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Are there non-Christian religions where ALL nonbelievers suffer eternally?

hylidae said:
One more thing: don't fucking put words in my mouth. No, someone is not immoral for rejecting my view. They are immoral if they are more concerned with escaping a psychopathic boogey man they're not sure even exists than with questioning what might actually be moral and humane for living, breathing, suffering human beings.
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You don't seem to understand the new thread. It is NOT about someone "they're not sure even exists". It is about a situation where the being DEFINITELY exists and the eternal suffering also definitely exists.

more concerned with escaping a psychopathic boogey man they're not sure even exists than with questioning what might actually be moral and humane for living, breathing, suffering human beings
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Things like Kohlberg concern "what might actually be moral and humane for living, breathing, suffering human beings". I'm just talking about a thought experiment for a few minutes.

BTW there are/were evil governments where people that didn't like them just obeyed them out of fear. There have even been leaders that claimed to be a god and got people to worship them. And many did out of fear. So even if my "ideology, at its core, is one of the most immoral ever to exist" then it has been somewhat common throughout history.

....more concerned with escaping a psychopathic boogey man they're not sure even exists...
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Like I've said a few times I haven't even tried praying to God seriously so I'm not that "concerned" about escaping him. I'm just thinking about it hypothetically.
 
hylidae
So which is worse - to fear and follow the ultimate evil monster because he threatens (and will DEFINITELY deliver) eternal extreme torture or to be that monster and feel the pleasure of receiving fearful worship and making people suffer immensely....

Remember you said my "ideology, at its core, is one of the most immoral ever to exist". Is that alternative much worse? I think it is FAR worse.

It is a bit like this - say there is an abusive husband and the wife gets beaten every now and then. If she is too scared to leave him or stand up to him is she "immoral"? Is the husband more immoral?
 
Your equating anything I said with getting pleasure from others' suffering is the stupidest strawman I've ever heard, and tells me everything I need to know about you, namely that you are not worth talking to.
 
hylidae said:
Your equating anything I said with getting pleasure from others' suffering is the stupidest strawman I've ever heard,
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You do realise that there exist people that do get pleasure from other's suffering? I'm just saying their ideology is worse (despite you saying that my ideology is about the worst that exists). I'm not saying that my ideology equates with theirs - that is my point!

I think we had a misunderstanding.... I'd like to be on speaking terms with you. Maybe you have high morals but just don't like associating with certain people.

BTW you're not too concerned about suffering due to a possible evil god but you seem to think the suffering I bring you isn't worth it.
 
hylidae wrote:
"Your ideology, at its core, is one of the most immoral ever to exist"

http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/hell-fire.htm

During America 's "Great Awakening" the popular hymn writer, Isaac Watts (1674-1748), even set Christians' feet to tapping with this crisp little verse:
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.
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I think there are FAR more immoral ideologies than mine.... like people feeling pleasure from the suffering of others - what about them even *personally* inflicting the suffering... e.g. personally pulling their nails out or skinning them alive or whatever as they scream in agony. Since you were saying "Your ideology, at its core, is one of the most immoral ever to exist" and I was also talking about the most immoral ideologies you thought I was saying you thought I got pleasure from the suffering of others.

But I don't think you think that.

Well thanks for educating me about other religions such as Islam.
 
excreationist said:
I mean if I asked this messageboard I bet a lot of them would agree that Hitler would receive some of the biggest punishments.
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In the afterlife?
Why?
Punishment is for improvement.
No matter Hitler's ills and crimes, he's not in a position to do any harm, not anymore. What would the punishment accomplish?
Hell's described as eternal punishment for a finite amount of crime. No chance to regret, to repent, to be forgiven, to attempt to live again and show that you've changed.

Punishment is kinda worthless in that sense.
Blind, unthinking revenge? That's all it is.

When i was a believer, i figured that the big message of Christainity is redemption. Second chances. Learning your mistakes and living anew.
I couldn't understand why that message expired at death.
So i figured the real test of one's religious dedication was that we could not be happy in Heaven knowing even one soul was suffering in Hell. The Test, i became convinced, was only passed by choosing to give up one's salvation in order to take someone's place in Hell. I'd even take Hitler's place, if he was the only one down there.

I still would. It's just now, to me, it's a thought experiment. Not an afterlife action plan. And i would do it out of compassion for Hitler, not any sort of sacrifice to a god.

Hell is SUCH a fucked up idea. Some of the lists of crimes and sins that will end up with a relatively innocent person are criminal in themselves.

I've often thought that the people who wrote up the rules in Leviticus probably had OCD, but the persons who created and spread the ideas of Hell are sadistic sociopaths with severe personal problems. I can't really take the idea seriously, so it seems to me that Pascal's Wager is more of a straight line to any truly intelligent being. Not a threat.

- - - Updated - - -

It appears that i must spread some rep around befor giving it to hylidae again.
Well, dammit all to hell.
 
excreationist said:
I don't get pleasure if others physically suffer like many do. What I'm saying is that if eternal extreme suffering was the DEFINITE punishment for rejecting God, I wouldn't reject God. If a swift death was the only punishment (but not extreme torture) for rejecting an evil government I think there'd be a good chance I'd reject them since I'm not afraid of a swift death. You think that ideology "is one of the most immoral ever to exist"?!


I don't think people who reject God are immoral...

I said "Yes it sounds like you'd want to join Satan. I'm not saying that is a stupid decision in fact I consider it a more courageous act than what Jesus supposedly did."

I guess you're not necessarily a lover of Satan, but by rejecting God as well, you'd be on the same side. I considered it one of the "ultimate levels of sticking to moral principles".

I am partly supporting what you were saying - "I'm happy to burn in hell if it means that I spent this life defying such inhumane stupidity"

So why is my ideology "one of the most immoral ever to exist"? I thought someone who rejects your choice to be more immoral in your view!
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The problem for you is you are speaking in terms of a paradigm we consider a complete fantasy.


Heaven, hell, and Satan. To us on the order of Charlie Brown believing in The Great Pumpkin.


In terms of morality the problem we have is the condemnation of behavior Christians deemed biblical wrongcompared with the overall historical group behavior of Christians up trough today.


The physical brutalizing of homosexualsin Nigeria is being directly supported by American Christiansincluding some of our congress people. It was only a few generationsback when the physical brutalizing of homosexuals occurred in the USAunder assumed Biblical authority.




As a group Christians have absolutelyno demonstrated moral high ground other than claiming to be moralagents of the one and only Abrahamic god.
 
Almost as bad as hell are the mindless platitudes that many otherwise intelligent folk use to rationalize it, things like:

God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves.

God is too much of a gentleman to force anyone to love him.

Those in hell are only there because they chose to be there.

Ironically, hell seems to bring out the worst in the "saved"
 
No Hell in Hinduism - Thank God. God Rama is not a Torturer - God Rama does not beat, whip, hit, rape, sodomize, burn skin nor break legs. God Sri Rama is not a Torturer. period.
 
Keith&Co. said:
In the afterlife?
Why?
Punishment is for improvement.
No matter Hitler's ills and crimes, he's not in a position to do any harm, not anymore. What would the punishment accomplish?
Hell's described as eternal punishment for a finite amount of crime. No chance to regret, to repent, to be forgiven, to attempt to live again and show that you've changed.

Punishment is kinda worthless in that sense.
Blind, unthinking revenge? That's all it is.

When i was a believer, i figured that the big message of Christainity is redemption. Second chances. Learning your mistakes and living anew.
I couldn't understand why that message expired at death.
So i figured the real test of one's religious dedication was that we could not be happy in Heaven knowing even one soul was suffering in Hell. The Test, i became convinced, was only passed by choosing to give up one's salvation in order to take someone's place in Hell. I'd even take Hitler's place, if he was the only one down there.

I still would. It's just now, to me, it's a thought experiment. Not an afterlife action plan. And i would do it out of compassion for Hitler, not any sort of sacrifice to a god.

Hell is SUCH a fucked up idea. Some of the lists of crimes and sins that will end up with a relatively innocent person are criminal in themselves.

I've often thought that the people who wrote up the rules in Leviticus probably had OCD, but the persons who created and spread the ideas of Hell are sadistic sociopaths with severe personal problems. I can't really take the idea seriously, so it seems to me that Pascal's Wager is more of a straight line to any truly intelligent being. Not a threat.

- - - Updated - - -

It appears that i must spread some rep around befor giving it to hylidae again.
Well, dammit all to hell.
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That is where the idea of Reincarnation shows its true power - while the christian/muslim is down on his knees, begging for mercy crying croc tears of repentence, the Hindu gets to stand Tall and proud, his head held high, acknowledge one's mistakes, come back and let us do the right thing. People mistakenly believe that we get punished in the next life for wrongdoing of the past, that is not true, we simply get a 2nd chance to set things right & that is not forced either

The idea of a Hell has always bothered me & i wondered just the same as you did - how is inflicting pain on the criminal benefit the victim? How is that justice? it's not, it is but vengence. In the past there was little law & order - it is not like today when you are in trouble and you can call 911 & hope the polics rushes to your aid & even now we know lots of innocents suffer at the hands of criminals - can we imagine how bad it was a few thousand years ago? Naturally the victims hopes that some super being would punish the wrongdoers - make them suffer - enter the idea of Hell - the fact that we still hold on to these primitive and backward ideas is the reason why things are so messed up today

Another thing that alwasy bothered me was the nice easy promise that God is so nice, just repent & he will gladly forgive and off you go enjoy heaven. What happened to the victim? Where is the victim's voice in this? The criminal and judge came to a nice agreement? The judge generously decided that the criminal committed no wrong - off he goes to enjoy his life? Problem with asking forgiveness from the victim is that the victim may not be in such a generous mood - he or she would naturally ask for compensation - if a criminal robbed a victim & later repented, well unlike God who will say off you go, the victim will ask for the money back that was robbed + interest! The bummer! These cheap religions give people an easy way out, sneak out the back door, cheating the victim and their creditors

Reincarnation will not let you do that - you made a mess, YOU clean it up. It is our debt, we need to clear it - not ask God to clear it for us. Asking for forgiveness from God is a big no-no in Hinduism - only one person is qualified to forgive & that is the victim & no other
 
"I mean if I asked this messageboard I bet a lot of them would agree that Hitler would receive some of the biggest punishments."
Keith&Co. said:
In the afterlife?
Why?
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Because he is seen by many as an evil monster.... don't you believe me? Do you think since he thought he was doing God's will he doesn't deserve a great punishment?

Punishment is for improvement.
No matter Hitler's ills and crimes, he's not in a position to do any harm, not anymore. What would the punishment accomplish?
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The fear of hell could discourage crimes - in the same way that jail and the death penalty can discourage crimes to some extent.

Hell's described as eternal punishment for a finite amount of crime. No chance to regret, to repent, to be forgiven, to attempt to live again and show that you've changed.

Punishment is kinda worthless in that sense.
Blind, unthinking revenge? That's all it is.
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You've answered your own question - it would accomplish revenge.
 
excreationist said:
Because he is seen by many as an evil monster.... don't you believe me? Do you think since he thought he was doing God's will he doesn't deserve a great punishment?
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He was also seen as a great leader by many. Perhaps the point is that hell is such a nebulous concept that Christianity can't agree about the nature of it, whether or not it exists, who goes there and who doesn't, etc. The idea of heaven and hell is pretty binary so there must be some arbitrary cut-off point that if you fall down narrowly one side of the line it's eternal torment but step narrowly back over the line and it's eternal bliss.

A horrible arbitrary concept that no two sects of Christianity can agree on.

If you wanted to become a Christian in order to avoid hell you'd have to pick some arbitrary sect of Christianity and their arbitrary set of rules for how to avoid it and that's like entering the lottery and hoping to win the jackpot that you don't even believe exists in the first place.

In fact, it's even worse. A better analogy would be buying tickets for a lottery where the lottery organisers tell you that if you believe you will win a prize, then you'll win a prize. You don't believe the prize exists but you somehow (I don't think this is possible) deliberately delude yourself into thinking you'll win the lottery because you think there's a tiny slim chance that the lottery organisers are right. Of course, the organisers of other lotteries tell you that they in fact have the jackpot and believing in the first lottery's jackpot will actually win you a booby prize and you need to believe in their jackpot to win it. Turns out there's dozens of lotteries all trying to scam you with the same deal and you're deciding to delude yourself into believing in the prize of the most popular lottery because despite the fact that the whole concept is idiotic on the face of it, you want that prize even though you know it's extremely doubtful that any of the lotteries have any jackpot to win.

The fear of hell could discourage crimes - in the same way that jail and the death penalty can discourage crimes to some extent.
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The idea of heaven can encourage crimes. Jihadists and 72 virgins in paradise and all that. Just look at the behaviour of religious tyrants and bigots who think they're on God's good list.

Some of the worst people are those most convinced that they're in God's good graces.
 
excreationist said:
"I mean if I asked this messageboard I bet a lot of them would agree that Hitler would receive some of the biggest punishments."

because he is seen by many as an evil monster.... don't you believe me? Do you think since he thought he was doing God's will he doesn't deserve a great punishment?The fear of hell could discourage crimes - in the same way that jail and the death penalty can discourage crimes to some extent.
You've answered your own question - it would accomplish revenge.
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Hitler by himself did not kill 6 million jews - he had plenty of WILLING help - where is this help coming from? Jews have been hated thru the centuries - Hitler was just the latest manifestation that allowed this hate to run looose - by focusing the attention on Hitler and his symbol, the christian religion wants to divert attention from its own culpability in the mass killing.

As for punishment, how exactly does it benefit the victims to know that Hitler is suffering? Will that bring back their loved ones? We talk about forgiveness and yet, again is it so the religions gets off the hook by constantly focusing the attention on Hitler?

FYI - No Hell in Hinduism - so a person like Hitler cannot go to Hell even if we wanted to send him there
 
Archimedes said:
He was also seen as a great leader by many.
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I agree that Hitler was a great leader too... but I can see why many people think he was evil. If he was still alive I suspect he would be punished for war "crimes".

....The idea of heaven and hell is pretty binary so there must be some arbitrary cut-off point that if you fall down narrowly one side of the line it's eternal torment but step narrowly back over the line and it's eternal bliss....
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Apparently it involves whether you accepted the gift of Jesus's salvation properly or not.

In fact, it's even worse. A better analogy would be buying tickets for a lottery where the lottery organisers tell you that if you believe you will win a prize, then you'll win a prize.
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My sister is in a similar situation. She believes that if she is convinced she is healed of her years-long illness she will be healed - she also believes that Jesus partly died on the cross to heal people of their illnesses. (see Isaiah 53:5 - but I think it means "forgiven" not "healed")

The idea of heaven can encourage crimes. Jihadists and 72 virgins in paradise and all that. Just look at the behaviour of religious tyrants and bigots who think they're on God's good list.
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If Allah is the true God than maybe they aren't crimes in the same way that God commanded his people to kill a lot of other people in the Old Testament.
 
Ramaraksha said:
Hitler by himself did not kill 6 million jews - he had plenty of WILLING help
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That's similar to how I was saying somewhere that God apparently killed about 2 million people in the Bible - but a lot of those would be due to God's armies killing those people.

....As for punishment, how exactly does it benefit the victims to know that Hitler is suffering? Will that bring back their loved ones?
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It is the same with the earthly punishment for murderers.... it won't bring back their loved ones either.

We talk about forgiveness and yet, again is it so the religions gets off the hook by constantly focusing the attention on Hitler?
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Well apparently God would completely forgive Hitler if he repents...
 
excreationist said:
Apparently it involves whether you accepted the gift of Jesus's salvation properly or not.
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According to some. And what's the "proper" way of accepting Jesus's salvation?

Some say that good people of non-Christian faith get saved. Some say that salvation is by God's graces and you've been predestined to be saved or not regardless of what you say or do or believe. Some Christians say this. Some say that. Some say the other.

There's no agreement amongst Christians as to what gets you into God's good graces.

Who's right? (trick question, they're all wrong)
 
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