Are Bernie and Warren finally going to clash?

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Why is it okay to talk about Cuban reparations, but black reparations is "identity politics"? Heck, the whole US v Cuba issue is centered almost exclusively on reparations.

I am so sick of people who are obsessed with women or blacks... complaining about "identity politics", because their positions are almost exclusively based on people's identities and their stereotypes of those people.

It is identity politics to attach "reparations" to anybody based solely on their race. If somebody has themselves personally been wronged, the a case for reparations may be made. But if it is being made for an entire race of people simply because of their race, regardless of their personal history or circumstance.... that's politics of identity and is proxy politics and it is fundamentally wrong.

Actually, no. This is simply not how the real world works.

In the real world (not fantasy la-la land), there are class action suits. The plaintiffs most often are categorized to reasonable expected damage levels. There are probabilities and estimates. This is because the effects of things are understood through statistical inference. Any particular individual probably was impacted by the defendant, but not necessarily. So, take for example carcinogens or something like that. The exact connection and PROOF that smoking cigarettes is what caused an individual's lung cancer is non-existent but it is likely and for the whole group, extremely likely most individuals who had lung cancer and smoked for 20 years were impacted by the chemistry of smoking cigarettes and corporations lying in marketing campaigns. It simply isn't practicable to prove in every case to prove something, even if it were it would be an extreme burden on the entire legal system and bring corporations and institutions down if for every class action suit this had to be done.

Now look at slavery reparations. It's an even worse situation because when slave owners treated humans like property they most often did not leave records. This means in modern America when a descendant of a slave tries to prove their slave ancestry, they most often can't. And whose fault is that? It's the defendants' fault that evidence is hard to come by. Even after slavery was over slaves upon freedom didn't necessarily know what to call themselves or changed names upon "freedom." Such freedom was very limited and segregated, too, up to the time of the civil rights movement. Victims are still alive. Wealth creates wealth and some generations benefited from previous. But you're also assuming that there can't be further categorization based on reasonable inferences. Why would you assume that since it isn't normally how class action suits work? I mean you can further break down categories of victims based on amount of evidence of slave ancestry, if any, amount of assets, and whatever seems to be fair.

It's not like there are not other court decisions based on identity either. Look at the establistment of Israel, various reparations toward Israel by corporations and counties. Or look at American case law of Native American tribes versus the government or various asset holders.

 

[Toni]

She is definitely very much into identity politics. It's not that she is a woman, as she is also heavily into racial identity politics. Examples: she supports "reparations" for blacks and giving Indians veto power over infrastructure projects.

Also, it is good practice that when responding to a particular point to only quote that part and not the entire post. Especially when there are images and/or the post is long. You should have deleted everything past the first three lines.

Warren is not the only person or candidate who supports reparations.

I’m sorry if my posting style/manners are not up to your high standards. I am traveling right now for a family situation and don’t have access to anything other than my phone a few minutes at a time. It’s time consuming for me to try splitting off sections to reply to. Feel free to ignore any of my posts that don’t meet your standards.

Why is it okay to talk about Cuban reparations, but black reparations is "identity politics"? Heck, the whole US v Cuba issue is centered almost exclusively on reparations.

I am so sick of people who are obsessed with women or blacks... complaining about "identity politics", because their positions are almost exclusively based on people's identities and their stereotypes of those people.

I really don’t follow what you are trying to say.

But with reference to reparations that might be paid out to African Americans: those would not be owed because of race but because of harms caused by the enslavement of ancestors and the harms that have continued to this day to African Americans whose grandparents were born in the US because they are presumably descendants of slaves in the US.

Something that I have noticed is that recent immigrants from African nations and their immediate descendants are not treated with the same level of racism as are the descendants of African slaves. Many people—not all, but many, are interested in helping (or ‘helping’) recent immigrants. It is easy to admire their determination to better thei lives by immigrating to the land of the free and home of the brave. White people can look at them and see some of the same kinds of courage and ambition as motivated their own ancestors from Europe. In African Americans who are descendants of slaves, we see our guilt, our shame, our weaknesses. Because that burden is so huge, so heavy and difficult to bear—especially since there are still scars and deep festering wounds of more recent discrimination, and because none of us were actually slave holders and precious few of us actually participated in Jim Crow, it’s easy for white people to want to believe that it’s all nothing to do with us—we aren’t responsible for the sins of our great greats—and ignore how we have not extended our hands in actual equality and brotherhood. Not when it meant giving up our place first in line. Not even if it means making us feel even a little bit bad.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why is it okay to talk about Cuban reparations, but black reparations is "identity politics"? Heck, the whole US v Cuba issue is centered almost exclusively on reparations.

I am so sick of people who are obsessed with women or blacks... complaining about "identity politics", because their positions are almost exclusively based on people's identities and their stereotypes of those people.

It is identity politics to attach "reparations" to anybody based solely on their race. If somebody has themselves personally been wronged, the a case for reparations may be made. But if it is being made for an entire race of people simply because of their race, regardless of their personal history or circumstance.... that's politics of identity and is proxy politics and it is fundamentally wrong.

Actually, no. This is simply not how the real world works.

In the real world (not fantasy la-la land), there are class action suits. The plaintiffs most often are categorized to reasonable expected damage levels. There are probabilities and estimates. This is because the effects of things are understood through statistical inference. Any particular individual probably was impacted by the defendant, but not necessarily. So, take for example carcinogens or something like that. The exact connection and PROOF that smoking cigarettes is what caused an individual's lung cancer is non-existent but it is likely and for the whole group, extremely likely most individuals who had lung cancer and smoked for 20 years were impacted by the chemistry of smoking cigarettes and corporations lying in marketing campaigns. It simply isn't practicable to prove in every case to prove something, even if it were it would be an extreme burden on the entire legal system and bring corporations and institutions down if for every class action suit this had to be done.

Now look at slavery reparations. It's an even worse situation because when slave owners treated humans like property they most often did not leave records. This means in modern America when a descendant of a slave tries to prove their slave ancestry, they most often can't. And whose fault is that? It's the defendants' fault that evidence is hard to come by. Even after slavery was over slaves upon freedom didn't necessarily know what to call themselves or changed names upon "freedom." Such freedom was very limited and segregated, too, up to the time of the civil rights movement. Victims are still alive. Wealth creates wealth and some generations benefited from previous. But you're also assuming that there can't be further categorization based on reasonable inferences. Why would you assume that since it isn't normally how class action suits work? I mean you can further break down categories of victims based on amount of evidence of slave ancestry, if any, amount of assets, and whatever seems to be fair.

It's not like there are not other court decisions based on identity either. Look at the establistment of Israel, various reparations toward Israel by corporations and counties. Or look at American case law of Native American tribes versus the government or various asset holders.

Not a great argument, unless you want to justify racism generally. That's what grouping people together by race and treating them all as one and the same is. It especially fails when the stated goal in the first place is to address racism.

I think you should be careful with the argument that we should treat all [people of race X] to a particular treatment because some [people of race X] did X or had Y done to them etc. That's the same sort of thinking the anti-black/minority racists use.

It gets even worse when you introduce the argument that race is more sociological than biological or that people can be "trans" and "identify as" another race. And those tend to be arguments made by the same people who argue for reparations.

 

[Gospel]

Why is it okay to talk about Cuban reparations, but black reparations is "identity politics"? Heck, the whole US v Cuba issue is centered almost exclusively on reparations.

I am so sick of people who are obsessed with women or blacks... complaining about "identity politics", because their positions are almost exclusively based on people's identities and their stereotypes of those people.

I really don’t follow what you are trying to say.

But with reference to reparations that might be paid out to African Americans: those would not be owed because of race but because of harms caused by the enslavement of ancestors and the harms that have continued to this day to African Americans whose grandparents were born in the US because they are presumably descendants of slaves in the US.

Something that I have noticed is that recent immigrants from African nations and their immediate descendants are not treated with the same level of racism as are the descendants of African slaves. Many people—not all, but many, are interested in helping (or ‘helping’) recent immigrants. It is easy to admire their determination to better thei lives by immigrating to the land of the free and home of the brave. White people can look at them and see some of the same kinds of courage and ambition as motivated their own ancestors from Europe. In African Americans who are descendants of slaves, we see our guilt, our shame, our weaknesses. Because that burden is so huge, so heavy and difficult to bear—especially since there are still scars and deep festering wounds of more recent discrimination, and because none of us were actually slave holders and precious few of us actually participated in Jim Crow, it’s easy for white people to want to believe that it’s all nothing to do with us—we aren’t responsible for the sins of our great greats—and ignore how we have not extended our hands in actual equality and brotherhood. Not when it meant giving up our place first in line. Not even if it means making us feel even a little bit bad.

Isn't Israel one of the most glorious results of reparations? Who doesn't love Israel?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The right-wing hates all talk of reparations... even some *cough* liberals hate the thought as well. But if you bring up Cuba... all of a sudden the demand for reparations immediately come up and the US won't formerly recognize Cuba until they are made. Cuban reparations are an American Foreign Policy demand on Cuba!

Bring it up regarding people who actually lived within the US... and it is just crazy talk.

Israel was actually one of the worst executed acts of reparations ever. Sorry you lost everything and the torture... here, have some very small globs of land. FYI, we didn't tell the neighbors about this, so they might be grumpy.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

But with reference to reparations that might be paid out to African Americans: those would not be owed because of race but because of harms caused by the enslavement of ancestors and the harms that have continued to this day to African Americans whose grandparents were born in the US because they are presumably descendants of slaves in the US.

That's the key word. Presumably. They are presumably many things.... that many of them are not. That's a problem when its turned into actions for or against them. Why should a recent black immigrant get the same "reparations" as an elderly black man who lived through Jim Crow? To the recent immigrant it isn't reparations at all. Its just free money, taken from the pool that would have been bigger otherwise for those for whom it is reparation.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The right-wing hates all talk of reparations... even some *cough* liberals hate the thought as well. But if you bring up Cuba... all of a sudden the demand for reparations immediately come up and the US won't formerly recognize Cuba until they are made. Cuban reparations are an American Foreign Policy demand on Cuba!

Bring it up regarding people who actually lived within the US... and it is just crazy talk.

What is the current relationship between Cuba and the USA? As a Canadian, I used to go there now and then and the best thing about it was the lack of Americans

 

[Toni]

But with reference to reparations that might be paid out to African Americans: those would not be owed because of race but because of harms caused by the enslavement of ancestors and the harms that have continued to this day to African Americans whose grandparents were born in the US because they are presumably descendants of slaves in the US.

That's the key word. Presumably. They are presumably many things.... that many of them are not. That's a problem when its turned into actions for or against them. Why should a recent black immigrant get the same "reparations" as an elderly black man who lived through Jim Crow? To the recent immigrant it isn't reparations at all. Its just free money, taken from the pool that would have been bigger otherwise for those for whom it is reparation.

That was exactly my point. Your claim is that reparations would be race based. I disagree. Also your assumption is that reparations would be some cash payment. That is also an assumption on your part and nothing to do with the actual reparations suggested by actual people involved.

I would also like to point out that reparations would not be based on or for only those who lived through Jim Crow. Serious racial discrimination resulting in serious harm occurred north of the Mason Dixon and continue to occur in every state and every community today. While I am aware of serious discrimination against recent immigrants from
African nations, it is usually much worse and much more pervasively targeted against descendants of slaves.

 

[Trausti]

The right-wing hates all talk of reparations... even some *cough* liberals hate the thought as well. But if you bring up Cuba... all of a sudden the demand for reparations immediately come up and the US won't formerly recognize Cuba until they are made. Cuban reparations are an American Foreign Policy demand on Cuba!

Bring it up regarding people who actually lived within the US... and it is just crazy talk.

What is the current relationship between Cuba and the USA? As a Canadian, I used to go there now and then and the best thing about it was the lack of Americans

Well your PM is Castro's love child, so natch.

 

[Trausti]

Better post before the meme gets stale.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The right-wing hates all talk of reparations... even some *cough* liberals hate the thought as well. But if you bring up Cuba... all of a sudden the demand for reparations immediately come up and the US won't formerly recognize Cuba until they are made. Cuban reparations are an American Foreign Policy demand on Cuba!

Bring it up regarding people who actually lived within the US... and it is just crazy talk.

What is the current relationship between Cuba and the USA? As a Canadian, I used to go there now and then and the best thing about it was the lack of Americans

Well your PM is Castro's love child, so natch.

It's why we all get triple the travel reward miles and the best beach chairs.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Better post before the meme gets stale.

Lmao

 

[Harry Bosch]

The right-wing hates all talk of reparations... even some *cough* liberals hate the thought as well. But if you bring up Cuba... all of a sudden the demand for reparations immediately come up and the US won't formerly recognize Cuba until they are made. Cuban reparations are an American Foreign Policy demand on Cuba!

Bring it up regarding people who actually lived within the US... and it is just crazy talk.

Israel was actually one of the worst executed acts of reparations ever. Sorry you lost everything and the torture... here, have some very small globs of land. FYI, we didn't tell the neighbors about this, so they might be grumpy.

Jimmy: I think that the right wing absolutely loves reparations! They claim they don't in order to appease their base. But if you study the Russian Bot attacks, they were very adroitly aiming their attacks in bell weather areas and targeting reparations. Reparations split the democratic party far more than the republican party.

 

[Derec]

That was exactly my point. Your claim is that reparations would be race based. I disagree.

You may disagree but they reparations, as discussed by the likes of TNC, are definitely race-based.

Also your assumption is that reparations would be some cash payment. That is also an assumption on your part and nothing to do with the actual reparations suggested by actual people involved.

If non-cash reparations count, then we have had reparations for over 50 years now, in the form of racial preferences in college and professional school admissions as well as in employment.
Medical school admissions are an especially egregious example.

Seeking even more "reparations" is just greedy.

I would also like to point out that reparations would not be based on or for only those who lived through Jim Crow. Serious racial discrimination resulting in serious harm occurred north of the Mason Dixon and continue to occur in every state and every community today. While I am aware of serious discrimination against recent immigrants from
African nations, it is usually much worse and much more pervasively targeted against descendants of slaves.

On the contrary, for the last 50-60 years, blacks have enjoyed preferential treatment in college/grad school admissions and employment.

 

[Toni]

You may disagree but they reparations, as discussed by the likes of TNC, are definitely race-based.


If non-cash reparations count, then we have had reparations for over 50 years now, in the form of racial preferences in college and professional school admissions as well as in employment.
Medical school admissions are an especially egregious example.
View attachment 25836
Seeking even more "reparations" is just greedy.

I would also like to point out that reparations would not be based on or for only those who lived through Jim Crow. Serious racial discrimination resulting in serious harm occurred north of the Mason Dixon and continue to occur in every state and every community today. While I am aware of serious discrimination against recent immigrants from
African nations, it is usually much worse and much more pervasively targeted against descendants of slaves.

On the contrary, for the last 50-60 years, blacks have enjoyed preferential treatment in college/grad school admissions and employment.

You are simply and completely incorrect.

 

[Derec]

Isn't Israel one of the most glorious results of reparations?

Zionist movement, which sought to restore Israel, started in the 19th century.

Who doesn't love Israel?

Leftists generally hate it.

 

[Derec]

You are simply and completely incorrect.

I am not. Look at the chart. There is a great deal of discrimination in favor of black (and hispanic) students.

 

[Derec]

But with reference to reparations that might be paid out to African Americans: those would not be owed because of race but because of harms caused by the enslavement of ancestors and the harms that have continued to this day to African Americans whose grandparents were born in the US because they are presumably descendants of slaves in the US.

So how many generations should this go? My ancestral country was brutally occupied by Ottoman Turks in the 14th through 19th centuries. So it lasted much longer than American slavery and ended around the same time. Why does TNC deserve a reparations check from America, but I don't deserve one from Turkey? Just because TNC is black and I am white and many Turks are "brown" and thus designated victims and not perpetrators?
Many people's ancestors were victims of this or that atrocity in history. Why are black people so special that they can claim reparations for atrocities suffered by some of their ancestors that long ago?

And how would you adjudicate reparations for multiple lines of ancestry. Shouldn't Obama, who is a descendant of Kansas slave-owners but not of slaves, be a payer, and not a recipient? What about Obama's kids, who have both ancestries? Is it a wash? What about people who trace their ancestry to Sally Hemmings AND Thomas Jefferson?
Should somebody who has 30% post-slavery African ancestry get less reparations than somebody who has 10% post-slavery African ancestry? How should pedigree collapse (which is inevitable going back that far) be considered, if at all? I.e. should total number of ancestors who were slaves count or total number of unique ancestors who were slaves.
Those are complicated questions, and probably impossible to resolve satisfactorily. Thus if any formal reparation law is enacted, it will most likely use the same 'one drop rule' standard as current informal reparations like racial preferences (aka "affirmative action") use.

Something that I have noticed is that recent immigrants from African nations and their immediate descendants are not treated with the same level of racism as are the descendants of African slaves.

Something that I have noticed is that recent black immigrants and black Americans who are descendants of African slaves share one thing in common - race.
If they are treated differently, then I would say that is not likely due to racism, a grossly overused term anyway, but something else. Most likely culture.

In African Americans who are descendants of slaves, we see our guilt, our shame, our weaknesses.

Speak for yourself! This idiotic "white guilt" that is endemic on the Left is a form of self-hating racism really.

it’s easy for white people to want to believe that it’s all nothing to do with us

It certainly has nothing to do with me. And I do not see why I should pay so that a black student gets tuition at a private black college for free, or even somebody like TNC gets a check.

we aren’t responsible for the sins of our great greats

No you are not.

ignore how we have not extended our hands in actual equality and brotherhood. Not when it meant giving up our place first in line. Not even if it means making us feel even a little bit bad.

Equality and brotherhood does not mean taking from whites because of our race and giving it to blacks, including rich blacks like TNC. That would be the exact opposite - racism, and it would foment racial resentment, not brotherhood.
I think the left is pushing us in the exactly wrong direction in race relations.

TL/DR: I will support TNC getting reparations when Erdogan sends me a check to compensate me for 500 years of Ottoman occupation. Fair is fair.

 

[Derec]

In the real world (not fantasy la-la land), there are class action suits. The plaintiffs most often are categorized to reasonable expected damage levels. There are probabilities and estimates. This is because the effects of things are understood through statistical inference. Any particular individual probably was impacted by the defendant, but not necessarily. So, take for example carcinogens or something like that. The exact connection and PROOF that smoking cigarettes is what caused an individual's lung cancer is non-existent but it is likely and for the whole group, extremely likely most individuals who had lung cancer and smoked for 20 years were impacted by the chemistry of smoking cigarettes and corporations lying in marketing campaigns. It simply isn't practicable to prove in every case to prove something, even if it were it would be an extreme burden on the entire legal system and bring corporations and institutions down if for every class action suit this had to be done.

If your great-great-grandfather smoked, can you still sue?

Now look at slavery reparations. It's an even worse situation because when slave owners treated humans like property they most often did not leave records. This means in modern America when a descendant of a slave tries to prove their slave ancestry, they most often can't.

So anybody considered black (via "one drop rule") should get reparations? Even Obama, who is descendant of slave owners but not of any American slaves? Just because of his hue?

And whose fault is that?

It's not about fault, it's realizing that the crime occurred a long time ago and both the perpetrators and victims have long since shuffled off the mortal coil and joined the bleeding choir invisible!

It's the defendants' fault that evidence is hard to come by.

The real defendants are pining for the fjords. As are the real victims. It is their great-great-great-grandchildren want to cash in on their suffering. But everybody has some ancestors who were victims of atrocities at some point in history. My ancestors were victims of brutal Ottoman Turk occupation, which ended decades after the end of the American slavery (Turks were finally driven off only in 1913) but the occupation started over a century earlier (1389). So should I not be getting reparations from Turkey by the same logic?

and whatever seems to be fair.

What seems fair? That is such a vague criterion. Not that class action lawsuits (and torts in general) in US are not a fucking disaster anyway, often based on nothing more than the whim of 6 or 12 random people.

It's not like there are not other court decisions based on identity either. Look at the establistment of Israel, various reparations toward Israel by corporations and counties. Or look at American case law of Native American tribes versus the government or various asset holders.

When Israel was created (1948), the Holocaust (1942-1945) was only a few years ago. Not 160 fucking years ago!

 

[Derec]

Why is it okay to talk about Cuban reparations,

What Cuban reparations? If you mean compensating actual landowners whose actual possessions were stolen by the Castro regime, how is that comparable to racial reparations?

I am so sick of people who are obsessed with women or blacks... complaining about "identity politics", because their positions are almost exclusively based on people's identities and their stereotypes of those people.

It is identity politicians like Warren who are basing everything on race and gender.