Are you a moral person?

[DrZoidberg]

Yes, an anarchistic society can have constraining mechanisms. That's not a self contradiction. It mostly just means that when things go well, everybody gets the credit. And when it goes badly, everybody shares the blame.



There's in-group and out-group selfishness, which I think is an unsolvable problem, for all these anarchistic utopian ideas.

Your first comment flees in the face of human nature which is decidedly selfish and self serving. To argue otherwise ignores rationales for belief and faith.

Finally. We agree.

I never said I was an anarchist. I was just nitpicking about your use of terminology like an annoying nerd.

 

[untermensche]

People raised in dictatorial systems need to be trained to follow arbitrary authority without question. This is a large part of US "education". A bunch of hoop jumping and threats.

Bullshit. Educational systems around the world are well adapted to maximising learning in children.

Away from the US people seem to behave a little saner.

In the US you have one dictator and a bunch of slaves.

You can call it an "education" but it also training in following the orders of a dictator.

It is not training in democratic control. It is not training in how to make decisions as a democratic body.

And it most definitely is not training in questioning authority and being distrustful of dictators.

Children cannot think critically effectively.

Children are malleable.

Train them to be slaves that do not strongly question authority and you will create one kind of society.

Train them to be democratic actors that do not put up with dictatorships and you will have a different society.

There's nothing wrong with threats.

WOW!!!!

You know this is the morality section, right?

People are indoctrinated to work in hierarchies

They are indoctrinated to accept capricious authority without question.

It is dangerous.

 

[fromderinside]

Ah, but the indoctrinated ones, the teachers, are well adapted to parrot that drivel so badly that even the slowest learner understands the learning game is knowing not repeating parroting rote.

Except maybe you untermenche​.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Away from the US people seem to behave a little saner.

In the US you have one dictator and a bunch of slaves.

You can call it an "education" but it also training in following the orders of a dictator.

It is not training in democratic control. It is not training in how to make decisions as a democratic body.

And it most definitely is not training in questioning authority and being distrustful of dictators.

Children cannot think critically effectively.

Children are malleable.

Train them to be slaves that do not strongly question authority and you will create one kind of society.

Train them to be democratic actors that do not put up with dictatorships and you will have a different society.

There's nothing wrong with threats.

WOW!!!!

You know this is the morality section, right?

People are indoctrinated to work in hierarchies

They are indoctrinated to accept capricious authority without question.

It is dangerous.

It's not indoctrination. Children need, and like to follow orders. They need strong authorities to guide them. Or they become insecure and develop all manner if psychological problems. They also need rigid rules, just so they have something to rebel against in their teens.

You're repeating ideas of child rearing that have been known as obsolete for half a century now.

Children aren't blank slates. As young children we're basically like all other primates. A child's prime mode of communication is non-verbal. The instincts are powerful.

We can't train kids to reject authority because it violates their basic programming. Children are not naturally democrats.

Pretty much all 19'th century theories about child rearing or even adult psychology is wrong. That includes the Marxist and anarchist ideas.

 

[untermensche]

It's not indoctrination. Children need, and like to follow orders.

It is indoctrination.

And it produces immoral ideas like this in the minds of some.

It readies the minds of many to accept the current power structures all around us.

Dictatorships.

 

[untermensche]

Ah, but the indoctrinated ones, the teachers, are well adapted to parrot that drivel so badly that even the slowest learner understands the learning game is knowing not repeating parroting rote.

Except maybe you untermenche​.

A human mind must be broken first to accept the idea of working in some dictatorship.

Better ways of living are possible.

 

[fromderinside]

Spare the hickory switch spoil the untermenche.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's not indoctrination. Children need, and like to follow orders.

It is indoctrination.

And it produces immoral ideas like this in the minds of some.

It readies the minds of many to accept the current power structures all around us.

Dictatorships.

It's just science. Research into human development. Science always trumps ideology

 

[untermensche]

There is no science that shows that children like to be ordered around.

What humans like is autonomy not servitude.

- - - Updated - - -

Spare the hickory switch spoil the untermenche.

That book also said that some god came down and walked on water.

Do you believe every absurd thing you read?

 

[DrZoidberg]

There is no science that shows that children like to be ordered around.

It's too big of a field to neatly sum it up in a pithy post. And I'm not an expert. I'm just a science nerd who reads a lot.

Your approach will create stressed out insecure and psychologically unstable adults. Children crave a rigid structure. They will always complain about not getting enough freedom. But its just subconscious testing of the carers control. They don't actually want true freedom. They just want a tiny amount of supervised freedom, so they can experiment a bit while feeling safe. Children are natural scientists. All studies indicate this. The results are quite consistent because children aren't as psychologicalydiverse as adults.

What humans like is autonomy not servitude.

Do you have arguments to back it up? You're just repeating it as if it's self evident. I don't think so. Adults are similar to children in that they tend to value safety over freedom. The effect isn't as strong in adults. But its still there.

I'd also argue that we are social creatures that strive toward finding social networks and finding our place in them. Which means finding our place in a hierarchy. It can be formal or informal. But we crave it. Without it we'll feel lonely.

This is reflected in our voting patterns. We just love strong leaders telling us what to do.

Nietzsche called it the slave morality. He framed it in terms of that normal people wanting to be slaves. While the übermensch dare to look beyond and challenge this.

In this model it's implied that most people won't be übermensch because it's psychologicaly traumatizing. It will be exceedingly rare, and these people aren't any more likely to be happy. We like being happy.

 

[fromderinside]

Spare the hickory switch spoil the untermenche.

That book also said that some god came down and walked on water.

Do you believe every absurd thing you read?

Book? What book? I'm just trying to get you for follow the herd.

As for science and following others

!. Science has concluded we are social animals.

2. Cognitive and emotional development depend on understanding others and getting along with them. Just look at this Ohio Development Services chart if you aren't convinced. http://www.rsd.k12.pa.us/Downloads/Development_Chart_for_Booklet.pdf

Understanding evolution of the autonomic nervous system is also instructive.

 

[untermensche]

"Spare the rod spoil the child" comes from the Bible.

That is the source of your "wisdom".

Children are malleable. That is something we know for a fact.

Teach them to behave as slaves and most will.

Teach them to be free thinkers and most will.

 

[untermensche]

There is no science that shows that children like to be ordered around.

It's too big of a field to neatly sum it up in a pithy post.

BULLSHIT!!!!

Children DO NOT like to be ordered around.

THAT is TOTAL BULLSHIT pulled from thin air.

They submit because they are weak and naive. They submit to what they are forced to submit to.

Like training in following arbitrary orders.

This is reflected in our voting patterns. We just love strong leaders telling us what to do.

Voting in the US reflects a lifetime of indoctrination to the necessity of dictators in work situations and the phenomena of learned helplessness.

It is NOT some window into the "natural psyche" of humanity.

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Spare the rod spoil the child" comes from the Bible.

That is the source of your "wisdom".

Children are malleable. That is something we know for a fact.

No we don't. The research suggest the exact opposite.

That's not my source. My sources are research into child development. People actually study this stuff. You are spectacularly wrong here.

Teach them to behave as slaves and most will.

Teach them to be free thinkers and most will.

The more children a parent has, the less they think parenting matters, and the more genetics matters.

On the topic of free thinking. You're just parroting 18'th and 19'th century philosophers. Who are now known to be obsolete. So free thinking isn't going so well for you. Where did it go wrong for you

 

[untermensche]

Show me this research that shows children are not malleable.

You know that none of them are born knowing a language or any rules of behavior?

 

[bilby]

"Spare the rod spoil the child" comes from the Bible.

That is the source of your "wisdom".

Children are malleable. That is something we know for a fact.

No we don't. The research suggest the exact opposite.

That's not my source. My sources are research into child development. People actually study this stuff. You are spectacularly wrong here.

Teach them to behave as slaves and most will.

Teach them to be free thinkers and most will.

The more children a parent has, the less they think parenting matters, and the more genetics matters.

On the topic of free thinking. You're just parroting 18'th and 19'th century philosophers. Who are now known to be obsolete. So free thinking isn't going so well for you. Where did it go wrong for you?

Almost everyone goes through a phase in their early teens when they decide that they know everything important about everything, and that teachers and other grown-ups are stupid and have no understanding of reality.

Sadly, some never get out of that phase.

 

[untermensche]

From some we get a little autobiography.

Thanks for sharing.

I await the research that shows children like to be ordered around and turned into servants.

I will not hold my breath.

What a bunch of total bullshit!!

The last refuge of a bad position.

Those that defend dictatorship are not moral. They are not wise. They are not educated.

They are brainwashed fools that prove the indoctrination is there.

 

[fromderinside]

The Stanford Study.

Visual Cliff

Second set of teeth before formal school

etc, dtc, etc.

All cues for major research themes. Have fun with developmental psychology.

 

[untermensche]

The Stanford Study.

Visual Cliff

Second set of teeth before formal school

etc, dtc, etc.

All cues for major research themes. Have fun with developmental psychology.

The Stanford study shows how humans quickly change when put into a dictatorial role with power over others.

It supports my position nicely.

Teeth?

You need a little more than that.

Visual Cliff? Have you been drinking?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Show me this research that shows children are not malleable.

You know that none of them are born knowing a language or any rules of behavior?

Both are wrong. There's a strong language instinct. Have you never wondered how it's possible for children at 2 years old to acquire language? They're dumb as bricks. Yet, manage to learn a skill that's hard for an adult to learn.

Behaviour is strongly innate. That's why humans are so hysterical about fairness. And not just humans. All primates care about fairness.

Why don't you make some more sweeping genaralizations that are this easy to shoot down?