unapologetic
50+ years without a god
I live 15 minutes from Centralia. (look it up)
I went to a SF con in State College, the '80s.
From grass to ice cream in under 24 hours.
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Atheists and Religious people. Are their views changing?
- Thread starter southernhybrid
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I went to a SF con in State College, the '80s.
From grass to ice cream in under 24 hours.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
I've been to Centralia several times -- once with my dachshund Birdie, who, like me, thought it was about the weirdest place on earth. She saw the steam coming out of the ground, put her nose to it continually, and kept jumping back. (For the uninitiated, Centralia is an old mountain town that's situated over an underground coal fire that's been burning for 60 years. Almost all the houses have been torn down. Steam issues out of crevices in the ground. If you want the freakiest family outing imaginable, take the folks to Centralia.)
Sidebar: do the local Christians fantasize that Centralia is actually situated over Hell?
Sidebar: do the local Christians fantasize that Centralia is actually situated over Hell?
southernhybrid
Contributor
I wouldn't say I have a warm and fuzzy view of religion. I'm certainly not considering the people like Moms for Liberty to be warm and fuzzy. They are perpetuating a theocratic view of things. They are extremists, and I've even met a few atheists who I would label as extremists over the years. I think they are probably rare. But, religion comes in many varieties, from very liberal and open minded to extremist. You can't compare a liberal Baptist group, like the American Baptists, who are strong supporters of the SCS and who welcome members of the LBGTQ community into their churches with the extremists. There used to be a poster here known as Reverend Joshua, who was the pastor of a very liberal Baptist church in ATL. A group of us met him and his wife once in ATL and had a wonderful time, comparing how much we had in common, when it came to our values. The Conservative Baptist or the Southern Baptist organization is the extreme opposite. My childhood church was associated with the Conservative Baptist. They were very extreme, although they at least valued the SCS, so things have changed for the worse a lot since those days.
My point, which I think you might be missing, in the OP is similar to the article that I linked by David Silverman, if you read it, you might understand what I'm saying. We atheists often tend to only look at the negative aspects of religion, without considering all the charity and community many create. Of course, each church is different, but I think we are wrong to deny the power of myth and only look at the worst aspects of religion.
One of my favorite books on Atheism, is "Atheism for Dummies" by Dale McGowan Phd. I've met him and read his book twice. He's an atheist who discusses how we should try to unite with liberal believers since we have more in common with them, than not. Some people crave the type of community, support and opportunity to do charity work, as well as some beliefs that give them hope, even if those beliefs are mythological in nature. As people move away from religion, even if they don't become atheists, we have nothing to offer them compared to what the religious community does, which I think is Silverman's primary point. Of course, not everyone feels that need, but I have always enjoyed my atheist groups, even though they lack many aspects of what religious groups do, when it comes to helping the members of the groups or offering opportunities for volunteer or charity work.
I discussed this a little bit last night with just a couple of the atheists I met up with. We had 9 people there last night, which is a pretty good number for our group. The two I talked too, understood my point, even if they are both strong atheists. They told me that our tiny group is the only chance they get to socialize and feel a little sense of community. David Silverman talks about the need for this too.
And, since you mentioned hell, I'm not talking about the Christians who even believe in hell, or if they do, they don't believe that people who believe differently are headed to eternal torture. There are many ways to interpret their Bible and many versions of it as well. I've met some very liberal Muslims many years ago, who spoke at the Atlanta Freethought Society, shortly after 911. I think they wanted us to know that not all Muslims are extremists. I doubt they thought we atheists are headed for hell. So, no. I'm not talking about extremist religions. I'm thinking of the more liberal versions. The little church we visited was nothing like the one I grew up attending. The people were full of love and the service was a lot of fun, for the most part. I'm still a strong atheist, but I was very impressed by these rather humble people who felt so much joy when they met at their church. No. I'm not going to attend a church on a regular basis, but I do understand why some atheists do become active in churches. I've known 3 as well as one who was fairly agnostic. I also met an older man, many years ago, who became an atheist late in life and left his church. It was so obvious to me that he missed the sense of community that he received from his church, and our little group wasn't able to replace that. Their churches filled needs that they couldn't find otherwise.
If people don't want the possibility of a theocratic government, they need to vote blue, no matter who, as the saying goes, instead of looking for perfection or getting everything they want. One party is heading us toward an autocratic form of government that may perpetuate theocracy, while the other party respects the SCS and our experiment with democracy. I just hope that all the young people, minorities, and swing voters will come to their senses and make the only choice that will help preserve democracy. But, we can discuss that in the political forum.
southernhybrid
Contributor
I was just rereading most of this thread, and again want to make myself clear since I'm not sure that everyone has read most of my previous posts. I mentioned that the White Christian Nationalists are a potential threat to the nation, not just to atheists. I mentioned it several times, but I'll add a link with statistics.
https://religionnews.com/2023/02/08...nationalists-and-most-are-white-evangelicals/
These are certainly not the Christians I'm applauding, although even some of them in my area do provide a lot of charitable services to non members of their churches. They are still a minority, so that's another reason for us to unite with the more reasonable believers, especially when it comes to politics. I don't know if any of my Christian acquaintances support a theocracy, but none of my Black Christian friends or my close white Christian friends do. I live in a small Black majority city and there is far less racism here than any place I've ever lived, including New Jersey where I grew up and attended the extremist fundamentalist Christian church as a child. One of my close Black Christian friends is very frightened of the possibility of theocrats coming to power. She knows I'm an atheist and has never judged me or told me she will pray for me etc. I feel the same way about her. If her church gives her comfort and community, and she is loving and accepting of all kinds of people, why would I judge her for being a Christian? She and I vote in every single election, both local and national. Sadly a lot of poor people, minorities and young people don't. We must defeat the Christian Nationalists, but they are still a fairly small minority, only 10% strongly support the concept, so let's not be terrified, when over 30% now identify has not having any particular religious beliefs.
https://religionnews.com/2023/02/08...nationalists-and-most-are-white-evangelicals/
These are certainly not the Christians I'm applauding, although even some of them in my area do provide a lot of charitable services to non members of their churches. They are still a minority, so that's another reason for us to unite with the more reasonable believers, especially when it comes to politics. I don't know if any of my Christian acquaintances support a theocracy, but none of my Black Christian friends or my close white Christian friends do. I live in a small Black majority city and there is far less racism here than any place I've ever lived, including New Jersey where I grew up and attended the extremist fundamentalist Christian church as a child. One of my close Black Christian friends is very frightened of the possibility of theocrats coming to power. She knows I'm an atheist and has never judged me or told me she will pray for me etc. I feel the same way about her. If her church gives her comfort and community, and she is loving and accepting of all kinds of people, why would I judge her for being a Christian? She and I vote in every single election, both local and national. Sadly a lot of poor people, minorities and young people don't. We must defeat the Christian Nationalists, but they are still a fairly small minority, only 10% strongly support the concept, so let's not be terrified, when over 30% now identify has not having any particular religious beliefs.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
Reminds me of the documentary "Losing Our Religion" where Dennet says it's one thing for a parishioner to lose belief but something else entirely for the minister to lose that faith. Atheists of a few decades ago were kinda like those ministers of today. There just wasn't anyone else to talk to about it. That's changed and continues to change for the better, Dennet says they are like gays in the 50's.
BTW that documentary is still available for free on Tubi.
Changing? Most people understand a belief in something more seems to match observation better. No god or gods of any type and my god only rely on way too much faith. Only if people understood that belief and anti-religion are not mutually exclusive. But the leaders of atheism and theism do not want us to think like that. Fundy think type atheist are as dangerous as fundy think type theist.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
Spell it out: what danger is there in, as you're implying, categorical atheism?
unapologetic
50+ years without a god
Screw you. I wasn't listening to any leader when I kicked religion to the curb. (around 1970) Observation shows that religion is a scam. No faith is needed to stop believing in the heaven/hell protection racket. All that is needed is a clear head, free from cultural indoctrination.
And yes, 'most people' CAN be wrong. So don't try that argument again.
Jimmy Higgins
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unapologetic
50+ years without a god
Hay SIB;
You claim to be an atheist, So what leader did YOU fallow to get here?
And why? Since you think 'observation' favors 'something more'.
You claim to be an atheist, So what leader did YOU fallow to get here?
And why? Since you think 'observation' favors 'something more'.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
As I s have posted in the past my motto is 'neuter an atheist or theist be'. Atheism as opposed to being atheist can be as ideological as the theist.
If you want to be really free of religion give up both atheism and theism.
I use atheist on the forum because it is convenient, In the real world I use it if I need to end being engaged by a Christian.
I don;t walk around being atheist. I don't read atheist books and have no idea who is who in the atheism community.
How did I get to my views? Some quote Dawkins and others much like theists quote the bible. How we get to a point is complicated. For me it was in part debate on the forum and mostly living out in the eral word and getting know diferent people.
How do some on the forum reject gods and religion and get grounded in science, and some beocme biblical liter lists? Probably chance is part of it.
I'ask what I take to be an obvious question. If you need an atheist leader how did that person become atheist and a leader?
Your post above is like a theist argument. Theists argue over how one becomes a Chrtian and what that means, atheists write books on what it menas to be an atheist. Ping Pong. Like the Yin Yang synbul, one flows into the other in continuous motion.
My perspectives change with time.
unapologetic
50+ years without a god
Are you SIB?
unapologetic
50+ years without a god
There are several problems with SIB's post:
(1) What "most people understand" Doesn't make it true. god or no-god is not up to a popular vote.
(2) "No god or gods of any type and my god only rely on way too much faith."
Is a rewording of that old theist trope 'Atheism takes more faith than theism'.
Atheism is not a faith, it is a logical conclusion, based on observation that all gods are a human invention.
(3) "belief and anti-religion are not mutually exclusive."
But religion has always FOUGHT against non-believers, and followers of other religions. (and continues to)
We can not afford to be the first to lay down arms.
(4) "But the leaders of atheism and ..."
This is just fucking insulting.
(5) "Fundy think type atheist are as dangerous as fundy think type theist."
It is SIB who is thinking like a fundy, see #2 above.
(6) "belief in something more seems to match observation better."
SIB has said this in several posts, which contradicts his claim to be atheist.
southernhybrid
Contributor
Why do you care so much about that post? SIB is under no obligation to respond to you if SIB prefers not to, especially when it might be that you've been perceived as being a bit abrasive, even if that wasn't your intention.
I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to say there. I've never heard of that atheist trope, or if I have, I've forgotten it. I know that atheism doesn't take faith, but some religious people perceive what they believe to be true. Our brains allow us to perceive all kinds of weird things, and I think some people are more drawn to mythology than others. For example, many years ago, there was a new atheist who had left fundamentalist Christianity. Some of us met him in person too, etc. I think it was less than a year after he left religion, his grandmother died. Then, he had a, let's call it a dream or a hallucination that she told him she was in the afterlife etc. He never went back to Christianity, as far as I know, but he did go back to believing in a higher power and obviously, some supernatural elements. That happens sometimes. Some people simply don't feel comfortable as atheists, so they seek out something else. At least that's who I see it.
I agree. Atheism is usually based on one's inability to believe in supernatural elements, including religious ones. Sometimes it's the result of a long journey away from the religion of our childhood. Sometimes, if one has never been exposed to it, it comes very naturally. Gods were obviously all created in man's image.
Some people don't want to think about it, so they stay where they feel comfortable. My sister is one of them. I think she still believes for emotional reasons and a chance to make friends. She suffers from anxiety, so I assume her beliefs give her some relief.
I disagree, at least when it comes to more liberal and moderate versions of religion. Most people have become more reasonable when it comes to people identifying as atheists, other than the White Christian Nationalists and any extremists. They might react negatively at first, but once they get to know us, they usually become more reasonable. I've had Christian friends for years in many different places that never cared or criticized me for being an atheist. Some even thought it was interesting to meet someone who was very open about her atheism. One said it was cool to meet an atheist, as one of her sons was agnostic. I find this to be true, even here in the Bible Belt, where I've lived for most of my adult life. But sure. I've worked with some fundies who were simply mean, but they may have disliked me for other reasons too. Who knows? I was always open about my atheism at work, mostly because the Christians I worked with were so open about their beliefs.
Maybe it's because I never cared that they were theists, and if I'm going to judge, I'll base it on their character, not on their need for religious mythology, which I see as sometimes being beneficial to some people.
I take it you don't mean lay down arms literally, but that type of statement can be misinterpreted to mean that you're ready to have a literal war against theists. The bat shit crazy Christians will use such phrases against us, even when that's not what we mean. That's not meant to criticize you, but to explain how the extremists sometimes use our innocent words against us.
I doubt it was meant to be insulting. Perhaps SIB simply meant that there have been some very famous outspoken atheists who seemed to have a following. You know, like a celebrity. That certainly seemed to be the case in the era of the New Atheists. That doesn't mean that we all were followers of these people.
Btw, I've been a member of at least 7 or 8 atheist social groups. The two that were very organized, like the Humanists of Georgia and the Atlanta Freethought Society did have leaders, elected by the members to take care of certain leadership responsibilities. That's another way to take the comment. That's one of the difficult things about a discussion board. It's easy to misconstrue what someone means when they post. It's happened to me. I just try to ignore it and move on.
I took it to mean that SIB was referring to atheists who believe that religion should be eliminated at any cost, including violence. We used to have a few members here who said things like that. Hopefully, such people are few and far between.
I'm a strong supporter of religious freedom, although I refer to religion as religious mythology because that's what it is. But, if you've read enough about the history of religion or some of the works of the late Joseph Campbell, you might understand why mythology has a strong attraction to humans, regardless if more of us don't feel the need any longer. If SIB wants, SIB can correct me if I'm wrong about that post.
I don't know what SIB meant by that, but it's not important to me. It could be that SIB meant there are more people who believe in some type of higher power than who don't. What do you think it meant?
This thread was meant to be a discussion as to why/whether more atheists are realizing that religion does have some benefits, at least religions that are liberal or moderate, who support everyone else's right to believe what they want, no matter how much we might disagree that their beliefs have any basis in reality.
I have been a strong atheist for almost 50 years, yet I have seen in recent years, that religion often provides supportive communities, opportunities to do charity work or volunteer work, that atheist groups rarely offer. That is what David Silverman, who's editorial I linked to in my OP, realized after attending a service in a Black church. You don't have to agree. I felt the same way as Silverman and my feelings about it increased after attending a Black church service for a dear friend of mine. I could see the joy and love that the people found in their church community and I wondered how others felt, hoping we'd not be at each other's throats when we disagree. I'm one of those nuts who believes that old saying, "You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar". At least when it comes to having a conversation with people who might not agree with you.
Anyway....I hope this helped. You are under no obligation to respond to this post.
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Elixir
Made in America
So, when do they start dropping dead?
(Asking for a friend)
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Some atheists, IMO, can be as deranged as theists can be.
Back to a past discussion, atheist simply means a rejection of gods. Atheist says nothing about what one does believe, like UFOS,Bigfoot, ETs built the pyramids. The paranormal.
Back to a past discussion, atheist simply means a rejection of gods. Atheist says nothing about what one does believe, like UFOS,Bigfoot, ETs built the pyramids. The paranormal.
TomC
Bless Your Heart!
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Could you be more clear?
Name names? At least give a description of the atheists as deranged as Pence, Cruz, Trump, or the current ayatollah? I'll agree that P Z Meyers is annoying, but is that the kind of atheist you're talking about?
I can give you a list of deranged theists. Across the board, around the globe, and through the centuries. Have you a similar list of atheists?
Tom
Elixir
Made in America
Then everyone is an atheist, at least 999.9%.
Pretty much everyone rejects the existence of 9,999 out of 10,000+ gods, if not all of them.
abaddon
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This argument doesn't make much sense to me, for these reasons:
1. anyone who rejects 9999 of 10000 gods believes in one god and so they're a theist and not an atheist. I guess it can make a little sense to talk of a theist as "atheistic towards other gods" but does that turn the person into an atheist?
2. when atheists say "theists are atheists about all the gods they don't believe in" they're ignoring that many theists DO believe those other gods but view them as mistaken or incomplete depictions of the "real God", or they dismiss them as demons fooling the other religionists into thinking they're gods.
3. When an atheist says to a theist "you're an atheist too, like me, except I believe in one less god than you!" it implies the theists are skeptics too and have just one more hurdle of skeptical thinking to jump over towards "success". It's much more likely they're simply loyal to a "revelation" about an invisible reality that they imagine they've experienced or is contained in a scripture. So they're not being "atheistic", they're being as theistic as theism gets when they insist on one true God.
And, in any case, steve_bank's phrase "atheist simply means a rejection of gods" has an implicit "all" in front of "gods" that you're ignoring.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
If I only believe in one god am I a weak theist? Do I have to believe in all the gods I've ever heard of to be a strong theist?
Maybe if I only believe in one god and not all the other gods I've ever hard of then I'm really just a weak atheist. If none are real to me then I have become a strong atheist.
Glad we've figured that one out.
Maybe if I only believe in one god and not all the other gods I've ever hard of then I'm really just a weak atheist. If none are real to me then I have become a strong atheist.
Glad we've figured that one out.