At this point, does collusion even matter?

[Elixir]

It's already apparent that El Cheato rose to the presidency by regurgitating Russian Fake News talking points, either out of a co-ordinated effort with Uncle Vlad or as Vlad's unwitting puppet.
Cheato continues to fawn over Putin while dishonoring the office he holds. He has made every effort to destroy the credibility of both houses of congress, the intelligence community and the judiciary. IOW, he is destroying people's confidence in the ENTIRE American government.

Why should we care whether he is Putin's witless dupe or willing accomplice? Sure, a willing accomplice would make him liable for a treason charge, but in the same breath, if he's "just" a clueless pawn, that should be more than enough reason to remove him from office. At the end of the day nobody will be better off if he is jailed or put to death, than if he is simply sent home. I think that puppet vs partner question is a distinction without real meaning for the American public - as long as it is recognized that his ascent was and remains illegitimate and steps are undertaken to get rid of him.

Bannon & Co will try to make sure that this meaningless distinction becomes an 8-years debate, and while people (plus the intel community, congress and probably the courts) split hairs over the question of whether he is a traitor or "just" an idiot, Cheato can persist in furthering the Bannonist vision of tearing down the American government.
Impeachment proceedings should begin - yesterday. There is NO QUESTION that his interests have nothing to do with the duties of the office to which Putin got him elected.

 

[barbos]

Stop this nonsense already, Putin has written off Trump already.

 

[Elixir]

Stop this nonsense already, Putin has written off Trump already.

What your corrupt Leader does is not relevant to this thread - this is about OUR corrupt "leader".
Tell it to someone who cares, comrade.

 

[Will Wiley]

It's already apparent that El Cheato rose to the presidency by regurgitating Russian Fake News talking points, either out of a co-ordinated effort with Uncle Vlad

That line needs to finally abandoned.
Why the Russia Story Is a Minefield for Democrats and the Media

Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper appeared on Meet the Press this past weekend to discuss the Trump-Russia scandal. Chuck Todd asked: Were there improper contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian officials?


JAMES CLAPPER: We did not include any evidence in our report, and I say, "our," that's N.S.A., F.B.I. and C.I.A., with my office, the Director of National Intelligence, that had anything, that had any reflection of collusion between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians. There was no evidence of that…

CHUCK TODD: I understand that. But does it exist?

JAMES CLAPPER: Not to my knowledge.

and while people (plus the intel community, congress and probably the courts) split hairs over the question of whether he is a traitor or "just" an idiot, Cheato can persist in furthering the Bannonist vision of tearing down the American government.

It doesn't sound like Clapper is splitting hairs.

 

[Will Wiley]

It's already apparent that El Cheato rose to the presidency by regurgitating Russian Fake News talking points,

What is the evidence of this?

 

[Elixir]

It's already apparent that El Cheato rose to the presidency by regurgitating Russian Fake News talking points, either out of a co-ordinated effort with Uncle Vlad or as Vlad's unwitting puppet.
Cheato continues to fawn over Putin while dishonoring the office he holds. He has made every effort to destroy the credibility of both houses of congress, the intelligence community and the judiciary. IOW, he is destroying people's confidence in the ENTIRE American government.

Why should we care whether he is Putin's witless dupe or willing accomplice? Sure, a willing accomplice would make him liable for a treason charge, but in the same breath, if he's "just" a clueless pawn, that should be more than enough reason to remove him from office. At the end of the day nobody will be better off if he is jailed or put to death, than if he is simply sent home. I think that puppet vs partner question is a distinction without real meaning for the American public - as long as it is recognized that his ascent was and remains illegitimate and steps are undertaken to get rid of him.

Bannon & Co will try to make sure that this meaningless distinction becomes an 8-years debate, and while people (plus the intel community, congress and probably the courts) split hairs over the question of whether he is a traitor or "just" an idiot, Cheato can persist in furthering the Bannonist vision of tearing down the American government.
Impeachment proceedings should begin - yesterday. There is NO QUESTION that his interests have nothing to do with the duties of the office to which Putin got him elected.

Further to the OP... in addition to the office of the presidency, both houses of congress, the intelligence community and the judiciary, I forgot to mention the fourth estate. Of course Cheato likes to attack the media, as does any petty despot. So here we have a so-called President who is assiduously undermining every pillar of our democracy, in a coordinated attack. Of course the executive branch is suffering the greatest and most rapid decline in effectiveness and public confidence, but there is significant work underway to blow up the other two branches and render mainstream media irrelevant.

Again, I observe that it doesn't matter why Cheato is doing this. We have to make it stop, one way or another.

It's already apparent that El Cheato rose to the presidency by regurgitating Russian Fake News talking points,

What is the evidence of this?

ap·par·ent
əˈperənt/
adjective
adjective: apparent

clearly visible or understood; obvious.​

 

[whichphilosophy]

It's already apparent that El Cheato rose to the presidency by regurgitating Russian Fake News talking points, either out of a co-ordinated effort with Uncle Vlad or as Vlad's unwitting puppet.
Cheato continues to fawn over Putin while dishonoring the office he holds. He has made every effort to destroy the credibility of both houses of congress, the intelligence community and the judiciary. IOW, he is destroying people's confidence in the ENTIRE American government.

Why should we care whether he is Putin's witless dupe or willing accomplice? Sure, a willing accomplice would make him liable for a treason charge, but in the same breath, if he's "just" a clueless pawn, that should be more than enough reason to remove him from office. At the end of the day nobody will be better off if he is jailed or put to death, than if he is simply sent home. I think that puppet vs partner question is a distinction without real meaning for the American public - as long as it is recognized that his ascent was and remains illegitimate and steps are undertaken to get rid of him.

Bannon & Co will try to make sure that this meaningless distinction becomes an 8-years debate, and while people (plus the intel community, congress and probably the courts) split hairs over the question of whether he is a traitor or "just" an idiot, Cheato can persist in furthering the Bannonist vision of tearing down the American government.
Impeachment proceedings should begin - yesterday. There is NO QUESTION that his interests have nothing to do with the duties of the office to which Putin got him elected.

Re your first point, I thought Trump was elected into power. There was enough on CNN and MSNBC and other media against him but that didn't elect Clinton. No one has been able to demonstrate how Putin got him elected. There is nothing to suggest Trump is fawning over or fornicating with Putin. That certainly would not be a pretty picture.

 

[scombrid]

Stop this nonsense already, Putin has written off Trump already.

They've written off Trump.

They've not written off continuing the internet campaign to disrupt western powers and alliances that stand in the way of Russian aggression. They engineered Brexit and Trump's victory. They won't stop until the EU and NATO are fractured to the point that there can be no resistance to Russia. Getting the US all fucked up and the EPA neutered is a bonus for Russia and the multinational corps that want to do business with Russia.

Alex Jones and the nationalists with their paranoid conspiracy fantasies are patsies. They think they are "awake" to the lies of the gubmint. They are always warning about "cointelpro" campaigns wherein the gubmint agents and shills create fake persona's on social media. Then the Alex Jonsians turn around and unquestioningly accept a lot of fake bullshit when it agrees with their "theories". The right wing American patsies are totally blind to all the "cointelpro" fake accounts that the Russians are running simply because those Russian accounts are gleefully sharing and promoting all the stupid conspiracy shit that the Alex Jones people generate from Truther to Birther to anti-vax and anti-GMO.

 

[Elixir]

Stop this nonsense already, Putin has written off Trump already.

They've written off Trump.

They've not written off continuing the internet campaign to disrupt western powers and alliances that stand in the way of Russian aggression. They engineered Brexit and Trump's victory. They won't stop until the EU and NATO are fractured to the point that there can be no resistance to Russia. Getting the US all fucked up and the EPA neutered is a bonus for Russia and the multinational corps that want to do business with Russia.

Alex Jones and the nationalists with their paranoid conspiracy fantasies are patsies. They think they are "awake" to the lies of the gubmint. They are always warning about "cointelpro" campaigns wherein the gubmint agents and shills create fake persona's on social media. Then the Alex Jonsians turn around and unquestioningly accept a lot of fake bullshit when it agrees with their "theories". The right wing American patsies are totally blind to all the "cointelpro" fake accounts that the Russians are running simply because those Russian accounts are gleefully sharing and promoting all the stupid conspiracy shit that the Alex Jones people generate from Truther to Birther to anti-vax and anti-GMO.

Those auto-incursions into social media are becoming a little more transparent lately, at least to some people. You can almost smell the trolls in the comments sections, trying to keep Bernie (their worst nightmare, because they know he would make the US socially strong again) separated from the mainstream Dem party. among other drums they are trained to bang.

 

[barbos]

Stop this nonsense already, Putin has written off Trump already.

They've written off Trump.

They've not written off continuing the internet campaign to disrupt western powers and alliances that stand in the way of Russian aggression. They engineered Brexit and Trump's victory. They won't stop until the EU and NATO are fractured to the point that there can be no resistance to Russia. Getting the US all fucked up and the EPA neutered is a bonus for Russia and the multinational corps that want to do business with Russia.

Alex Jones and the nationalists with their paranoid conspiracy fantasies are patsies. They think they are "awake" to the lies of the gubmint. They are always warning about "cointelpro" campaigns wherein the gubmint agents and shills create fake persona's on social media. Then the Alex Jonsians turn around and unquestioningly accept a lot of fake bullshit when it agrees with their "theories". The right wing American patsies are totally blind to all the "cointelpro" fake accounts that the Russians are running simply because those Russian accounts are gleefully sharing and promoting all the stupid conspiracy shit that the Alex Jones people generate from Truther to Birther to anti-vax and anti-GMO.

These russkies are so damn smart.

- - - Updated - - -

 

[barbos]

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yea, you guys were a great contributor to Trump's win. Not the only factor, but a huge factor. Here are a few examples:
1. Russian leaked stories dominated the news. You guys deliberately dripped the anti Clinton news each day, never allowing her to tell her story and sell her strategy.
2. Your side created this false meme that there was a dastardly conspiracy to keep Bernie from winning. He had no chance from the beginning. This created a civil war in the dem party that hurt voter turn out. Of course it's not easy for new commers to win. The incumbent always has great advantages. That's our system. But your side created this false belief that dems were evil and trying to harm the Bernsters.
3. There is evidence that supports that Russia funded "troll farms" which spread fake news about Clinton.

There were many factors that contributed to Clinton's loss. She ran a terrible campaign. She assumed that she would win. She overlooked some states. Comey hurt her. The press. And etc and etc. But the Russians greatly helped defeat her as well.

 

[barbos]

 

[whichphilosophy]

Yea, you guys were a great contributor to Trump's win. Not the only factor, but a huge factor. Here are a few examples:
1. Russian leaked stories dominated the news. You guys deliberately dripped the anti Clinton news each day, never allowing her to tell her story and sell her strategy.
2. Your side created this false meme that there was a dastardly conspiracy to keep Bernie from winning. He had no chance from the beginning. This created a civil war in the dem party that hurt voter turn out. Of course it's not easy for new commers to win. The incumbent always has great advantages. That's our system. But your side created this false belief that dems were evil and trying to harm the Bernsters.
3. There is evidence that supports that Russia funded "troll farms" which spread fake news about Clinton.

There were many factors that contributed to Clinton's loss. She ran a terrible campaign. She assumed that she would win. She overlooked some states. Comey hurt her. The press. And etc and etc. But the Russians greatly helped defeat her as well.

1. From the UK I saw mainly anti-Trump news media. Clinton did have an opportunity to sell her strategy as she was propagated 24/7 on CNN, MSNBC, The Washington Post and the New York Times. Today the BBC continues a negative anti Trump campaign but giving airtime to critics. At least CNN allows some debates.
2. I don't understand how this worked. Sanders has been duped into supporting the Fake Women's Rights movement which is really an attempt to remove Trump and not focus on Women's rights. For example those who produced or participated in the film called the Honor Diaries would not be welcome. This is a group of Muslims, Atheists, Jews and one conservative group (Clarion project). As I provided on other threads. The Women's Strike was managed by a Cabal of 8 people, 7 of which are revolutionary Marxists. Out of these 7, 1 is a convicted terrorist and is due for deportation in a plea deal to avoid 10 year's in prison. Another supplied guns that resulted in a killing of a judge some years ago. NB she was not convicted in relation to the shooting.

3. Russian Propagation of this sort stems back to 2003 (Web Brigades). However did many really take the Pizzagate story seriously or Trump bonking in a Russian hotel.

The Democrats won the popular vote but lost key votes from blue collar workers and correctly Trump is making a stand against pushing jobs abroad. Someone should do this in the UK where many jobs have been lost as firms moved to poorer EU countries with EU grants. The divisions in the US are being fanned by left wing elements rather than Democrats.

The parties should be working together against terrorism, overpriced but well principled healthcare, finding out why the UAE banned the Council on Islamic American Relations (CAIR) as a terrorist organisation since this is regarded as a friend of the Democrats.

 

[Harry Bosch]

You betcha buddy! There hasn't been an election in the history of mankind that didn't have some kind of manipulation. Not one. Bernie came out of nowhere. He started as an unknown to most Americans. And yet he finished second (a distant second BTW). Quite a feat. If this were a Russian election, he would have been poisoned! In most other elections in history he wouldn't have had a trust. The incumbent always is the front runner. The difference here is that Russians created a false meme that there was something otherworldly about HRC incumbent advantages. There was some deep dark conspiracy that the DNC were plotting against the Bernsters. This conspiracy BS dampened democratic turnout and allowed a minority party to control 100% of the US.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yea, you guys were a great contributor to Trump's win. Not the only factor, but a huge factor. Here are a few examples:
1. Russian leaked stories dominated the news. You guys deliberately dripped the anti Clinton news each day, never allowing her to tell her story and sell her strategy.
2. Your side created this false meme that there was a dastardly conspiracy to keep Bernie from winning. He had no chance from the beginning. This created a civil war in the dem party that hurt voter turn out. Of course it's not easy for new commers to win. The incumbent always has great advantages. That's our system. But your side created this false belief that dems were evil and trying to harm the Bernsters.
3. There is evidence that supports that Russia funded "troll farms" which spread fake news about Clinton.

There were many factors that contributed to Clinton's loss. She ran a terrible campaign. She assumed that she would win. She overlooked some states. Comey hurt her. The press. And etc and etc. But the Russians greatly helped defeat her as well.

Uhh, you think that Brexit will increase employment in the UK? How do you figure that? Do you have a link? Most of what I've been reading is that Brexit will cause the loss of many jobs, and many higher paid tech and banking jobs will be lost. The upcoming trade wars in the US will most likely kill more jobs than create as well.

 

[fromderinside]

It's already apparent that El Cheato rose to the presidency by regurgitating Russian Fake News talking points,

What is the evidence of this?

You questioning it for one.

Can will wiley or barbos provide any evidence they are not fake news insurgents.

I the answer is 'no' then I'm not going to bold your member names any more. You two will suffer, by that action, the ignominy of being shown publicly incapable of demonstrating any measure of rational fairness.

 

[Harry Bosch]

It's already apparent that El Cheato rose to the presidency by regurgitating Russian Fake News talking points, either out of a co-ordinated effort with Uncle Vlad or as Vlad's unwitting puppet.
Cheato continues to fawn over Putin while dishonoring the office he holds. He has made every effort to destroy the credibility of both houses of congress, the intelligence community and the judiciary. IOW, he is destroying people's confidence in the ENTIRE American government.

Why should we care whether he is Putin's witless dupe or willing accomplice? Sure, a willing accomplice would make him liable for a treason charge, but in the same breath, if he's "just" a clueless pawn, that should be more than enough reason to remove him from office. At the end of the day nobody will be better off if he is jailed or put to death, than if he is simply sent home. I think that puppet vs partner question is a distinction without real meaning for the American public - as long as it is recognized that his ascent was and remains illegitimate and steps are undertaken to get rid of him.

Bannon & Co will try to make sure that this meaningless distinction becomes an 8-years debate, and while people (plus the intel community, congress and probably the courts) split hairs over the question of whether he is a traitor or "just" an idiot, Cheato can persist in furthering the Bannonist vision of tearing down the American government.
Impeachment proceedings should begin - yesterday. There is NO QUESTION that his interests have nothing to do with the duties of the office to which Putin got him elected.

The reason why getting to the bottom of the story is to identify a possible Quid Pro Quo before it occurs. We believe that Trump is probably pretty indebted to the Russians for bankrolling him. And now Putin helped get him elected. So Trump is pretty indebted to Putin. Now that this has been exposed, it will be more difficult for Putin to try to get favors from Trump. In fact, Trump may overcorrect since this has been exposed.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't think it should bother anyone that Russia (or any other country) tried to influence an electoral outcome in the USA. We do it all the time in other countries. Nor do I think it should be a surprise that Russia did try to influence the election. After all, there is ample evidence that Russia is not an isolationist country that leaves other countries alone.

I think whether there was tacit collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia is an important question, not so much for the actual collusion but the implications for the US going forward. If Trump and his surrogates are willing to make deals with foreign countries that place their own self-interests above the interests of the USA, that is a big problem.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I don't think it should bother anyone that Russia (or any other country) tried to influence an electoral outcome in the USA. We do it all the time in other countries. Nor do I think it should be a surprise that Russia did try to influence the election. After all, there is ample evidence that Russia is not an isolationist country that leaves other countries alone.

I think whether there was tacit collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia is an important question, not so much for the actual collusion but the implications for the US going forward. If Trump and his surrogates are willing to make deals with foreign countries that place their own self-interests above the interests of the USA, that is a big problem.

Totally agree with your post. We need to know if there was tacit collusion, and if there was, prevent any quid pro quo (weakening of Nato?)before it happens.