Are you a moral person?

[Bronzeage]

I am proposing a structure that could not defend itself against an attack from the German Nazi's, the Italian fascists, the Russian Communists and the capitalists from the US and Britain.

France fell to just Germany.

Is that a social structure we should get rid of too?

And I am talking morality.

A dictatorship is an immoral structure.

Are you saying morality is not something we should strive to improve?

I am asking you how you intend to do this.

It might help if you could be more clear as to what you think morality is, or at least give some outline of your moral code.

My morality says dictatorship is an immoral power structure.

That is the end of capitalism as it exists as has always existed.

Why is a dictatorship an immoral power structure? I ask for a definition and you respond with more vague words.

Your second sentence doesn't make any sense.

 

[untermensche]

My morality says dictatorship is an immoral power structure.

That is the end of capitalism as it exists as has always existed.

Why is a dictatorship an immoral power structure? I ask for a definition and you respond with more vague words.

Your second sentence doesn't make any sense.

It is like asking why is rape wrong?

Dictatorship is an immoral power structure.

There is no moral justification for it.

 

[untermensche]

Erm... I think that preface only makes sense if the book would be about the Soviet union. If it wasn't it would be too on the nose. Only a hack writer thinks in one dimension. It's a way to say, nice of you realize the horrors of USSR, but things aren't perfect here either.

You're pulling things from your butt.

Orwell specifically wanted the preface in the British edition.

And ironically he was not allowed.

Pathetic!

Constant war.

Constant lies from the government.

Actions of the government hidden by a huge network of secrecy.

You do not see the similarities?

That's of no concern. We're discussing what country Orwell had in mind. And it wasn't USA or England.

Also... they're not very good liars as they keep getting caught

1984 was not about any specific nation.

But the features described in it clearly match present-day USA.

Constant war.

Constant lies from the government.

Governmental actions completely obscured by a huge network of secrecy.

Further and further technological intrusions into areas of privacy.

 

[Bronzeage]

My morality says dictatorship is an immoral power structure.

That is the end of capitalism as it exists as has always existed.

Why is a dictatorship an immoral power structure? I ask for a definition and you respond with more vague words.

Your second sentence doesn't make any sense.

It is like asking why is rape wrong?

Dictatorship is an immoral power structure.

There is no moral justification for it.

I'd love to hear your reasoning about the wrongness of rape, instead of a rhetorical question. After that, you can explain the standards for moral justification.

How would a power structure conform to your standards of morality? Could such an acceptable power structure insure the safety and well being of the group, in a hostile environment?

 

[untermensche]

Is there a moral difference between dictatorship in government and dictatorship in human economic interactions?

 

[DrZoidberg]

You're pulling things from your butt.

Orwell specifically wanted the preface in the British edition.

And ironically he was not allowed.

That's of no concern. We're discussing what country Orwell had in mind. And it wasn't USA or England.

Also... they're not very good liars as they keep getting caught

1984 was not about any specific nation.

But the features described in it clearly match present-day USA.

Constant war.

Constant lies from the government.

Governmental actions completely obscured by a huge network of secrecy.

Further and further technological intrusions into areas of privacy.

Big Brother was a thought police. It was illegal to have certain thoughts. You are being hysterical.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Is there a moral difference between dictatorship in government and dictatorship in human economic interactions?

There's so many loaded words here, I don't think anybody understands what you are trying to say. I'm certainly unsure

 

[untermensche]

Big Brother was a thought police. It was illegal to have certain thoughts. You are being hysterical.

I said the US shared many important features. Features you don't seem to care about, like endless war.

And the threat of Big Brother is real today in the US.

All our emails and communications are being recorded somewhere by the government. The man who exposed this is an enemy of the state living in Russia.

1984 was about what we presently are and what we can quickly evolve into.

It was also a work of the imagination. In no way is all of it to be taken literally.

It was a warning to the West.

Orwell had no love for top-down dictatorial capitalism and the kind of society that arises from it.

 

[untermensche]

Is there a moral difference between dictatorship in government and dictatorship in human economic interactions?

There's so many loaded words here, I don't think anybody understands what you are trying to say. I'm certainly unsure

I will define any word you don't understand.

Dictatorship.

A human hierarchical structure where all real power rests at the top in an individual or small group.

What else do you not understand?

Moral power structure?

This means the power structure is reasonably justified, not just desired.

To say a top down authoritarian power structure is moral is to say it is necessary. It would be worse to do away with it than to keep it.

It would be worse to get rid of the King than to keep him as many US Tories cried.

It would be worse to get rid of dictators in economic structures than to keep them as present day Tories cry.

Any structure of power has to prove it is needed to claim it is moral.

In some circumstances, like when crossing the road, a child many times needs an absolute dictator to tell them where to go. For the safety of the child. Not to allow the parent to steal from the child.

Hard to think of any circumstances where adults NEED a dictator.

 

[Bronzeage]

Is there a moral difference between dictatorship in government and dictatorship in human economic interactions?

Please define your terms. At this point, it seems anything you don't like is immoral, but you don't know why.

 

[untermensche]

Is there a moral difference between dictatorship in government and dictatorship in human economic interactions?

Please define your terms. At this point, it seems anything you don't like is immoral, but you don't know why.

How about you read the post right above this?

That is laziness.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Big Brother was a thought police. It was illegal to have certain thoughts. You are being hysterical.

I said the US shared many important features. Features you don't seem to care about, like endless war.

And the threat of Big Brother is real today in the US.

All our emails and communications are being recorded somewhere by the government. The man who exposed this is an enemy of the state living in Russia.

1984 was about what we presently are and what we can quickly evolve into.

It was also a work of the imagination. In no way is all of it to be taken literally.

It was a warning to the West.

Orwell had no love for top-down dictatorial capitalism and the kind of society that arises from it.

The world today has never been more peaceful than now. It's never been safer, and had less crime. The world is arguably, the opposite it what you're on about.

 

[Bronzeage]

Is there a moral difference between dictatorship in government and dictatorship in human economic interactions?

Please define your terms. At this point, it seems anything you don't like is immoral, but you don't know why.

How about you read the post right above this?

That is laziness.

I saw an exercise in circular logic. You say something is not moral, but still haven't been able to define morality. It still appears to be your personal prejudices which determine what is moral and what is not.

 

[DrZoidberg]

How about you read the post right above this?

That is laziness.

I saw an exercise in circular logic. You say something is not moral, but still haven't been able to define morality. It still appears to be your personal prejudices which determine what is moral and what is not.

I agree with you. Untermensche uses loaded words liberally. It's a bit like libertarians equating all taxes as theft, just to drive home the point that there's no difference between paying taxes to pay for infrastructure you are using AND having a meth head bust your car window to steal your stereo. Libertarians using words like that aren't particularly pursuasive.

 

[untermensche]

How about you read the post right above this?

That is laziness.

I saw an exercise in circular logic. You say something is not moral, but still haven't been able to define morality. It still appears to be your personal prejudices which determine what is moral and what is not.

How is we see democracy in government as preferable to dictatorship?

What is the problem with dictatorship?

- - - Updated - - -

How about you read the post right above this?

That is laziness.

I saw an exercise in circular logic. You say something is not moral, but still haven't been able to define morality. It still appears to be your personal prejudices which determine what is moral and what is not.

I agree with you. Untermensche uses loaded words liberally. It's a bit like libertarians equating all taxes as theft, just to drive home the point that there's no difference between paying taxes to pay for infrastructure you are using AND having a meth head bust your car window to steal your stereo. Libertarians using words like that aren't particularly pursuasive.

I see people when they realize they are defending dictatorship suddenly not know what anything means.

 

[Bronzeage]

How about you read the post right above this?

That is laziness.

I saw an exercise in circular logic. You say something is not moral, but still haven't been able to define morality. It still appears to be your personal prejudices which determine what is moral and what is not.

I agree with you. Untermensche uses loaded words liberally. It's a bit like libertarians equating all taxes as theft, just to drive home the point that there's no difference between paying taxes to pay for infrastructure you are using AND having a meth head bust your car window to steal your stereo. Libertarians using words like that aren't particularly pursuasive.

Libertarians are the toddlers of politics, so there's no reason to expect any higher level of discourse.

The basic misconception in this discussion is the idea that a moral person is a nice person. It doesn't always work that way.

 

[untermensche]

Capitalism is a more primitive form of human interaction than Anarchism.

Anarchism is a step forward in freedom and morality.

Capitalism is immoral. A dictatorship unless proven to be needed is immoral.

But the power of capitalists may destroy everything before any progress from it can take place.

 

[Bronzeage]

Capitalism is a more primitive form of human interaction than Anarchism.

Anarchism is a step forward in freedom and morality.

Capitalism is immoral. A dictatorship unless proven to be needed is immoral.

But the power of capitalists may destroy everything before any progress from it can take place.

Since you brought it up, what is the full scale of economic thought, starting with most primitive and going to whatever is least primitive?

I'm a capitalist. What about me do you find immoral?

 

[untermensche]

Capitalism is a more primitive form of human interaction than Anarchism.

Anarchism is a step forward in freedom and morality.

Capitalism is immoral. A dictatorship unless proven to be needed is immoral.

But the power of capitalists may destroy everything before any progress from it can take place.

Since you brought it up, what is the full scale of economic thought, starting with most primitive and going to whatever is least primitive?

I'm a capitalist. What about me do you find immoral?

What can be known for certain is democracy is an advancement over dictatorship.

The capitalist system is immoral. A bunch of dictatorships with very powerful dictators are not only dangerous but immoral.

Those trapped within the system must survive and are forced many times to behave immorally.

Like when they send jobs overseas and put people out of work merely to enrich themselves and others at the top.

This makes them institutional actors within an immoral system, not personally immoral.

With a system of dictators we are all forced into the directions they choose for us.

We are driving towards an ecological catastrophe as fast as possible because that is very good for the dictators.

This age will be remembered as the age shaped by the decisions of economic dictators.

If the history is written by the dictators they will be called something else, like leaders.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I saw an exercise in circular logic. You say something is not moral, but still haven't been able to define morality. It still appears to be your personal prejudices which determine what is moral and what is not.

I agree with you. Untermensche uses loaded words liberally. It's a bit like libertarians equating all taxes as theft, just to drive home the point that there's no difference between paying taxes to pay for infrastructure you are using AND having a meth head bust your car window to steal your stereo. Libertarians using words like that aren't particularly pursuasive.

I see people when they realize they are defending dictatorship suddenly not know what anything means.

I think you are using the word dictatorship for things that aren't dictatorships. But it's hard to know.