Astrology Apologetics

[Loren Pechtel]

So? Your birth sign will have different effects in places where you walk around on your head all the time but that doesn't mean it won't have an effect.

But it does mean it won't have an effect. My position in the school year had an effect; But it was different from the position in the school year that most people living here and born in the same month as me experienced. The two proposed 'causes' - month of birth, and position in the school intake - are decoupled for many people, and we can show that one remains relevant, while the other does not.

But this is only relevant if you compare countries. Within the area that most people are looking at there will be a difference.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In "defense" of astrology:

Your birth sign actually does have an effect in how you do in life.

Your birth sign is a proxy for how old you were when you entered school.

I'm not following this. My birth sign is Aries. How old was I when I entered school?

My best friend in elementary school is a Libra. How old was he when he entered school?

The issue is months, not years.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is what I think that Loren Pechtel's argument is.

Let's imagine that one starts in a school when one is at least 5 years old on September 1. If one is born on September 1, then one gets in at the age of 5. If one is born on August 31, 5 years 1 day. If one is born on August 1, 5 years 1 month. If one is born on October 1, 5 years 11 months or 6 years minus 1 month. If one is born on September 2, 6 years minus 1 day.

So birth sign does correlate with age at school entry. However, this effect is a continuum, not 12 discrete steps.

Ah, somebody gets it!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here is what I think that Loren Pechtel's argument is.

Let's imagine that one starts in a school when one is at least 5 years old on September 1. If one is born on September 1, then one gets in at the age of 5. If one is born on August 31, 5 years 1 day. If one is born on August 1, 5 years 1 month. If one is born on October 1, 5 years 11 months or 6 years minus 1 month. If one is born on September 2, 6 years minus 1 day.

So birth sign does correlate with age at school entry. However, this effect is a continuum, not 12 discrete steps.

But, as correlation is not causation, and astrology is palpable nonsense, and the liars quietly removed a 13th sign, and the choice of constellations which allegedly have some effect on people's lives, as opposed to those which don't, is purely arbitrary, the whole edifice is dumber than a southern prayer meeting. Why doesn't Ophiuchus matter to liar astrologers , even though it was the 13th of the original set? Why doesn't Orion, another very noticeable constellation, have some say in the matter? The answer, as always....is that it's complete horse puckey.

Of course it's horse puckey. I'm just saying there actually is a small relationship between one's sign and how life goes even though the astrological explanation for that is utterly bogus.

 

[James Brown]

The issue is months, not years.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is what I think that Loren Pechtel's argument is.

Let's imagine that one starts in a school when one is at least 5 years old on September 1. If one is born on September 1, then one gets in at the age of 5. If one is born on August 31, 5 years 1 day. If one is born on August 1, 5 years 1 month. If one is born on October 1, 5 years 11 months or 6 years minus 1 month. If one is born on September 2, 6 years minus 1 day.

So birth sign does correlate with age at school entry. However, this effect is a continuum, not 12 discrete steps.

Ah, somebody gets it!

Then we could just as easily say, "[The month in which you were born] is a proxy for how [many months] old you were when you entered school." Which sounds to me like a tautology, not a backhanded support for the validity of astrology.

And all of that is assuming that all school children in an area start school in the same month of the year. Where I grew up, kids were slotted into one of three Tracks--A, B, and C--with only two of three Tracks attending classes at any given time (due to insufficient classroom space to hold all kids at the same time.) So depending on your zip code, you started classes in August, December, or April.

 

[bilby]

In "defense" of astrology:

Your birth sign actually does have an effect in how you do in life.

Show

The issue is school. We lump all kids born over the range of a year together in one grade in school but some of them will actually be more developed than others. This is a definite factor in sports but has some effect in general education also. Your birth sign is a proxy for how old you were when you entered school.

Only if you forget (as Americans are prone to doing) that other countries exist, and do things differently.

Other countries too have cut-off dates before which the default is that you wait another year before going to school, and after which the default is that you go this year, unless your parents make the school's phsysician assess that doing otherwise would be more appropriate.

And even if it weren't so, school starts at a specified time of the year, so even if every individual pupil-to-be is individually assessed, this'll mean a diagnosis of "it's more than time" in one case and "it might be a wee bit early, but waiting till this time next year would be a definite waste" in another. You'd need a school system where you can join class at literally any time throughout the year for the effect to entirely disappear.

Either that, or you would have to allow people to live in places other than the place they went to school...

 

[Politesse]

Seems that you have been exposed to some fishing woo-er.

Indeed. But, unlike yourself, consider it a good thing to have some experience with something before commenting on it.

And secular does not mean non-religious in the sense of being "atheist", especially not in this case. One's stance on god is not connected in any logical way to one's stance on astrology, or one's ability or motivation to practice clinical psychology.

 

[Juma]

Seems that you have been exposed to some fishing woo-er.

Indeed. But, unlike yourself, consider it a good thing to have some experience with something before commenting on it.

And secular does not mean non-religious in the sense of being "atheist", especially not in this case. One's stance on god is not connected in any logical way to one's stance on astrology, or one's ability or motivation to practice clinical psychology.

I didnt say i havent experience of ”professional” astrology. I have. But you seem to believe that there is one single ”school” of how its done...
thing is: its built on bullshit. That will creep into any session you have with an astrologer.

 

[lpetrich]

Or, as I noted, how astrological consulting usually goes. Have you ever actually had a session?

Consulting of what? ”Astrology” isnt a certified profession. Seems that you have been exposed to some fishing woo-er.

Anyone can counsel anyone, even astrologers.

A big part of astrology is the Forer or Barnum effect: making general sorts of statements that seem very plausible. Forer effect - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com contains a classic:

You have a need for other people to like and admire you, and yet you tend to be critical of yourself. While you have some personality weaknesses you are generally able to compensate for them. You have considerable unused capacity that you have not turned to your advantage. Disciplined and self-controlled on the outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure on the inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You also pride yourself as an independent thinker; and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. But you have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable, and sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, and reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be rather unrealistic.

 

[phands]

Here is this week's horoscope, courtesy of The Onion

Just excellent - I love The Onion....

Your Horoscopes — Week Of September 4, 2018

Virgo | Aug. 23 to Sept. 22

The culmination of your life’s dream is in sight as your trusty half-gallon of Scotch nears emptiness.

Libra | Sept. 23 to Oct. 22

Financial reward is most definitely in your future. Keep scooping out those “take-a-penny” trays at the truck stops along I-90.

Scorpio | Oct. 23 to Nov. 21

Scorpio should be ever-vigilant during the waning of the September moon. If you sleep at all during the coming month, demons will grind your corpse.

Sagittarius | Nov. 22 to Dec. 21

Earth and Love magicks are strong in the sign of Sagittarius this month. You will be buried alive by your spouse.

Capricorn | Dec. 22 to Jan. 19

Beware of circular cycles this fortnight. Launch a preemptive strike against every round thing in your community.

Aquarius | Jan. 20 to Feb. 18

Friends and family members will continue to disregard your sage advice. It’s up to you to decide whether or not they still deserve to have ears.

Pisces | Feb. 19 to March 20

Despite your frequent warnings, the nurse will continue to pooh-pooh your fear of linoleum.

Aries | March 21 to April 19

The stars indicate that it’s time to lose the love handles. Sew yourself into a bag with a dozen starving ferrets.

Taurus | April 20 to May 20

If you are the type of person who faints at the sight of blood, you should plan to spend most of next week unconscious.

Gemini | May 21 to June 20

A crazy mix-up will result in you being fatally stabbed as crooked New York cops mistake you for Serpico, the internal affairs informer.

Cancer | June 21 to July 22

Venus descendant in the sign Cancer means trouble in your love life. Your wife will soon discover three different-colored lipstick stains on your underpants.

Leo | July 23 to Aug. 22

Constantly rising pressure on both the business front and at home can be easily relieved by drilling massive holes in your skull.

https://www.theonion.com/your-horoscopes-week-of-september-4-2018-1828789004

 

[steve_bank]

In Ca, of course, there are consulting astrologists serving the business community. It takes all kinds as the saying goes.

Occult and mysticism is buried deep in our culture. TV show Charmed and others. Star Wars and the force.

Nancy Reagan had an astrologer come to the WH.

 

[phands]

consider it a good thing to have some experience with something before commenting on it.

Not really. I think Ebola is a terrible thing.

 

[steve_bank]

Many hits on astrology and business.

https://www.astrologers.com/afa-certified-astrologers/united_states

The American Federation of Astrologers takes pride in its examination and certification program, which has been in existence since 1960. It was designed - and continues to this day - to promote AFA's educational mission and the advancement of ethical astrology.

Candidates are not limited to any one system of mathematics, house cusp division, or school of study. Each, however, must demonstrate a high level of accuracy in chart calculation and interpretation.

AFA offers exams in natal astrology at three levels of proficiency: student, professional, and teacher. The student exam is now offered in Spanish. Each of these is a separate examination, and you must pass the student exam before taking the professional exam, and pass the professional exam before taking the teacher exam. There are NO exceptions.

The requirements and expertise needed to prepare for each exam are as follows:

Student Exam: You will be required to erect mathematically correct natal and progressed charts. Your calculations, including rough notes, must be turned in with test papers at the conclusion of the exam. House cusps and planetary positions must be corrected to the nearest minute. The exam may include questions and calculations for south latitude and east longitude. In addition, you will be required to calculate the natal and progressed declinations and to complete an aspectarian. The interpretation sections of the exam are designed to demonstrate your ability in natal chart delineation as well as your forecasting ability using progressions and transits. Duration: 8 hours.
Professional Exam: The same basic requirements as for the student exam are included in the professional exam. In addition you will be required to demonstrate a more comprehensive ability in chart delineation and various techniques such as solar returns, horary, rectification, and mundane. Click here for Professional Exam Guidelines and Suggested Reading List. Duration: 8 hours.
Teacher Exam: This exam has more more emphasis on theory: a working knowledge of chart calculation, the various branches of astro

American Federation Of Astrologers, certified.

https://www.pavitrajyotish.com/strength-reading-for-business/

To make progressive headway in business is not a cakewalk for everyone, bearing in mind the competitive scenario of the marketplace one has to put up with. Under such pressing circumstances, it is up to you to walk in and face the challenge like a warrior or walk out and give up. The odds will surely take a litmus test of your willpower and cause to overshadow it with a sense of disparity. This is where you need to introspect and know your true business potential. Astrological business horoscope is therefore completely meant for people like you.

Such horoscope is a composite portfolio of guidance and practical suggestions, helping you with the right business opportunities, enabling you to understand what risks to avoid and new business opportunities to embrace. The suggested remedies in our astrological horoscope will help you get along with the stress faced in your business venture using an apt business growth analysis. The horoscope is what conveys the strength reading for your business.

 

[bilby]

consider it a good thing to have some experience with something before commenting on it.

Not really. I think Ebola is a terrible thing.

YOU DONT NO THAT YOU NEVER HAD EBOLA SO SHUT UP YOUR JUST A SHILL FOR BIG HEALTH!!1!!ONE!



The importance of direct personal experience as a qualification for an informed opinion seems to me to be based on the rather common, but rather stupid, idea that predictions made by experts based on theory are somehow valueless in the face of poorly remembered unrecorded observations by people who had no idea what was happening and have even less clue about the theoretical underpinnings of the events that they experienced.

I was once informed that there are seven states in Australia. I pointed out that there were six, and was told that there must be seven, because the seven points of the federation star represent the seven states. I pointed out that there are six, and that the seven points of the federation star represent the six states, plus one point for the three territories. I listed the six states, and asked what was the 'missing' seventh state. I was told that as I wasn't born in Australia, and my interlocutor was, she knew better than me, and that I should try listening more, because I might learn something. The suggestion that we consult a map, or the Internet, to settle the question definitively was considered by her to be a deep personal insult. *

Such is the epistemology of the 'personal experience is better than knowledge' brigade. It's yet another failed methodology that attempts to bypass the scientific method while seeking facts - And like many such failed methodologies (divine revelation being the obvious one), it remains hugely popular, and criticism of it is often treated as a personal attack.

It is a good thing to have knowledge of something before commenting on it. No experience necessary.









* Note that this anecdote serves to demonstrate that I have direct personal experience of people using direct personal experience as though it were an acceptable form of evidence, or path to the truth; So if anyone thinks that it is, then they must also now accept that I am qualified to comment on it.

 

[Politesse]

consider it a good thing to have some experience with something before commenting on it.

Not really. I think Ebola is a terrible thing.

So do I. And were I to be treated for it, I would very much prefer to be treated by a physician who has some experience with infectious diseases.

 

[Politesse]

consider it a good thing to have some experience with something before commenting on it.

Not really. I think Ebola is a terrible thing.

YOU DONT NO THAT YOU NEVER HAD EBOLA SO SHUT UP YOUR JUST A SHILL FOR BIG HEALTH!!1!!ONE!



The importance of direct personal experience as a qualification for an informed opinion seems to me to be based on the rather common, but rather stupid, idea that predictions made by experts based on theory are somehow valueless in the face of poorly remembered unrecorded observations by people who had no idea what was happening and have even less clue about the theoretical underpinnings of the events that they experienced.

I was once informed that there are seven states in Australia. I pointed out that there were six, and was told that there must be seven, because the seven points of the federation star represent the seven states. I pointed out that there are six, and that the seven points of the federation star represent the six states, plus one point for the three territories. I listed the six states, and asked what was the 'missing' seventh state. I was told that as I wasn't born in Australia, and my interlocutor was, she knew better than me, and that I should try listening more, because I might learn something. The suggestion that we consult a map, or the Internet, to settle the question definitively was considered by her to be a deep personal insult. *

Such is the epistemology of the 'personal experience is better than knowledge' brigade. It's yet another failed methodology that attempts to bypass the scientific method while seeking facts - And like many such failed methodologies (divine revelation being the obvious one), it remains hugely popular, and criticism of it is often treated as a personal attack.

It is a good thing to have knowledge of something before commenting on it. No experience necessary.









* Note that this anecdote serves to demonstrate that I have direct personal experience of people using direct personal experience as though it were an acceptable form of evidence, or path to the truth; So if anyone thinks that it is, then they must also now accept that I am qualified to comment on it.

I would see your point, if anyone were in fact presenting objective information here, as opposed to gut reactions based on pre-existing religious opinions.

 

[phands]

So do I. And were I to be treated for it, I would very much prefer to be treated by a physician who has some experience with infectious diseases.

That was a somewhat disingenuous response. Your original statement mentioned commenting on something, not a subject matter expert treating a third person.

 

[Politesse]

So do I. And were I to be treated for it, I would very much prefer to be treated by a physician who has some experience with infectious diseases.

That was a somewhat disingenuous response. Your original statement mentioned commenting on something, not a subject matter expert treating a third person.

So your argument is that one should have a right to comment on Ebola, based on having heard of it before? Indeed you can, but there's no reason for me to take your commentary seriously, especially if I happen to have more experience with the disease.

 

[Peez]

Politesse:
I would see your point, if anyone were in fact presenting objective information here, as opposed to gut reactions based on pre-existing religious opinions.

Just for clarity, could you point out the "gut reactions based on pre-existing religious opinions", and perhaps why you characterize them as such?

Peez

 

[bilby]

So do I. And were I to be treated for it, I would very much prefer to be treated by a physician who has some experience with infectious diseases.

That was a somewhat disingenuous response. Your original statement mentioned commenting on something, not a subject matter expert treating a third person.

So your argument is that one should have a right to comment on Ebola, based on having heard of it before? Indeed you can, but there's no reason for me to take your commentary seriously, especially if I happen to have more experience with the disease.

For hundreds of years, people with no formal education have suffered and died from Ebola. Their direct experience never got them any closer to a vaccine or cure, until a bunch of doctors who had never even contracted the disease had the bare faced cheek to imagine that they knew better than the people with actual experience.

Your epistemology is deeply flawed. Experience isn't a very good indicator of knowledge, and the latter is often better obtained without the former.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So do I. And were I to be treated for it, I would very much prefer to be treated by a physician who has some experience with infectious diseases.

That was a somewhat disingenuous response. Your original statement mentioned commenting on something, not a subject matter expert treating a third person.

So your argument is that one should have a right to comment on Ebola, based on having heard of it before? Indeed you can, but there's no reason for me to take your commentary seriously, especially if I happen to have more experience with the disease.

I’m curious. What does this have to do with astrology and its completely hollow existence. Astrology has never predicted an actual specific event. Its claims or predictions are so vague that they are rendered meaningless. And the whole thing is supposedly attached to 8% segments of the population without any actual observed similarities between people born in the same part of the year?