idea of ’fun’ in religion.

Enough said.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

A friend of mine is staying and in response to reading out the title of this thread said:

I can’t get past the idea of ’fun’ in religion.

Enough said.

Fun is subjective. You might not enjoy stealing all your followers' money so you can run around with your pants unzipped at your yacht party, but other people might be into that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/07/falwell-photo-pants-yacht/

 

[steve_bank]

Christmas is fun, it has long been a commercial secular holiday. A mid winter break from work for adults and for school kids. A time to be frivolous and self insurgent.

Christmas advertising starts a little earlier every year. Consumer spending drives the economy.

On the relgious side, not quite fun.

I watched a news segment from Bethlehem in a small space aaid to be the birthplace. Three or four guys in goofy costumes walking around each other burning incense and reciting something. One guy had a robe with a high kind of a collar with glitzy decoration. Something you would see in a B scifi and sorcery movie. It rescinded me of Ming in the Flash Gordon movie.

I came to believe Christina are living a sorcery f antsy adventure, in their heads of course.

flash godron movie ming - Google Search

 

[rousseau]

There can be an element of masochism there, some people argue just to put others in their place, not for any particular benevolent reason.