Are Bernie and Warren finally going to clash?

[Jolly_Penguin]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/politics/bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren-meeting/index.html

CNN looks to be stirring the pot in reporting a potential clash between Bernie and Warren, over (surprise surprise) identity politics.

That evening, Sanders expressed frustration at what he saw as a growing focus among Democrats on identity politics, according to one of the people familiar with the conversation. Warren told Sanders she disagreed with his assessment that a woman could not win, three of the four sources said.

Sanders denied the characterization of the meeting in a statement to CNN.

"It is ludicrous to believe that at the same meeting where Elizabeth Warren told me she was going to run for president, I would tell her that a woman couldn't win," Sanders said. "It's sad that, three weeks before the Iowa caucus and a year after that private conversation, staff who weren't in the room are lying about what happened. What I did say that night was that Donald Trump is a sexist, a racist and a liar who would weaponize whatever he could. Do I believe a woman can win in 2020? Of course! After all, Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump by 3 million votes in 2016."

So.... Bernie is sexist or something? Warren is a woman so vote for vagina? Hopefully the two candidates won't go there despite this coaxing by media. So far both have done a pretty good job of rising above this sort of thing. Unlike Hillary, Warren hasn't played the "Woman Card" very strongly. Its also good for the both of them that they stand together, to keep the progressive movement strong up against Biden, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, etc.

I hope they can both agree with Sanders that:

Sanders himself weighed in shortly after the 2016 election, saying that "one of the struggles that you're going to be seeing in the Democratic Party is whether we go beyond identity politics."

"I think it's a step forward in America if you have an African American CEO of some major corporation. But you know what, if that guy is going to be shipping jobs out of this country, and exploiting his workers, it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot whether he's black or white or Latino," he said at an appearance in Boston to promote his book, according to WBUR.

So... are Warren and Sanders finally going to clash? I hope not yet, if at all. But we should find out at the upcoming debate.

 

[Toni]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/politics/bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren-meeting/index.html

CNN looks to be stirring the pot in reporting a potential clash between Bernie and Warren, over (surprise surprise) identity politics.

That evening, Sanders expressed frustration at what he saw as a growing focus among Democrats on identity politics, according to one of the people familiar with the conversation. Warren told Sanders she disagreed with his assessment that a woman could not win, three of the four sources said.

Sanders denied the characterization of the meeting in a statement to CNN.

"It is ludicrous to believe that at the same meeting where Elizabeth Warren told me she was going to run for president, I would tell her that a woman couldn't win," Sanders said. "It's sad that, three weeks before the Iowa caucus and a year after that private conversation, staff who weren't in the room are lying about what happened. What I did say that night was that Donald Trump is a sexist, a racist and a liar who would weaponize whatever he could. Do I believe a woman can win in 2020? Of course! After all, Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump by 3 million votes in 2016."

So.... Bernie is sexist or something? Warren is a woman so vote for vagina? Hopefully the two candidates won't go there despite this coaxing by media. So far both have done a pretty good job of rising above this sort of thing. Unlike Hillary, Warren hasn't played the "Woman Card" very strongly. Its also good for the both of them that they stand together, to keep the progressive movement strong up against Biden, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, etc.

I hope they can both agree with Sanders that:

Sanders himself weighed in shortly after the 2016 election, saying that "one of the struggles that you're going to be seeing in the Democratic Party is whether we go beyond identity politics."

"I think it's a step forward in America if you have an African American CEO of some major corporation. But you know what, if that guy is going to be shipping jobs out of this country, and exploiting his workers, it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot whether he's black or white or Latino," he said at an appearance in Boston to promote his book, according to WBUR.

So... are Warren and Sanders finally going to clash? I hope not yet, if at all. But we should find out at the upcoming debate.

I know that a lot of white males are comforted by Bernie's words.

As for playing 'identity politics?' White and male has been the only identity that has counted throughout American history and before. It's not exactly progressive for Bernie and his bros to decide that it's all equal now and the only thing that matters is that things are going our way and that (old white) men are still in charge. Because that's really what they are saying. Notice in Bernie's examples, it's always a guy. It isn't that I think that Bernie is explicitly anti-woman or anti-black or anti-non-white. I just think that he only sees the world through his white old man eyes where what he is saying now was said 40+ years ago by other white men, albeit younger ones. I think he simply does not consider that there are other points of view, other perspectives that should be considered, much less sought or valued.

It's a major weakness.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here is my main problem with the claim... there are no quotes regarding what Sanders said.

The description of that meeting is based on the accounts of four people: two people Warren spoke with directly soon after the encounter, and two people familiar with the meeting.

Two people "familiar" with the meeting? How does that give their opinion any validation? And 3 of 4 agreed, which means 1 in 4 thinks the connotation is incorrect?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I know that a lot of white males are comforted by Bernie's words.

That he didn't say a woman can't win, and said the opposite? Or that he hopes the Democrat party can see beyond identity politics and not back down against corporate greed just because they put a race - progressive paint job on it?

It's not exactly progressive for Bernie and his bros to decide that it's all equal now and the only thing that matters is that things are going our way and that (old white) men are still in charge. Because that's really what they are saying.

Your claimed ability to read minds never fails to impress.

Notice in Bernie's examples, it's always a guy. It isn't that I think that Bernie is explicitly anti-woman or anti-black or anti-non-white. I just think that he only sees the world through his white old man eyes where what he is saying now was said 40+ years ago by other white men, albeit younger ones. I think he simply does not consider that there are other points of view, other perspectives that should be considered, much less sought or valued.

He said nothing whatsoever like that. Have you considered that maybe you see an old white man and it is you who are prejudiced into judging him based on his gender and race?

It's a major weakness.

But his, or yours?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Here is my main problem with the claim... there are no quotes regarding what Sanders said.

The description of that meeting is based on the accounts of four people: two people Warren spoke with directly soon after the encounter, and two people familiar with the meeting.

Two people "familiar" with the meeting? How does that give their opinion any validation? And 3 of 4 agreed, which means 1 in 4 thinks the connotation is incorrect?

And Sanders outright stated the opposite of what people are claiming he said..... and even if he did say as claimed, that wouldn't even mean he's sexist. It would mean he thinks America is... which he doesn't.

I also don't think that Warren is playing into this, to her credit. This appears to be the media trying to create a rift. Its well known that they favour the Biden/Buttigieg/Klobuchar end of the party.

 

[TSwizzle]

The Russians are playing CNN. Too easy.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The Russians are playing CNN. Too easy.

Hi Rachel Maddow

I wonder if the Russians do have a preference between Bernie/Warren and Biden/Buttigieg/Bloomberg/Klobuchar

 

[Toni]

That he didn't say a woman can't win, and said the opposite? Or that he hopes the Democrat party can see beyond identity politics and not back down against corporate greed just because they put a race - progressive paint job on it?

Quote from your OP:

Quote Originally Posted by CNN
Sanders himself weighed in shortly after the 2016 election, saying that "one of the struggles that you're going to be seeing in the Democratic Party is whether we go beyond identity politics."

"I think it's a step forward in America if you have an African American CEO of some major corporation. But you know what, if that guy is going to be shipping jobs out of this country, and exploiting his workers, it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot whether he's black or white or Latino," he said at an appearance in Boston to promote his book, according to WBUR.

Your claimed ability to read minds never fails to impress.

Your willingness to misinterpret and misrepresent me has never impressed. What you call 'ability to read minds' is actually the ability to read the written word and to understand what words mean.

Notice in Bernie's examples, it's always a guy. It isn't that I think that Bernie is explicitly anti-woman or anti-black or anti-non-white. I just think that he only sees the world through his white old man eyes where what he is saying now was said 40+ years ago by other white men, albeit younger ones. I think he simply does not consider that there are other points of view, other perspectives that should be considered, much less sought or valued.

He said nothing whatsoever like that. Have you considered that maybe you see an old white man and it is you who are prejudiced into judging him based on his gender and race?

Please go back and re-read the quote I pulled down here from your OP: He's talking about guys. It's always guys--unless it's some throw away about of course we believe in a woman's right to choose or hold a job kind of thing. That one of his staff mentioned he should say because women also vote and some people think he's a sexist. FWIW, I just think he has very narrow tunnel vision. And that's a serious flaw.

AFAIK, Bernie has never commented on what I think. I'd be astonished if he knows I exist. I'd be similarly astonished if he knew I existed if I worked on his campaign in the main headquarters. From what I hear from Bernie's mouth and from quotes I read of his speeches and interviews, I get the impression that women and persons of color are not really an issue for him--unless its specifically an issue pertaining to women or persons of color. He doesn't seem to look at policy positions and consider them from any point of view other than that of an old white man who likes to think of himself as a rebel. And he probably was for someone from NH 50 years ago.

What I see when I look at Bernie is an old man who speaks to hear himself talk and is delighted that he has an audience who thinks he's saying something fresh or new. He's not. I'm sure he's delighted that AOC is impressed by him and that he's finally, after decades in various legislatures, gotten some juice. I think nothing will ever impress Bernie quite as much as the sound of his own voice. The only thing that will come close is if he hears someone, (hopefully a pretty young woman) saying something that he said, and giving him credit, although his ideas did not originate with him.

But his, or yours?

We're talking about Bernie Sanders. I believe it is a TOU violation to make a political discussion about how much you dislike another poster. I'm not sure why you feel the need to attempt to derail discussions by personal attacks on me but it's more than a little old. Just like Bernie.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

He said nothing whatsoever like that. Have you considered that maybe you see an old white man and it is you who are prejudiced into judging him based on his gender and race?

Please go back and re-read the quote I pulled down here from your OP: He's talking about guys. It's always guys--unless it's some throw away about of course we believe in a woman's right to choose or hold a job kind of thing.

Wow. He used a male pronoun. Well ok then. I guess you really can read minds... He must think all these things you say he thinks.

I'd be similarly astonished if he knew I existed if I worked on his campaign in the main headquarters. From what I hear from Bernie's mouth and from quotes I read of his speeches and interviews, I get the impression that women and persons of color are not really an issue for him--unless its specifically an issue pertaining to women or persons of color. He doesn't seem to look at policy positions and consider them from any point of view other than that of an old white man who likes to think of himself as a rebel. And he probably was for someone from NH 50 years ago.

And you have convinced yourself of this.... I think because he is an old white man. You're projecting a lot here.

What I see when I look at Bernie is an old man who speaks to hear himself talk and is delighted that he has an audience who thinks he's saying something fresh or new. He's not.

Uh huh. I don't recall ever hearing him say that he came up with all these ideas. He continually points to other countries (like mine) already doing some of them. He also references others from the past. And he HAS been pushing his views for a very long time, even back when they were very unpopular. That's something I give him props for. He was for gay marriage long before Hillary and Obama decided Marriage isn't just between a man and a woman for example.

I'm sure he's delighted that AOC is impressed by him and that he's finally, after decades in various legislatures, gotten some juice.

But she's a woman. Didn't you just try to tell us that he doesn't notice or pay attention or see women or see anything with women in mind?

But his, or yours?

We're talking about Bernie Sanders. I believe it is a TOU violation to make a political discussion about how much you dislike another poster. I'm not sure why you feel the need to attempt to derail discussions by personal attacks on me but it's more than a little old. Just like Bernie.

Its not a personal attack against you. Its actually exactly mirroring you regarding Bernie. Are you personally attacking Bernie Sanders? You are creating things about him out of whole cloth, I think because of his race and gender. No? That's not it? Maybe I can't read minds. Guess what? You can't either.

And I derailed nothing. I started this thread, about a hit piece trying to drive a wedge between Sanders and Warren. You tried to derail it with different venom against Bernie and you failed.

 

[Toni]

Wow. He used a male pronoun. Well ok then. I guess you really can read minds... He must think all these things you say he thinks.

Wow. You want to convince me that Bernie is all progressive and shit. He's soooo cool that he doesn't need to use progressive language although he's running for POTUS and is supposed to want to represent everyone and is supposedly smart enough to know that words matter, that how you state things, the terms that you use demonstrate a mind set. My opinion is that his mindset is that of a white man who is now old. It's his perspective. It's not new or fresh just because kids today like a grumpy old grandpa of a guy saying outrageous shit. Not that what he says is outrageous outside of TrumpWorld. How people say things says something about how they think about things.

I'd be similarly astonished if he knew I existed if I worked on his campaign in the main headquarters. From what I hear from Bernie's mouth and from quotes I read of his speeches and interviews, I get the impression that women and persons of color are not really an issue for him--unless its specifically an issue pertaining to women or persons of color. He doesn't seem to look at policy positions and consider them from any point of view other than that of an old white man who likes to think of himself as a rebel. And he probably was for someone from NH 50 years ago.

And you have convinced yourself of this.... I think because he is an old white man. You're projecting a lot here.

Bernie has convinced me.

Aren't your counter arguments strong enough in support of what a visionary Bernie is that you can just skip trying to make this about me? If you have a case in support of Bernie, make it. Don't attack me personally. And look up the term project. I think you're using it incorrectly.

What I see when I look at Bernie is an old man who speaks to hear himself talk and is delighted that he has an audience who thinks he's saying something fresh or new. He's not.

Uh huh. I don't recall ever hearing him say that he came up with all these ideas. He continually points to other countries (like mine) already doing some of them. He also references others from the past. And he HAS been pushing his views for a very long time, even back when they were very unpopular. That's something I give him props for. He was for gay marriage long before Hillary and Obama decided Marriage isn't just between a man and a woman for example.

See, I know you think this is true but it's really not. Yes, Bernie has been saying 'these things' or most of them for a long long time. So have I and so have a lot of people of my generation. He's just started to talk a little bit about ideas that Richard Nixon put forth. Yeah, that Richard Nixon. I'm a lot younger than Bernie but not so much younger that I don't remember what was popular 'back then' and what people were fighting for 'back then.' I don't find his ideas impressive because I've heard them and shared them for decades now. I don't think he'd be an effective POTUS based on how ineffective he's been in his decades in various elected offices. It's my opinion based on observation of Bernie and his career.

I also think he's too old. So is Biden. So is Warren, although she's much more spry and young for her age than either Biden or Bernie, both of whom have had very serious health issues in the not distant past.

I'm sure he's delighted that AOC is impressed by him and that he's finally, after decades in various legislatures, gotten some juice.

But she's a woman. Didn't you just try to tell us that he doesn't notice or pay attention or see women or see anything with women in mind?

I think that Bernie is delighted that a young, attractive woman is giving him attention and props. I think he only cares about what AOC thinks only so long as it mirrors what he thinks.

Its not a personal attack against you. Its actually exactly mirroring you regarding Bernie. Are you personally attacking Bernie Sanders? You are creating things about him out of whole cloth, I think because of his race and gender. No? That's not it? Maybe I can't read minds. Guess what? You can't either.

And I derailed nothing. I started this thread, about a hit piece trying to drive a wedge between Sanders and Warren. You tried to derail it with different venom against Bernie and you failed.

This thread discussion is about Bernie Sanders. He is up for discussion. I am not. If you think I've posted venom, then I think you must have had an extremely sheltered life.

 

[laughing dog]

Wow. He used a male pronoun. Well ok then. I guess you really can read minds... He must think all these things you say he thinks.

Toni made a claim that easily debunked by coming up with a Bernie quote that uses a woman as an example. If her claim is mistaken or false, it ought to be easy for a admitted Bernie bro or someone who values actual fact-based discussion to come up with a counter example instead of making insinuations about projections.


Getting back to the OP, apparently there is a some sort of talking point paper for Bernie volunteers that Ms. Warren feels violates some sort of "non-aggression pact" she and Bernie made (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/exploiting-fissures-on-the-left-is-like-shooting-fish-in-a-barrel-and-thats-a-big-problem-for-democrats/)

 

[Toni]

Wow. He used a male pronoun. Well ok then. I guess you really can read minds... He must think all these things you say he thinks.

Toni made a claim that easily debunked by coming up with a Bernie quote that uses a woman as an example. If her claim is mistaken or false, it ought to be easy for a admitted Bernie bro or someone who values actual fact-based discussion to come up with a counter example instead of making insinuations about projections.


Getting back to the OP, apparently there is a some sort of talking point paper for Bernie volunteers that Ms. Warren feels violates some sort of "non-aggression pact" she and Bernie made (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/exploiting-fissures-on-the-left-is-like-shooting-fish-in-a-barrel-and-thats-a-big-problem-for-democrats/)

Here's a statement I found on Twitter:



This is why I think Warren would be a far better POTUS than Sanders.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Wow. You want to convince me that Bernie is all progressive and shit.

I don't want to convince you of anything. You've clearly made up your mind, regardless of facts or reason.

He's soooo cool that he doesn't need to use progressive language although he's running for POTUS

Why are you complaining he said he instead of she? What about zer and the other dozen pronouns people use these days? And do you apply this standard to anyone else? I haven't ever seen you do so.

My opinion is that his mindset is that of a white man who is now old. It's his perspective. It's not new or fresh just because kids today like a grumpy old grandpa of a guy saying outrageous shit.

What ourtageous shit does he say? That he's for medicare for all and a living wage? Is that outrageous to you? Is that magical ponies as Hillary put it?

Not that what he says is outrageous outside of TrumpWorld.

Oh so he didn't say outrageous shit? Or you live in Trumpworld? What are you trying to say?

And you have convinced yourself of this.... I think because he is an old white man. You're projecting a lot here.

Bernie has convinced me.

Because he's an old white man. Yes. I get it.

If you have a case in support of Bernie, make it.

I support 90% of what Bernie stands for, but I'm even more in support of Yang, so its not really my case to make at this point. I will stand up for him when CNN writes a hit piece against him, or when you make groundless allegations against him due to your own personal issues.

Don't attack me personally.

I'm not attacking you personally. I'm defending against your attack. And you should probably grow a thicker skin if you are going to spew venom so frequently at others.

Yes, Bernie has been saying 'these things' or most of them for a long long time. So have I and so have a lot of people of my generation.

So you have been saying the same things, yet you oppose the one guy who is running for president trying to make them happen... because you think he's an old white man?

I don't think he'd be an effective POTUS based on how ineffective he's been in his decades in various elected offices. It's my opinion based on observation of Bernie and his career.

That's an entirely different point. And you may be right about this point. He may try and fail. But at least he'll try. Biden won't. Biden has been on the opposite side of most of these issues. Buttigieg won't. He's busy dining people in wine caves. Klobuchar? Who? Warren is the closest to Bernie. Yang isn't too far off (though he's off the mark on health care; he does push further for universal basic income).

I think that Bernie is delighted that a young, attractive woman is giving him attention and props.

Based on what? Now he's a womanizer? Bernie Sanders of all people? That's just hilarious.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Toni made a claim that easily debunked by coming up with a Bernie quote that uses a woman as an example.

I don't believe for a second that that would make any difference whatsoever to Toni, so I wouldn't bother. She'd just say he said he more than he said she. Ignoring the zers completely. My word!

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Also further to my point a few posts up, even if Bernie did say he didn't think a woman could win.... that wouldn't be him being sexist. That would be him calling America sexist. And guess what? That's exactly what Hillary Clinton claimed as one of the reasons for her loss. So if you're going to damn Bernie... Hillary goes right along with him.

And this turning on Bernie and creating friction with Warren supporters is EXACTLY what this hit piece set out to do. Divide the progressives with identity politics to take them down. Why do you folks think this didn't come up until now, after the field is narrowing and Warren is emerging as the sole woman with any chance of winning the nomination? Suddenly its time to play identity politics and the woman card to divide.... Ya... Not buying it.

 

[laughing dog]

Toni made a claim that easily debunked by coming up with a Bernie quote that uses a woman as an example.

I don't believe for a second that that would make any difference whatsoever to Toni, so I wouldn't bother. She'd just say he said he more than he said she. Ignoring the zers completely. My word!

In other words, you have no factual rebuttal.

The next debate will provide evidence whether the non-aggression pact between Mr. Sanders and Ms Warren is seriously broached.

 

[Toni]

I don't want to convince you of anything. You've clearly made up your mind, regardless of facts or reason.

I have made up my mind by following the issues and the candidates and assessing their abilities. I've never been a fan of Kool Aide no matter the packaging.

Bernie Sanders is too old to withstand the rigors of the office of POTUS effectively. We can look at Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump as two modern day examples of old men who badly declined during their first terms. I never cared for either of them before they ran for office but only a fool could not see how badly Trump has declined over the past few years. I have no idea if you were around when Reagan was but there were signs of dementia before his first term ended if you were willing to actually listen to what he was saying and ignore the folksy old grandpa with a gift for storytelling that so many people adored.

Even if he were 20 years younger, his decades in public service have demonstrated that if one is unable to work well with others, to collaborate, to include, to reach out to others, then it is really difficult to be effective. Bernie is only a Democrat when it is convenient for his political aspirations. He lacks the moral fortitude and leadership to inspire the formation of a third party that would more closely mirror his stated positions and hasn't been willing to join the Green Party and move it into a more sane territory (sorry, I'm a bit disillusioned because I know local Green Party members).

It doesn't matter much if he says everything I want to hear. He has demonstrated that he does not have the chops to accomplish anything. Because so far, he really hasn't accomplished much. Bernie is going to do Bernie and we've seen how much he's done over 4 decades or so of public service. Not so much, frankly.

Given the makeup of the Senate and the potential of the House to lose ground to the GOP, or even if the Senate flips and we have a majority in both houses, Bernie will have to work with others---and he can't do that very well. Why do I say that? Because past is prologue.

Why are you complaining he said he instead of she? What about zer and the other dozen pronouns people use these days? And do you apply this standard to anyone else? I haven't ever seen you do so.

There has been talk for a long time that Bernie is not particularly engaged with issues that are not built around white men's wants/needs/perspectives. He has something of a reputation of being a bit of a sexist--not the pussy grabbing kind. More like the kind that think that women's issues are not particularly pressing. And the same thing with persons of color. He's not seen as an outright bigot or racist--much more benign than that. He's just really old school in the way that a lot of 60's and 70's radicals were: it's all a white guy's perspective. It's tunnel vision and I think a bit of an inability or unwillingness to consider other perspectives and other persons POV. This is ok if you are making stump speeches or standing in front of a crowd of fanboies but it doesn't work when it comes to actually doing the work of POTUS.

My opinion is that his mindset is that of a white man who is now old. It's his perspective. It's not new or fresh just because kids today like a grumpy old grandpa of a guy saying outrageous shit.

What ourtageous shit does he say? That he's for medicare for all and a living wage? Is that outrageous to you? Is that magical ponies as Hillary put it?

Actually, that was my point: he's not saying anything outrageous. He's just saying things that go against the stereotypes that some younger people have of old folks being conservatives. He doesn't match the picture in their heads of what an old fart would say, so it's amusing and 'outrageous' when that particular old fart says it.

Not that what he says is outrageous outside of TrumpWorld.

Oh so he didn't say outrageous shit? Or you live in Trumpworld? What are you trying to say?

See above: for his fanboies, they're in love with what they see as the incongruity of an old man saying things they like instead of sounding like their conservative grandpas. Not that they've actually listened to their grandpas.

Bernie has convinced me.

Because he's an old white man. Yes. I get it.

Nope. I'm 100% certain I've paid a lot more attention to US politics than you have, just in the last week, never mind for the past 40 years or more.

However, Bernie is a non-starter for me because he's too old. POTUS is not a job for an octogenarian.

If you have a case in support of Bernie, make it.

I support 90% of what Bernie stands for, but I'm even more in support of Yang, so its not really my case to make at this point.

I'm not impressed that you support Bernie or Yang. I'd be interested in your reasons for supporting Bernie or Yang. Explicitly stated.

I will stand up for him when CNN writes a hit piece against him, or when you make groundless allegations against him due to your own personal issues.

Realizing the reality of his age and the rigors of the office of POTUS, being aware of his record as a public servant, hearing him speak and reading about him and comparing that to others, recognizing that he's embraced the persona of Lone Righteous Man so long that he is unable to work with others, even to the point of refusing to join the party whose nomination he seeks unless he wants their nomination that year all make him an extremely difficult sell, without taking into consideration the paucity of legislation he's authored and passed given his decades in office. He's great at stump speeches. We already know what a POTUS who can only do rallies for himself looks like. It's not better if it's someone on the left than it is someone on the right. He'd be a lousy POTUS.

Don't attack me personally.

I'm not attacking you personally. I'm defending against your attack.

Of Bernie? LOLOL. This is a thread about the supposed spiff between Bernie and Liz.

And you should probably grow a thicker skin if you are going to spew venom so frequently at others.

Venom?

Yes, Bernie has been saying 'these things' or most of them for a long long time. So have I and so have a lot of people of my generation.

So you have been saying the same things, yet you oppose the one guy who is running for president trying to make them happen... because you think he's an old white man?

Bernie isn't the only candidate with a progressive platform. Others also have progressive ideas and more importantly, have the will and the skill set to actually get legislation written and passed so that they could sign it into law. I'm not sure if you know how that process works in the US.

I don't think he'd be an effective POTUS based on how ineffective he's been in his decades in various elected offices. It's my opinion based on observation of Bernie and his career.

That's an entirely different point. And you may be right about this point. He may try and fail. But at least he'll try. Biden won't. Biden has been on the opposite side of most of these issues. Buttigieg won't. He's busy dining people in wine caves. Klobuchar? Who? Warren is the closest to Bernie. Yang isn't too far off (though he's off the mark on health care; he does push further for universal basic income).

Warren is pretty close to Sanders on issues and she's far more effective. Klobuchar is more effective in her role so far. Biden (who is also too old) is more effective at leadership and bringing people together than Sanders. Buttigieg who? I am sooooooooo unimpressed.

think that Bernie is delighted that a young, attractive woman is giving him attention and props.

Based on what? Now he's a womanizer? Bernie Sanders of all people? That's just hilarious.

Gawd no. I think that a lot of old men are delighted when young people look at them with admiration and hero worship. AOC is pretty and smart and she'll do far, far, far more than Sanders ever could because she is much more willing and able to work well with others. She's much more personable, much more savvy about communications and building relationships. Bernie just isn't. He just has the grumpy old man schtick down. I am really certain that if a middle aged woman were saying the same things, she wouldn't get nearly the same support from the Bernie bros. Oh, wait: We have Elizabeth Warren who is past middle age--and draws a LOT of pretty nasty ire on the internets from the Berniebros.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It would be just like the sensationalist corporate media to try to get them to fight.

Anyway, what I find fascinating about politics is how narrowly people reduce things to one or two characteristics with each characteristic being binary. White and non-White. Male and female.

Real life is multivariate and each variable (or characteristic) is most often fluid or a continuum.

So when I hear things like "the candidates are no longer diverse because they are just white" or "Bernie Sanders is just an old white male," I roll my eyes and long for the day when America will stop repeating these memes to think more flexibly about life.

Identity politics, too, is merely a small piece of politics. But let's discuss it because it's on the table.

So, first, Warren. She's 99+% White and her discussion of the fluidity of race as a social construct as well as her mistakenly thinking she's much more Native American has been heavily criticized, victimizing her from Right and Left and from racist Whites and even some minorities. She's female, obviously, and we still haven't had a sane electoral college elect one President. Surely, we could appreciate some of the diversity this adds to the group of remaining candidates.

Buttiegieg. White--so far as we know which means he's got the privilege of a White guy. But again, as we all know, he's gay. We have never had an (openly gay) President.

Yang...is that guy still in the race?

Sanders...just an old white man? He's Jewish. While in much of America, Jews now have good representation in politics, people are still killing them and racist against them. We've also never had a Jewish President. I will add, we've also never had a President who openly identifies as socialist. Of interest to the discussion forum, Sanders is not afraid to be critical of Israel and while he says he believes in a God, he shies away from organized religion. We ought to consider that type of view allied to us.

The socio-economic class upbringing is also not something even being mentioned in the discussion of diversity but most of the candidates were not born into the upper echelon of society. Different from Trump, etc...

Finally, I will link to an essay by Bernie Sanders about his Jewish identity:
https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-fight-antisemitism/

Here also is a very long article about Warren, detailing many things about her life. Her identity is far more than white woman:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/magazine/elizabeth-warren-president.html

 

[Toni]

It would be just like the sensationalist corporate media to try to get them to fight.

Anyway, what I find fascinating about politics is how narrowly people reduce things to one or two characteristics with each characteristic being binary. White and non-White. Male and female.

Real life is multivariate and each variable (or characteristic) is most often fluid or a continuum.

So when I hear things like "the candidates are no longer diverse because they are just white" or "Bernie Sanders is just an old white male," I roll my eyes and long for the day when America will stop repeating these memes to think more flexibly about life.

Identity politics, too, is merely a small piece of politics. But let's discuss it because it's on the table.

So, first, Warren. She's 99+% White and her discussion of the fluidity of race as a social construct as well as her mistakenly thinking she's much more Native American has been heavily criticized, victimizing her from Right and Left and from racist Whites and even some minorities. She's female, obviously, and we still haven't had a sane electoral college elect one President. Surely, we could appreciate some of the diversity this adds to the group of remaining candidates.

Buttiegieg. White--so far as we know which means he's got the privilege of a White guy. But again, as we all know, he's gay. We have never had an (openly gay) President.

Yang...is that guy still in the race?

Sanders...just an old white man? He's Jewish. While in much of America, Jews now have good representation in politics, people are still killing them and racist against them. We've also never had a Jewish President. I will add, we've also never had a President who openly identifies as socialist. Of interest to the discussion forum, Sanders is not afraid to be critical of Israel and while he says he believes in a God, he shies away from organized religion. We ought to consider that type of view allied to us.

The socio-economic class upbringing is also not something even being mentioned in the discussion of diversity but most of the candidates were not born into the upper echelon of society. Different from Trump, etc...

Finally, I will link to an essay by Bernie Sanders about his Jewish identity:
https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-fight-antisemitism/

I'm sorry but AFAIK Old White Guy is Bernie's brand.

I don't personally have a problem with old white guys. I'm married to a white guy who is >60 yo. My dad was an old white guy at one point. My FIL is an old white guy, even older than Bernie (and much smarter). My BILs are old white guys or at least >60 yo.

But we've only elected one person who wasn't a white guy as POTUS since we began and he was a black guy.

Maybe we could try something different?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

But we've only elected one person who wasn't a white guy as POTUS since we began and he was a black guy.

Obama was half White.

Maybe we could try something different?

A socialist Jew who distances himself from organized religion is different.

The content of the candidate's character matters to me personally more than their color, sex, ethnicity, creed, or religion: Most of the Democrats are decent and Trump is a monster.