Are we now in full blown fascist totalitarianism?

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Dr Z, are you going to talk about or just distract from the current events discussed in this thread topic?

 

[Swammerdami]

One wonders where DrZ et al get their news. Do they think Kamala Harris ordered the demolition of half the White House? Does he think it was Biden who hired the masked ICE thugs?

Mutual respect is the only way forward

You want us to have respect for the people that say "Fuck your feelings."?

Or the (same) people who don't value human life and don't care if people die from preventable diseases? How are you getting "mutual respect" from them? Or the (same) people who are OK with forcing children to give birth to their rapist's baby? Fuck your "mutual respect".

Or even for the people who pretend not to be MAGGOTs but say "the left is worse than the right" or blame the Shut-down on the Dems.

And F*ck the Putin-GOP Bullshit Machine: Millions of poor MAGA voters are about to lose food and healthcare, but will obediently blame it on the Demonrats.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Have we agreed yet on an actual definition of fascism? I think Madeleine Albright has the right idea when she defines it as a method to gain power, rather than any particular "ideology" to pursue once power is gained. This certainly fits Trump whose only "ideology", beyond greedy grifting, is whatever whim flavored his latest wet-dream.

The Third Earl Russell, prominent logician and philosopher who won the Nobel Prize for Literature, did a great job of describing fascist take-over:

The first step in a fascist movement is the combination under an energetic leader of a number of men who possess more than the average share of leisure, brutality, and stupidity. The next step is to fascinate fools and muzzle the intelligent, by emotional excitement on the one hand and terrorism on the other.

Litteral fascism is a movement and a culture that only could exist in a very particular society. That context is gone.

Littoral fascism denotes despotic rule by demagoguery in a coastal region. The Orange Despot rules (or rather misrules) riparian regions, mountains and plains as well as the coasts.

Perhaps you intended "literal fascism" and, in your mind, equated this with "Fascism with a capital F," and that you interpreted the capital letter as providing specificity, i.e. denoting only the political party of Benito Mussolini who coined the word.

In America, democratic and Democratic are two different words, as are republican and Republican. (Indeed that latter capitalized party has renounced its lower-case aspiration.) But Fascism is now treated as synonymous with fascism. We've not agreed on a definition yet, but Merriam-Webster (with its "often Fascism") at least disposes of your apparent misconception about the capitalization.

fascism​

noun​

fas·cism ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-

plural fascisms

1 often Fascism : a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition.

But there's plenty of fascistic tendencies in modern movements. That's what people mean.

Without examples of what you consider to be "fascist tendencies" your claims are fatuous (and almost tautologous).

I just took your question seriously. Sorry for that.

Here's a list of things we associate with fascism.

• Cult of the strong leader (charismatic daddy figure, zero accountability)
• Hyper-nationalism (glorified national myth, usually invented)
• Militarism & love of violence (war = purification, not politics)
• Obsession with “purity” (racial, cultural, moral — pick your poison)
• Scapegoats & enemies (minorities, dissenters, intellectuals — easy targets)
• Suppression of democracy (elections in name only; opposition crushed)
• Total control of media & propaganda saturation
• Corporate–state fusion (capital works for the regime, not the market)
• Anti-individualism (collective identity over personal rights)
• Mythic past fetish (imaginary golden age to “return” to)
• Anti-intellectualism (thinking bad, loyalty good)
• Glorification of masculinity & obedience (softness = sin)
• Police state surveillance & political violence
• Cult of sacrifice (citizens exist to serve the state)

Short version: authoritarian cosplay mixed with nostalgia, paranoia, and daddy issues.

The big ones that are missing from American fascistic tendencies are supression of democracy, anti individualism, police state surveilance and glorification of masculinity.

Americans all over the political spectrum are undoubtedly for democracy. When Trump complained about the election being stolen, he did so within a narrative where democratic elections are good. He's never argued against democracy. He's a paranoid idiot.. not fascist.

Anti individualism has never been an American virtue.

Police state surveilance has never been seen as anything but the infringement of personal liberties. The fact that Americans are more touchy about personal liberties than anywhere else, should tell you everything about how viable fascism is in USA

And lastly, we don't talk in terms of glorification of masculinity anymore. That's an old timey way of talking. Right now the talk is more of acknowledging that men aren't all bad. Since wokes spends so much energy on attacking men and masculinity. That's not glorifying. That's being defensive about it.

Was that clear enough?

I think it makes sense to talk about fascism and fascist ideals when we're discussing Islamists, like Hamas or ISIS. They really sign up to almost all of it. But it makes no sense when talking Trump, imho

 

[DrZoidberg]

Dr Z, are you going to talk about or just distract from the current events discussed in this thread topic?

I didn't get further than the thread title. The thread title suggests that the creator (Axulus) doesn't know what fascism is and doesn't know what totalitarianism is. The fact that he thinks that creating this thread won't risk him going to jail or being disapeared in a ditch suggests that he's not living in a fascist totalitarian state. It wasn't even a clever provocatively edgy title. It was just off base

The fight against Nazism and Fascism became culturally defining. Our entire post war world is defined against Nazism. So I think it matters to understand what the words mean.

Or do you think he mean fascist as in "poopypants"?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Mutual respect is the only way forward

You want us to have respect for the people that say "Fuck your feelings."?

Or the (same) people who don't value human life and don't care if people die from preventable diseases?

Having an alternative model for how healthcare should be financed isn't the same thing as not caring if people die from preventable diseases. It's just not. It's a question of economic policy. Socialist healthcare is very expensive. And in many ways inefficient. I live in Denmark. The healthcare here is awesome. But very expensive. We have very high taxes. I'm for it. But I understand those who are not. I don't think they're evil.

How are you getting "mutual respect" from them?

We can force other people on how to behave. That's not have it works. We just need to start and hope they follow suit.

Or the (same) people who are OK with forcing children to give birth to their rapist's baby? Fuck your "mutual respect".

Again.. I am with you on ideological matter. I couldn't be more liberal on this. But I don't think those who disagree with you and me are monsters. They just have different values. We both disagree with them. But I respect that they have their opinions. No amount of hysterical angry outbursts will convince conservatives they are wrong or make them vote according to what we think. That's my strong conviction.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Dr Z, are you going to talk about or just distract from the current events discussed in this thread topic?

Nope, one of the things right wingers do consistently is deflect and ignore counterpoints.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The word "intolerance" is a bit of a scam. Think about it. The so-called Left is actually tolerating Trump. He's still the President. We do not have a violent leftist revolution.

You can be intolerant without staging a violent revolution. There's plenty of ways to be a cunt before it gets violent.

I don't think the accusation of leftist intolerance is wrong.

I'm very much part of a leftist queer community. I'm talking about this from the inside. I am a insider witness to the intolerance of the left all over Europe. It's not a good look. And it's a new thing. This happened within the last 20 years. It started getting crazy around 2000, with a peak 2016 - 2018. Now the extreme leftist intolerance is dying. Thank fucking god. But I worry about how the bad the inevitable intolerant reaction from the right that is now upon us will be. I don't like it. But I think we have ourselves to blame.

On the other hand, look at what material effects there are from the right-wing intolerance. Purging people from govt jobs,

Slimming the govornment by cutting government jobs is not a purge. Come on!! That's an economic policy that you can agree or disagree on. But calling it a political purge is bizarre.

imprisoning enemies of Trump,

What? Imprisoning rioters or people breaking the law is not "imprisoning enemies of Trump"

kangaroo courts,

What kangaroo courts? Look, these are the kind of absurd claims we make fun of Trump for making. Can we please try to be less hysterical and silly than Trump? It shouldn't be that hard.

special out-of-country concentration camps....

Those are not uniquely Republican camps. Those are also Democrat camps.

 

[ZiprHead]

The meaning of woke has changed over time. Today, I'd argue, it only means liberal intolerance. I don't think it even means "excessiveNoly liberal and politically correct", anymore. That used to be what it means.

No. That's the way the right uses it. And there you go again spreading right wing bullshit.

Now I think it means to demand everyone has liberal values.

What are the liberal values you are so afraid of?

 

[ZiprHead]

You can be intolerant without staging a violent revolution. There's plenty of ways to be a cunt before it gets violent.

I don't think the accusation of leftist intolerance is wrong.

Can you give some examples of leftist intolerance? And then compare them to right wing intolerance.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

You can be intolerant without staging a violent revolution. There's plenty of ways to be a cunt before it gets violent.

I don't think the accusation of leftist intolerance is wrong.

Can you give some examples of leftist intolerance? And then compare them to right wing intolerance.

They never do. It's just lies.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Dr Z, are you going to talk about or just distract from the current events discussed in this thread topic?

I didn't get further than the thread title.

That is illogical. One does not only respond to a title or that would take it out of context of the substance of the argument. It is also rude and impolite and an enormous waste of time since everyone else will presume you follow the rules of etiquette to read a thread before responding within it. If everyone else just read titles without the context of the thread, we'd have a ridiculous nonsensical, even absurd way of trying to have rational discussions without anyone knowing the substance and context.

The thread title suggests that the creator (Axulus) doesn't know what fascism is and doesn't know what totalitarianism is.

That is your conclusion and you've spoken to it already. Following up with strictly focusing on "the left" and "the woke" does not come across at all as examining further evidence, questions, and context to defend that conclusion, but instead distractions.

The fact that he thinks that creating this thread won't risk him going to jail or being disapeared in a ditch suggests that he's not living in a fascist totalitarian state. It wasn't even a clever provocatively edgy title. It was just off base

You are unaware of additional context because you haven't been paying attention and didn't read the op. From the op: "Any troublesome individual can be so declared without a shred of evidence." This is technically true. They are arresting people without warrants and hauling them off to concentration camps outside the country sometimes. US citizens have been caught up in this and evidence of their citizenship has been ignored at times. That's what we know about it. There could conceivably now or in the future be such persons who DO get caught up in it and get disappeared. Besides that particular non-zero probability event there's also that many persons who have disagreed with what they observe on the streets DO get arrested or shot in the back by very aggressive persons.

The fight against Nazism and Fascism became culturally defining. Our entire post war world is defined against Nazism. So I think it matters to understand what the words mean.

Or do you think he mean fascist as in "poopypants"?

That's an idiotic question and you'd know that if you had followed rational rules of etiquette to read the thread. Many of the first responses in the thread logically recognize fascism as a spectrum and in fact that is what the very op title indicates by the question "Are we now in full-blown ..." So, some persons said no, no, we're not quite there yet. If you had read the thread you would see that no one then is assuming fascist merely means something I disagree with like your moronic label "poopypants." Instead, your argumentation is the superficial analysis around here (at best) and a deliberate distraction from a very logical thread about a spectrum and news events (at worst).

You should have enough information to go back and read the thread as well as subsequently participate in the thread with logical, relevant posts this time around.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You can be intolerant without staging a violent revolution. There's plenty of ways to be a cunt before it gets violent.

I don't think the accusation of leftist intolerance is wrong.

Can you give some examples of leftist intolerance? And then compare them to right wing intolerance.

Better yet, could he give some examples of events discussed in the thread and tell us why those events are not evidence of movement toward fascism along a spectrum? Since his view is that we're just calling the administration "poopypants," he should defend that view.

 

[Elixir]

Are we now in full blown fascist totalitarianism?​

We should know more fully by tonight or tomorrow. Prop 50 looks likely to pass in CA ((thanks @TSwizzle )
Trump gave Cuomo the kiss of death by endorsing him for NYC Mayor.
Other races will give us an idea of Republicans’ level of discontent with the idea of a fascist dictatorship.
I think (hope) Trump MIGHT have tried to sell it too soon.
But I’m still pretty fatalistic about 2026-8.
Another whole year to keep fucking this country up, and it might be unrecognizable by 11/26. If the fascists have to use force to keep the House, I’m pretty sure they will. But if they lose it, there will be mayhem. There is no clean way out of this Trumpistani shithole.

 

[Elixir]

How is that related to anything I have said, or even anything in this thread.

… talk about giving up the game!
Yeah, Zedhead, the welfare and even the very lives of our (not your) Nation’s youth have nothing to do with their suffering in the Right’s War on Woke.

I don't give a fuck about the second amendment.

More giveaway.
You know who doesn’t give a fuck about it?
THESE are your spirit animals:

 

[DrZoidberg]

You can be intolerant without staging a violent revolution. There's plenty of ways to be a cunt before it gets violent.

I don't think the accusation of leftist intolerance is wrong.

Can you give some examples of leftist intolerance? And then compare them to right wing intolerance.

There's an obvious one. The trans debate. Leftists were treating this as something obvious and simple. But it wasn't. Libreral were both forceful and hysterical about allowing transwomen to compete in female sports. Which is bizarre. Anyway... it had predictable results. And now it's being reversed. But transition for teenagers was always questionable. So much about it was strange. Men who fetishised having a female body got transitions, and wanted their fetishism accepted, with bizarre and predictable results. Ie autogynofiles. I don't have a problem with it. But it is a fetish and extreme. This type of trans play is not suitable outside sex positive spaces. And is also not gender dysforia. So much of this was confused and treated as if it was obvious, when it was not. We got an epidemic of gender transitions among autistic girls. Female to male. A trend that died out as woke died out. That's clearly not gender dysforia. That's something else. Zero nuance. Zero discussion. Unless we immediately joined in and accepting the most extreme leftist views on this we were Hitler.

Another obvious one was the racism debate. More an American one than European. But Europeans consume so much American media we thought Europe was the same. When it's not. But all the leftist talking points and myths, had to be accepted without question. No matter if they fit or not. I saw a fun study where they compared the income of Brits who had French last name vs English last names. Brits with French names had more income. Because these were the descendents of William the Conquerer's nobles who conquered England in 1066, and set themselves up as a ruling elite. The differences kept being felt a thousand years later. Nobody is going to claim that there's racism towards English by those who have French names. Most Brits aren't even aware which names have ethnic French roots. This is just to say that it's a lot more complicated than to say that poverty equates with being the victim of ongoing racism. Class is usually a better tool for analysis than race, imho.

And there's more. As shown in this thread, not wanting socialist healthcare is equated with wanting people to die from preventable diseases. That's not at all what the debate is about. But that's how it's framed by hysterical woke leftist extremists.

Another one is acknowledging that the abortion debate is about values, and to completely disregard the fundamentalist Christian perspective, as if it's the result of evil or some sort of mental difficiency. Nope... It's just a different set of values. Tough luck you (and I) don't share them.

We need to see our political oponents as worthy of human dignity and that their opinions matter otherwise we really are no better than Hitler.

I will let you compare these to right wing intolerance.

 

[Elixir]

Libreral were both forceful and hysterical about allowing transwomen to compete in female sports.

Who told you that?
Most of us liberals think it’s people like you making it an issue at all. Personally I don’t care about ANY group seeking redress when they are systemically harmed. They should be able to do that. But trans rights are not something that greatly influences my politics. It’s not like women’s rights in scope or effect; trans people are less than 1% of the population, and women are over 50%.

Yeah, everyone should have rights, but as far as SPORTS* are concerned, I don’t consider it important no matter HOW worked up a bunch of fascist rednecks get about it.

How has this alleged lib’rul unjustice impacted your day-to-day existence, Zed?

* my liberal view of trans sports, is that when trans people represent a significant enough fraction of the population they can form their own leagues, operate them themselves and keep the profits if enough people are interested to make it profitable.
I STRONGLY suspect that the greatest support will come from the lurid interest of right wing droolers.
Until then it’s just more blabber from the snowflakes on the right, about stuff that doesn’t even really effect them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You can be intolerant without staging a violent revolution. There's plenty of ways to be a cunt before it gets violent.

I don't think the accusation of leftist intolerance is wrong.

Can you give some examples of leftist intolerance? And then compare them to right wing intolerance.

There's an obvious one. The trans debate.

At the moment in the US, tens of millions are struggling to pay for food with SNAP funding in limbo. In unrelated situation, lots of people in the hospital dealing with life threatening conditions. And people with a certain shade of skin are being rounded up, arrested, some of them illegally detained.

What isn't happening in America is nearly zero people having their lives influenced in the very least, like as in no way whatsoever, by transgenders. The transgender scandal is perhaps one of the largest molehill mountain issues in political history.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

You can be intolerant without staging a violent revolution. There's plenty of ways to be a cunt before it gets violent.

I don't think the accusation of leftist intolerance is wrong.

Can you give some examples of leftist intolerance? And then compare them to right wing intolerance.

There's an obvious one. The trans debate. Leftists were treating this as something obvious and simple. But it wasn't. Libreral were both forceful and hysterical about allowing transwomen to compete in female sports.

The worst example of "leftist extremism" you can come up with is... allowing trans women to compete in female sports. Meanwhile, Melissa Hortman and Mark Hortman are dead, and the other victims have to live with the fact that they were targeted for assassination by a right wing extremist. Something which you repeatedly ignore.

 

[Shadowy Man]

If Charlie Kirk really said that, I suspect that's what he meant. Obviously he's for empathy.

if he meant that he could have said that. It’s certainly not obvious to me, especially when you put it in context with everything else he had said. You can suspect all you want but you don’t know.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

'Liars': Mayor accuses Kristi Noem's DHS of 'literally beating up innocent bystanders'

A Border Patrol agent was filmed punching a U.S. citizen in the head during a stop in a suburb outside of Chicago on Friday, and tried to justify it by saying the car was tail-gating them. Now the mayor is announcing an investigation into the agents.Evanston Mayor Daniel Biss announced an...

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