Are Bernie and Warren finally going to clash?

[Derec]

Agree to disagree re: Bernie and Hillary qualifications. Sanders has been around a long time and he hasn’t accomplished much, IMO.

And what has Hillary accomplished in Senate that was so "exceptional"? She wasn't even in any leadership positions.

My big problems with Bernie are his age/health. It’s a serious concern or should be.

Yes, it definitely should and it definitely is.
Not only for the obvious reasons, but also because it made him slow down mentally and made him susceptible to "staff infection" - him being too dependent on his staffers' and surrogates' opinions and positions. Compared with Bernie Classic, New Bernie is a far less mavericky and a far more a conventional leftist campaign including more emphasis on identity politics, extreme environmentalism (that hurts regular workers in the energy sector and everybody who has to pay attention to their energy budget, for example gas heating costs or gasoline prices) and excessive immigration, especially illegal immigration (which also hurts workers by depressing wages).

I honestly don’t like his chances or Biden’s of surviving a full term with anything resembling good health for their ages.

I agree. Especially Bernie with his heart attack.

I also think Warren is too old but she seems much more vigorous and energetic.

She seems energetic now, but she would still be the oldest president ever elected. People often slow down considerably through their 70s. And she'd be 71 and a half at inauguration.

And she’s good at working with people,

The problem I have with her are her positions. She supports reparations. She supports giving Indians de-facto veto power over any infrastructure projects anywhere close to their reservations. She also has a ridiculous plan to forgive student loans up to $50k. Why should taxpayers who maybe went to affordable state university and paid off or are paying off their student loans subsidize people making $99k (almost twice the median household income) who raked up $50k in student loans at some fancy private college? The limits should be slashed at least by a factor of two. And the worst thing is that she plans to use an executive order for this huge giveaway instead of going through Congress.

the other major priblem I have with Bernie who is far too in love with his Him Against The World stance to be very effective as POTUS—domestically or internationally.

That is also what makes him so popular to many. Note that Trump ran the same way before he proved to be loyal Republican team player on most important issues. That certainly helped him win.

He is a very good gadfly.

Indeed he is.

 

[laughing dog]

I think an empty stage could defeat Trump. This has to be about more than defeating Trump if you want your country to more forward.

We thought an empty stage could defeat Trump last time.

It could have. You ran one of the very few who could manage a loss of the presidency to Trump. Both Trump and Hillary had remarkably negative favourability ratings. She was a worse choice than a random unknown.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Sanders would have done better against Trump.

 

[Derec]

There's experience and there's realizing you've maxed out your potential. I recognized this in Bernie debating Hillary. He had no answer for some questions so he time and again circled around to big banks, one percent, Wall Street.

One could argue that Hillary had maxed out her potential too. Not for nothing has SecState been a terminal political position for over 100 years. Last SecState who went to become president was James Buchanan. In 1856! And same can be said for all the septuagenarians running in 2016. One of them will probably win the nomination and presidency, but does anybody really think any one of them is the best United States can offer for president? Really?

Finally, Sanders had a confusing and somewhat incoherent exchange on economics and immigration. He began by equivocating on whether immigration has the effect of depressing wages for Americans already here, seeming to contradict statements he made on Lou Dobbs’s TV program in 2007, which Sanders said was “250 years ago.” The conversation continued, with the editorial board’s annotations in brackets:

As I said before, Bernie20, probably due to his "staff infection", has been pivoting toward a more doctrinaire leftist position, which includes de-facto open borders. He is trying to pivot while at the same time staying planted. That can not work well. If he was younger, I'd think he'd have resisted the "staff infection" better.

 

[Derec]

There is no evidence whatsoever that Sanders would have done better against Trump.

He had outperformed Hillary in many polls matching them two against Trump. Example:

 

[Toni]

There is no evidence whatsoever that Sanders would have done better against Trump.

He had outperformed Hillary in many polls matching them two against Trump. Example:
View attachment 25658

Other polls had Hillary trouncing Trump so.....point?

 

[Toni]

And what has Hillary accomplished in Senate that was so "exceptional"? She wasn't even in any leadership positions.


Yes, it definitely should and it definitely is.
Not only for the obvious reasons, but also because it made him slow down mentally and made him susceptible to "staff infection" - him being too dependent on his staffers' and surrogates' opinions and positions. Compared with Bernie Classic, New Bernie is a far less mavericky and a far more a conventional leftist campaign including more emphasis on identity politics, extreme environmentalism (that hurts regular workers in the energy sector and everybody who has to pay attention to their energy budget, for example gas heating costs or gasoline prices) and excessive immigration, especially illegal immigration (which also hurts workers by depressing wages).

I honestly don’t like his chances or Biden’s of surviving a full term with anything resembling good health for their ages.

I agree. Especially Bernie with his heart attack.

I also think Warren is too old but she seems much more vigorous and energetic.

She seems energetic now, but she would still be the oldest president ever elected. People often slow down considerably through their 70s. And she'd be 71 and a half at inauguration.

And she’s good at working with people,

The problem I have with her are her positions. She supports reparations. She supports giving Indians de-facto veto power over any infrastructure projects anywhere close to their reservations. She also has a ridiculous plan to forgive student loans up to $50k. Why should taxpayers who maybe went to affordable state university and paid off or are paying off their student loans subsidize people making $99k (almost twice the median household income) who raked up $50k in student loans at some fancy private college? The limits should be slashed at least by a factor of two. And the worst thing is that she plans to use an executive order for this huge giveaway instead of going through Congress.

the other major priblem I have with Bernie who is far too in love with his Him Against The World stance to be very effective as POTUS—domestically or internationally.

That is also what makes him so popular to many. Note that Trump ran the same way before he proved to be loyal Republican team player on most important issues. That certainly helped him win.

He is a very good gadfly.

Indeed he is.

Don’t have time to address point by point but wanted to say that I appreciate you drawing yet another comparison between Sanders and Trump. Very apt.

 

[Derec]

I'm sorry that you are misinformed. There are a lot of reasons that Hillary lost the electoral vote--she won the popular vote. Some of the fault was with her campaign and some of it was with a very successful campaign of disinformation. A lot of people were like me: Ready to vote for her but she was never my ideal candidate. I never cared much for Bill Clinton and was very wary of Hillary. But she proved herself to be extremely effective and well respected in her roles in the Senate and as Sec of State.

What were some of Hillary's accomplishments in Senate? Or as SecState, other than getting many frequent flyer miles?

Bernie isn't inspirational to me. To me, he represents a self-identified maverick who wants to exploit the system for his own glorification.

What exactly do you think is wrong with being a maverick? Why do you think he is in for self-gratification? I disagree with him on most things, but he does seem sincere about his core positions.

In fact, I wish Bernie20 was more of a maverick!

I find Warren inspirational. Also Booker, Klobuchar and Harris.

The last three had very lackluster campaigns. Booker and Harris are already out, and Mad Hatter is hanging by a thread.

It's one of the reasons I am happy to support more middle of the road candidates and regret that Harris and Booker dropped out.

I think Harris and Booker made the same mistake. They are both moderates who tried to pivot to the left because they thought the moderate lane was blocked by Biden. But by not staying true to themselves, their campaigns were hollow. Klobuchar at least has not fallen prey to that temptation, which is why I think she is still in the debates at all. Whether that will save her in Iowa remains to be seen, but probably not. There are a maximum of four, and more likely three, tickets out of Iowa. And Klobuchar is unlikely to break into top 4, and it is almost impossible for her to make top 3.

Both irrelevant now, but I agree Booker was one of the better ones, though his voting record isn't as great as the image he projected on the debate stage.

Kind of what I was saying, but without value judgments of which version of Booker is "better".

Harris's record as prosecutor has been largely misrepresented. Tulsi shouldn't throw stones. AFAIK, she only deals in falsehoods.

How was it misrepresented?

In any case, she should have stood by who she is, not try to pretend she was more progressive than she was. What turned me off her was her support for FOSTA/SESTA, a prohibitionist legislation that made sex workers less safe. She then claimed to have changed her position to favoring decriminalization of sex work, but without renouncing FOSTA/SESTA. It is also not 100% clear she means true decriminalization or rather the counterproductive and sexist Swedish model.

Sorry if you've missed it but I've repeatedly said who I like.

T(h)in Lizzy?

 

[Derec]

Don’t have time to address point by point but wanted to say that I appreciate you drawing yet another comparison between Sanders and Trump. Very apt.

The comparison was not meant to be an insult. It only went as far as saying that both are outside their parties' establishment/mainstream. Sanders is not even officially part of the Democratic Party. Can't be more of an outsider than that.

Even if you don't want to respond to everything, at least do explain to me why you think that Hillary's qualifications were "exceptional". 8 years in Senate (no leadership positions) and 4 years as SecState is a middling resume, not even in the top two quintiles. Hardly "exceptional".

 

[Derec]

Would you Bernie haters show up to vote for him against Trump? Or will you stay home?

I don't hate Bernie. I'm not a vindictive adolescent, so I'd hold my nose and vote for him if I had to.

Unless his running mate is Tulsi. In which case, I'd immigrate. I honestly wouldn't expect Sanders to finish his first term.

You'd leave the USA if Bernie/Tulsi were up against Trump in the election? Really? I ask because so many Americans make this claim every election cycle, and we see so few actually show up at our frozen border.

That's because when you die in Canada, you die in real life!

 

[Derec]

Other polls had Hillary trouncing Trump so.....point?

How many polls showed Hillary outperform Bernie against Trump? Especially in key mid-Western states that she did so poorly in?

 

[Toni]

Don’t have time to address point by point but wanted to say that I appreciate you drawing yet another comparison between Sanders and Trump. Very apt.

The comparison was not meant to be an insult. It only went as far as saying that both are outside their parties' establishment/mainstream. Sanders is not even officially part of the Democratic Party. Can't be more of an outsider than that.

Even if you don't want to respond to everything, at least do explain to me why you think that Hillary's qualifications were "exceptional". 8 years in Senate (no leadership positions) and 4 years as SecState is a middling resume, not even in the top two quintiles. Hardly "exceptional".

Sanders joined the party again in 2019. He’ll quit next year.

I don’t care if your intention was to insult but you didn’t do anything to dig yourself out of it here.

Trump and Sanders are both outside their putative parties, although each holds a membership of convenience. I see that as a character flaw , although the least of Trump’s.

They genuinely are simply the flip side of the same coin. The rabidity of their supporters is also quite similar.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The problem I have with her are her positions. She supports reparations. She supports giving Indians de-facto veto power over any infrastructure projects anywhere close to their reservations. She also has a ridiculous plan to forgive student loans up to $50k. Why should taxpayers who maybe went to affordable state university and paid off or are paying off their student loans subsidize people making $99k (almost twice the median household income) who raked up $50k in student loans at some fancy private college? The limits should be slashed at least by a factor of two. And the worst thing is that she plans to use an executive order for this huge giveaway instead of going through Congress.

She's also got a rather unique issues of electability specifically against Trump following the whole "pocohontas" thing. Fair or not, that hurt her and will hold her down when up against him in a way that it wouldn't the other candidates.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It could have. You ran one of the very few who could manage a loss of the presidency to Trump. Both Trump and Hillary had remarkably negative favourability ratings. She was a worse choice than a random unknown.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Sanders would have done better against Trump.

I think a random person picked of the street would have done better against Trump. Hillary ran a spectacularly poor campaign and was already rather uniquely maligned by conservative and independent voters that Obama managed to get the votes of.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Trump and Sanders are both outside their putative parties, although each holds a membership of convenience. I see that as a character flaw , although the least of Trump’s.

I find this especially interesting. I've seen others raise this same point. There seems to be some sort of "he's not part of our team!" sort of tribalism to this. The fact though is that both Bernie and Trump ran with their respective parties because that's the way your country has things set up for elections. In so many ways you've allowed these two parties to entrench a two party system (it isn't just the first past he post voting - though that really should be reconsidered).

 

[Derec]

I find this especially interesting. I've seen others raise this same point. There seems to be some sort of "he's not part of our team!" sort of tribalism to this.

Yes, I think that's exactly what it is.

The fact though is that both Bernie and Trump ran with their respective parties because that's the way your country has things set up for elections. In so many ways you've allowed these two parties to entrench a two party system (it isn't just the first past he post voting - though that really should be reconsidered).

I agree. US moving to proportional representation in Congress, combined with the presidential system (i.e. not parliamentary system where head of government is elected by the parliament) would be very interesting. The president would almost never have the situation where his party controlled Congress but at the same time there would almost never be the case where a single party could block legislation/approvals in Congress. Unlike the parliamentary system, there would be no need for a coalition government but temporary coalitions could be formed for and against any legislative matter or appointment. It would remove gridlock without Congress being a rubber stamp body, which is the two extremes US system is oscillating between.

 

[Derec]

Trump and Sanders are both outside their putative parties, although each holds a membership of convenience. I see that as a character flaw , although the least of Trump’s.

I do not think not being beholden to a rigid and restrictive two-party structure is a character flaw. That both enjoy a great deal of popularity in the electorate is an indication that many regular people are also sick of the restrictive two party structure as well.

By the way, as far as Bernie v. Warren and the recent "#CNNisTrash" debate are concerned:


Elizabeth Warren is like school in Summer.

No class!

 

[Derec]

She's also got a rather unique issues of electability specifically against Trump following the whole "pocohontas" thing. Fair or not, that hurt her and will hold her down when up against him in a way that it wouldn't the other candidates.

Just saw this...

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

By the way, as far as Bernie v. Warren and the recent "#CNNisTrash" debate are concerned:
View attachment 25662

Elizabeth Warren is like school in Summer.

No class!

Sums it up very well. And I remember when progressives were trying to draft Warren in 2015. She wouldn't run. Sanders did. So they met him and discovered he's even better aligned with progressive values than she is, and moved on to supporting him. They noticed when she didn't support him in 2016, as he was up against corporate democrat Hillary. Now Warren's trying to cry foul about it all? Bernie Bros and Sisters indeed.

The truly hilarious part of Warren refusing the hand shake clip above is Steyer. He's just this guy who comes along to exchange plesantries after the debate as he just did with Biden and Buttigieg a second earlier, and he's very uncomfortable to witness this between Warren and Bernie LMAO Look at his eyes during the clip.

This is the most entertaining Steyer thing since he started his campaign.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

She's also got a rather unique issues of electability specifically against Trump following the whole "pocohontas" thing. Fair or not, that hurt her and will hold her down when up against him in a way that it wouldn't the other candidates.

Just saw this...
View attachment 25663

I don't think any of the Democrat candidates will bring this up, but Trump will. And we have no idea how the public will react to it when he does again. It definitely landed the first time, especially since she leaned into it rather than away from it and took the DNA test only to prove she's whiter than most people are. Stories about the "Pow Wow Chow" cooking recipe and the school using her status as a "minority" will come back again to haunt her. It isn't her gender that is her barrier to electability against Trump. Its this.

 

[repoman]

Is the ground being laid for discussion of his 1972 writings about women?