Are we no better than Dogs?

[Elixir]

I want to discuss ideas, respectfully - plenty of ideas that I do not agree with

Fine. Try doing that instead of telling people that those ideas you detest are theirs.

That is what living in a democracy is all about - freedom of ideas, even if they don't agree with mine

I hope nobody told you that message boards are democracies.

 

[steve_bank]

Are we better than dogs?

Sometimes humans sit around barking and baring teeth at each other. Mingled with a little butt sniffing.

Humans and dogs are pack animals. Dogs and humans battle for the alpha dog spot.

One deference is humans piss in toilets most of time, dogs piss and shit anywhere they like,.

Humans are shy about screwing in public, dogs will hump anywhere.

 

[Elixir]

One deference is humans piss in toilets most of time, dogs piss and shit anywhere they like,.

Not really. Both need training if you want them to use a toilet. Puppies actually learn it faster than human babies, but few people train them. I don't want my dogs using the toilet so I don't train them to.

Humans are shy about screwing in public, dogs will hump anywhere.

Not sure if that is points for or against.

 

[southernhybrid]

southernhyrid is an atheist.

Any fool can call himself anything
There are plenty of wolves in sheep's clothing
His anger, his mockery, personal insults - are not that of an Atheist, I am sorry

I see you’ve posted a lot of fresh nonsense, including more crap about dogs in a different thread. I’ll address it tomorrow. Bear in mind that you are talking mostly to atheists here.

Another Theist with an open mind

Do you, or do you not, believe in literal reincarnation?

I have answered this stupid question over and over!
THESE ARE IDEAS! Now i am shouting
Do you not understand what an Idea means?
And it does not matter what I believe - do not make this personal
I am here to discuss ideas and i seem to keep running into theists

I am a female and a strong atheist, who left religion behind over 50 years ago. I have not insulted you. As a retired RN who has cared for many people suffering from depression and anxiety, I was just concerned about you based on how erratic many of your posts seemed to some of us. You may not realize it but you are the one who is insulting the rest of us. It's called projection.

Plus, you continue to make totally unsubstantiated claims about dogs. I haven't kept up with your latest posts, but I just noticed that you posted that puppies are taken away from their mothers when they are a few days old. Sorry, but that is one of the most nutty things you've said about dogs. Dogs nurse their puppies for at least 6 ro 8 weeks before they are independent enough to find new homes. I've had two dogs when I was young and careless that gave birth to puppies. The mother dog nursed them for over 2 months. I personally found good homes for all of the pups. The puppies from the second dog were adopted by nurses who I worked with at the time. I have two wonderful dog companions now, both were rescued, one from the street and one from a dog shelter. They love me and I love them. Not once have they seemed unhappy being a part of my family. They are both resting comfortably in the room with me and my husband as I write this. Dogs are best, but humans don't always treat them well.

YOU HAVE NOT INSULTED ME? HELLO! You called me names, called me senile!
So posting my views is now considered an insult to you because you don't agree with it!
It does not work the other way? Those who don't agree with YOUR views, can we say it is an insult?
.
You can disagree with my views on Dogs - that is your right - but that is what living in a democracy means
But you need to respect other views
What YOU or YOUR FAMILY did is admirable - but to say EVERYONE DOES THE SAME? EXCUSE ME?
I am a dog lover myself - have worked in shelters
These dogs do not belong there - they are there because we want pets - we have taken away from their natural habitat
and made them our dependents - now they can't survive without us & so end up in shelters, to be put down if no one adopts them
.
Consider life from the Dog's viewpoint - it is a helpless dependent
Confined to the home, to go out, it is put on a leash
Would you eat the same food every day? The dog does
As I age, I find myself going more often - the poor dog has to hold it unless there is a backyard
What about family? WE get to have families, children, loved ones
The Dog must make do with an alien life?
The dog does know that it is not with its own kind
In the wild, dogs have families, bring up their kids
With us, most male dogs do not even know they have had kids
And the females, MUST give up their kids? They must not have families
YOU decide how long they must enjoy their kids?
Would you like it if you had a child and were told you can only keep it for 6-8 weeks?
.
And plenty of dogs are mistreated, abused, beaten and they can do nothing about it
And if the owner decides that he/she does not want this dog, out it goes
Some leave it in the street, others dump them in shelters
I saw plenty of Pitbulls - cute as puppies, but once they grow big, they are very strong
The owner cannot handle them - they are cute no more
So dump them in shelters!
.
This is not a life that they chose - we force this life on them
They need to live just like any wild animal - hunt for food, have a family, bring up their kids, deal with dangers on their own

Where did I call you senile? I simply said I was concerned by how some of your posts were coming across, and suggested that IF you were having emotional problems, we have a support section where you could ask for some advice and support. How in the world is that an insult? It was meant as an offer for help, if you needed some.

There you go with your misinformation about dogs again. Please do yourself a favor and read some books written by scientists that have researched dogs instead of making up things based on what you believe without any evidence.

I've agreed that there are people who are cruel to dogs and if discovered, they will be arrested and charged with animal abuse. In fact, based on what little I have been told, It may be that my dog, Sunny, who I rescued from our city shelter was abused or neglected. She lived on a farm and the farm animals were confiscated along with her due to some type of mistreatment. She is very happy now. She is forgiving. She shows her love to everyone who enters my home, wags her tail when she hears my voice, sits with her head in my lap, or enjoys stretching out on the sofa in the front room, gets excited about her walks with my husband, gets good medical care, including all needed vaccines and enjoys healthy tasty meals. She hasn't held a grudge just because her former life wasn't a good one. I'll say it again. Dogs are usually better than most people.

You keep saying that this thread isn't about dogs, and then you keep bringing up dogs. Dogs are not wild animals. They are fully domesticated. They want to be with us! They chose to be with us. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

If you think we all hate you so much, which I certainly don't, why are you still here? If I felt everyone hated me and was insulting me, I would leave and try to find a better match for myself. You can stay if you want, but please stop insulting us by making false claims about us.

Do you honestly think I'm not an atheist? I wonder why my atheist friends have let me arrange our monthly meetups or why I was once the treasurer of a Humanist organization or why some Christians I know have told me I'm going to hell for not believing what they do. Hmmmm. I guess I fooled them all good. /s.

 

[pood]

These dogs do not belong there - they are there because we want pets - we have taken away from their natural habitat
and made them our dependents - now they can't survive without us & so end up in shelters, to be put down if no one adopts them

You have no clue what you are talking about. Dogs are not in shelters because “we want pets.” They are in shelters because there are some bad human owners who abandon their pets. These dogs in shelters WANT TO BE WITH PEOPLE, NOT WITH OTHER DOGS.

.
Consider life from the Dog's viewpoint - it is a helpless dependent
Confined to the home, to go out, it is put on a leash

The dogs does not view itself as a :”helpless dependent” and does not mind being put on a leash. You are anthropomorphizing dogs.

Would you eat the same food every day? The dog does

Many dogs do not eat the same food every day.

As I age, I find myself going more often - the poor dog has to hold it unless there is a backyard
What about family? WE get to have families, children, loved ones
The Dog must make do with an alien life?

It is NOT an alien life to dogs! It is WHAT THEY WANT.

Again, the key point you ignore is that humans and dogs are co-evolved. When we look at each other love hormones go coursing in our heads.

The dog does know that it is not with its own kind

It IS with its own kind — human companions!

In the wild, dogs have families, bring up their kids

Dogs in the wild are wolves.

With us, most male dogs do not even know they have had kids

They don’t care!

And the females, MUST give up their kids? They must not have families

As has already been exoplained to you, breeders sell pups AFTER they have been weaned. After her dogs are weaned, the mother dogs LOSE INTEREST IN THEM.

YOU decide how long they must enjoy their kids?

See above.

Would you like it if you had a child and were told you can only keep it for 6-8 weeks?

We’re HUMANS, they are DOGS. Mother dogs LOSE INTEREST in their pups after weaning.

.
And plenty of dogs are mistreated, abused, beaten and they can do nothing about it

Those are the minority of bad human owners.

And if the owner decides that he/she does not want this dog, out it goes

Ditto

Some leave it in the street, others dump them in shelters
I saw plenty of Pitbulls - cute as puppies, but once they grow big, they are very strong
The owner cannot handle them - they are cute no more
So dump them in shelters!
.
This is not a life that they chose - we force this life on them

NO WE DO NOT. Dogs WANT be with humans. After pups are weaned, and their mother loses interest in them, what would like to see? Starving half-grown dogs wandering the streets rummaging through trash cans for food? Because that is the fate you would condemn them to.

They need to live just like any wild animal - hunt for food, have a family, bring up their kids, deal with dangers on their own

NO THEY DO NOT. They are DOMESTICATED animals, honed by thousands of years of evolution to be that way. If you put a pup in the wild after weaning IT WOULD DIE.

You cannot undo thousands of years of evolution ON YOUR SAY SO.

 

[Elixir]

There you go with your misinformation about dogs again. Please do yourself a favor and read some books written by scientists that have researched dogs instead of making up things based on what you believe without any evidence.

Oh no! Another INSULT! You called Ramawhatever IGNORANT!!! Oh NOOoooes!

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.dogster.com/dog-health-care/when-can-puppies-live-without-their-mother

Puppies learn critical socialization skills from their mothers, siblings, and their breeders. Socialization occurs in puppies from about 6 weeks to 14 weeks of age. This time is of the utmost importance in the development of every puppy. They take in and learn a great deal of information about the world. The behaviors and personalities that emerge during this time will stay with them for the rest of their lives. It’s at this age that they also form strong attachments with the people looking after them.

Therefore, puppies need to be exposed to as many new situations, people, different environments, and other animals as much and as safely as possible. Socialization will have a significant impact on the puppy’s bond with their families, self-confidence, and behavior.

The average age when puppies are weaned from their mother’s milk is about 3 to 5 weeks. Puppies need to nurse from their mothers until the natural weaning process occurs, which is a stressful event for puppies.

They should not be sent to their new homes until they have been completely weaned and are eating solid food. The unfortunate side effect of removing a puppy that hasn’t been adequately weaned is an anxious and insecure adult dog.

Behavior​

Puppies learn valuable lessons from their siblings as another aspect of socialization. When they are about 3 to 5 weeks old, they are not only learning about the world, but they are also learning about communication and play behaviors with other dogs.

What Happens If a Puppy Leaves Their Mother Too Late?​

Toy breed puppies tend to stay longer with their mothers, whereas large breed puppies shouldn’t be kept for much longer than 9 to 10 weeks. If they are kept any longer, they can start to develop submissive or dominant behaviors that can lead to problems in the future.

Large breeds grow quickly, are quite strong, and can become extremely rambunctious. This can make taking care of your new puppy quite difficult because you’ll need to know how to deal with this large, overly excited animal. It’s easier to form a strong bond with a large puppy at 8 to 10 weeks of age rather than one at 12

There ya go. You don't even have to read an entire book to learn about when dogs are ready to leave their mothers and the negative impact of staying with her for too long. Doggies dads don't even hang around after getting the mom pregnant. Dogs learn some good behaviors from mom, but then are ready to find a good home with humans. Not that I expect a certain person to read this, but one can hope.....

I guess we could have asked to have this thread moved to the "all things dogs" thread, since it's more about dogs than anything else.

 

[southernhybrid]

There you go with your misinformation about dogs again. Please do yourself a favor and read some books written by scientists that have researched dogs instead of making up things based on what you believe without any evidence.

Oh no! Another INSULT! You called Ramawhatever IGNORANT!!! Oh NOOoooes!

Not exactly, although Rama might take it that way. I'm ignorant about a lot of things and appreciate any helpful advice as long as it's not too complicated. So, don't tell me how to program. That is way over my head, despite somehow managing to get a B in a programming course I took in the late 70s. I'm just or was once a pretty good test taker.

 

[pood]

Notice that Ramaraksha equivocates on his descriptions of the human-canine relationship. In some posts he’ll characterize dogs as freeloaders or parasites, and in other posts he likens them to slaves or chattel who have been forced to serve us. It can’t be both ways.

And of course, neither is true.

Here is the word of the day for Rama:

SYMBIOTIC

Look it up.

 

[steve_bank]

Well, what I was saying is he thread is a pack of snarling butt sniffling dogs..

Woe is me, nobody ever gets me. Waaah Waaahh Waaah

 

[ideologyhunter]

Rush Limbaugh once said on his show that dogs don't really love us, they just want the food we give them and the blankets to sleep on. (This had to have been around the late 90s, because by 2000 I couldn't stand him even for his 'entertainment' value.) I thought then: Goddamn, Rush, have you ever had a dog? Had a companion dog that was happiest by your side, that clamored to jump in the car with you, that followed you around the house watching you? (Mine watched me trap centipedes to get them out of the house, and now he carries on like Centipede Hunter of the Western World.) But with Rush, you had to remember his spotty record with love -- the number of women who walked out of marriages with him, even with the Rush lifestyle they enjoyed.
This thread is just as dumb.
Dogs that have a good home with humans have struck, hands down, the best deal that any species has had with another species. The wonder is that these 4-legged friends have been able to bridge the species gap and live happily with us. They discovered a blissfully happy life in the process. No doubt, centuries of being our companions have developed a wider emotional palette than most creatures with their intelligence display. A dog with a loving master is probably the most perfectly happy creature on the planet. And they are damn good at spreading the joy. In warm weather, I hang out on the deck of our local coffee shop, where my dog greets everyone who comes up the walk. He does his little act for them, and those who respond get a short visit with the most exuberantly friendly pooch you'll ever meet.
We enriched their lives. They enrich ours. If that disturbs you, buy an ant farm or a hermit crab. Those guys will hardly know you exist.

 

[pood]

Rush Limbaugh would say something just that ignorant about dogs. In addition to being a despicable human being he was a total ignoramus — and along with Fox News and others, helped dumb down the nation to prepare it for MAGA fascism.

 

[bilby]

I am going by their reaction to my posts - why the anger?

I for one cannot understand how somebody you condescend to, misgender, and unjustly accuse of theism*, would be angry.

It's a total mystery.









* Despite your having access, as a member of this board, not only to their profile in which their "basic beliefs" are published, but also to a long history of postings where they clearly demonstrate their atheism, and openly display their gender.

I didn't know here gender until it was pointed out to me

Well the information was right there in front of you; So if you didn't know, it is because you couldn't be bothered to find out. Is that laziness, or just indifference? Either is unworthy.

So basically you ignore her abusive post, calling me names, senile etc but find fault with me

There was no insult, just advice.

You may not like that advice, but you brought it upon yourself, through your failure to apply your intelligence to acquire easily discovered knowledge.

A case in point being that the ONLY person who has used the word "senile" here, is YOU.

I have not interacted with her before - this was her first post to me & it was a brutal personal attack

No, it wasn't. Get over yourself; You are the new visitor in our home. If you march in making pronouncements about us, based on false assumptions that would have been trivially easy for you to avoid had you cared to do so, then you can expect to be treated with the disdain due to a boorish and condescending incomer.

So ignore all that - i am condescending? oh wow! So sorry, what a horrible person I am

Well, that's something you can choose to work on; Or to double down on.

The choice is entirely yours, and the consequences are entirely on you - if you don't care that people see you as rude and condescending, then you can carry on as you are.

If, as your sarcasm here suggests, you do care, then it is in your power to change.

As for being theist - as I said I am going by her post

Really? Nothing in her post would give a careful reader that impression. Perhaps you should read more, and write less - particularly about other members here, at least until you have taken the time to get to know us.

 

[pood]

Rush Limbaugh once said on his show that dogs don't really love us, they just want the food we give them and the blankets to sleep on. (This had to have been around the late 90s, because by 2000 I couldn't stand him even for his 'entertainment' value.) I thought then: Goddamn, Rush, have you ever had a dog? Had a companion dog that was happiest by your side, that clamored to jump in the car with you, that followed you around the house watching you? (Mine watched me trap centipedes to get them out of the house, and now he carries on like Centipede Hunter of the Western World.) But with Rush, you had to remember his spotty record with love -- the number of women who walked out of marriages with him, even with the Rush lifestyle they enjoyed.
This thread is just as dumb.
Dogs that have a good home with humans have struck, hands down, the best deal that any species has had with another species. The wonder is that these 4-legged friends have been able to bridge the species gap and live happily with us. They discovered a blissfully happy life in the process. No doubt, centuries of being our companions have developed a wider emotional palette than most creatures with their intelligence display. A dog with a loving master is probably the most perfectly happy creature on the planet. And they are damn good at spreading the joy. In warm weather, I hang out on the deck of our local coffee shop, where my dog greets everyone who comes up the walk. He does his little act for them, and those who respond get a short visit with the most exuberantly friendly pooch you'll ever meet.
We enriched their lives. They enrich ours. If that disturbs you, buy an ant farm or a hermit crab. Those guys will hardly know you exist.

But see, according to Rama, they’d be much better off and happier by living a literal dog-eat-dog life in the wild. This, you see, is what nature “intends.”

 

[ideologyhunter]

Yeah, the 'wild' that doesn't exist nowadays. All the pets would be running around eating garbage and we'd, I guess, be shooting them.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Where did I call you senile? I simply said I was concerned by how some of your posts were coming across, and suggested that IF you were having emotional problems, we have a support section where you could ask for some advice and support. How in the world is that an insult? It was meant as an offer for help, if you needed some.

There you go with your misinformation about dogs again. Please do yourself a favor and read some books written by scientists that have researched dogs instead of making up things based on what you believe without any evidence.

I've agreed that there are people who are cruel to dogs and if discovered, they will be arrested and charged with animal abuse. In fact, based on what little I have been told, It may be that my dog, Sunny, who I rescued from our city shelter was abused or neglected. She lived on a farm and the farm animals were confiscated along with her due to some type of mistreatment. She is very happy now. She is forgiving. She shows her love to everyone who enters my home, wags her tail when she hears my voice, sits with her head in my lap, or enjoys stretching out on the sofa in the front room, gets excited about her walks with my husband, gets good medical care, including all needed vaccines and enjoys healthy tasty meals. She hasn't held a grudge just because her former life wasn't a good one. I'll say it again. Dogs are usually better than most people.

You keep saying that this thread isn't about dogs, and then you keep bringing up dogs. Dogs are not wild animals. They are fully domesticated. They want to be with us! They chose to be with us. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

If you think we all hate you so much, which I certainly don't, why are you still here? If I felt everyone hated me and was insulting me, I would leave and try to find a better match for myself. You can stay if you want, but please stop insulting us by making false claims about us.

Do you honestly think I'm not an atheist? I wonder why my atheist friends have let me arrange our monthly meetups or why I was once the treasurer of a Humanist organization or why some Christians I know have told me I'm going to hell for not believing what they do. Hmmmm. I guess I fooled them all good. /s.

Just because I am an orderly in a hospital does not give me the right to write prescriptions
Just because you worked in some health facility does not make you a psychiatrist
You shouldn't be handing out advice like that
I might not like your views either, but I am not going to tell you to go see a psychiatrist - that is being abusive
Amazing that you still can't see how abusive you were and are still being
Stick to the what is being posted - give your perspective on things issues, as you have been doing, but please stay away from
personal attacks
.
"Dogs are not wild animals. They are fully domesticated."
WE domesticated them - they didn't ask for it
It started as a beneficial relationship - they kept guard at night, we gave them some food
Still happens in countries like India - the dogs are not pets - they don't get names
They still get to have families, WE don't get to decide that 6-8 weeks is enough motherhood for you, THEY do
.
"why are you still here?" I am not going to run away just because some people ganged up on me
I have rights as well - I keep asking for people to stick to the issues, stop making it personal
But it keeps falling on deaf ears
.
"Do you honestly think I'm not an atheist?" The violent way you reacted to my post
"Why am I posting against religion? "WTF"?? "WTF"??? Excuse your language!
And you get to post against religion? You get to comment on those who post against religion?
.
And all this about dogs - as I mentioned I love dogs and have worked in animal shelters
I just feel they don't belong in our homes - pets are not natural - it is unnatural
These animals belong in the wild - hunting & fending for themselves - having loving families
We are not their family - we force them to since they are pack animals - that is not right
What we are doing is animal abuse - for a lover of dogs it is sad that you can't see that

 

[ideologyhunter]

If it made me sad, I know who I'd call to my side.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Yeah, the 'wild' that doesn't exist nowadays. All the pets would be running around eating garbage and we'd, I guess, be shooting them.

It's our fault - most dogs would not survive in the wild after all these years of domestication
WE did this to them
let's suppose some guy abducted a child, kept her in his basement for years throwing her food
once in a while & finally let her go once an adult - you think that child would be a success?
That is what we did to dogs - they belong in packs - we took that away from them. we forced them to consider us their pack
But male dogs barking at other male dogs dogs, wagging their tails to females, shows that they do know we are not their kind
Wild Dogs in Africa and Australia succeed because they live in packs - as a pack they are successful in hunting
Alone they would not have much success
Now cats are a different matter - the no.1 killer of small birds is the cat
The Cat can live in the wild without us - down south of the US that is - in northern climes they might not survive

 

[pood]

WE domesticated them - they didn't ask for it

We domesticated each other in a symbiotic relationship.

You appear to be totally ignorant of biology, evolution and nature.

You say you worked in a shelter. I find that hard to believe. If you had done so, you must have known that most ot those dogs came from abusive human partners who abandoned them. The ONLY way they could then survive is if they found a human partner who would care for them. Would you have them cast into the wild, and become feral dogs who would probably starve? Male dogs beat it after mating. They don’t give a. shit about their offspring. Dog mothers lose interest in their pups after weaning them. Do you not understand these facts?

Did you even read my post a bit upthread that discussed all this in detail?

 

[Ramaraksha]

But see, according to Rama, they’d be much better off and happier by living a literal dog-eat-dog life in the wild. This, you see, is what nature “intends.”

The point is that WE are deciding what is good for them
Question for you - Would you like the life of a Dog as a pet?
Say you applied for the position of a sentry - a night watchman at a rich lady's house
The pay is ok - you live an ok life
Of course in life you have the usual issues, you could lose your job any day, health issues could come up
Loved ones going thru tough times etc etc
Then she says she has taken a liking to you and wants you to come live with her
No more work, you get to live in a mansion, great food, no more worries about the future
Well, there is one - but we will come to that later
.
There is a catch though, actually a bunch of catches
You are no longer allowed to meet anyone of your kind - no more family or friends
Going out, she is going to put a leash on you and take you around, not where you want to go, but where SHE wants to go
You can't go anytime you want unless there is a backyard, if not, you better go when you are taken out
And better learn to hold it if she fails to take you out - if not, there might be punishment
Food is good but it is the same food every day!
.
Sex is on her terms - if you are male, you get to meet & have sex with a female once in a while
It doesn't matter whether you find the female attractive or not, this might be your only chance at having sex
There might be kids as a result, but you will not be informed
And for the female - you get to have kids but they will soon be taken away from you
How long the mother hood lasts is not up to you, but up to your mistress
.
And the worry? your mistress might die and then you might find yourself out in the woods to fend for yourself
Or your new world might be a 4 X 6 feet cage! New people taking you out once in a while, the same bland food everyday!
If you fail to find a new master or mistress, you may be put to permanent sleep
.
Now that you see what life is like for a dog as a pet - I await your answer
Would you rather be a pet than be independent?