Avengers - End Game (Spoiler City)

[Jimmy Higgins]

The thread title said Spoilers... so umm... yeah, spoilers!

There is just so much to like about this film. First off, we start off pretty quickly with the oh yeah... fuck that up ending... but then stuck in the reality of what occurred in Infinity War. Once they start looking into the solution to solve the problem, I think the writers did a great job of avoiding what people were whining about after Infinity War (everyone is going to be fine).

One of my big questions was about the Asgardians, who were thoroughly wiped away...ish. Turns out not so wiped away, though it was clear how Thanos and crew only decimated most of the population, as somehow people survived. And as much as I like Valkyrie, Miek, and especially Korg... where in the heck were they in Infinity War? Not expecting a huge plot arc with them, but at least some sign that Thanos didn't kill them all when he blew up the ship. Regardless, the writers confine the ability to fix things. So we are left with the consequences of everything having happened and not everyone returns, as one would suspect. And the balance... and cause of said loss or transition of characters is definitely good as well. We keep to the initial loss of Vision, as well as the new losses of Ironman as well Black Widow (though, there is a comic book window open for Black Widow based on a line by Banner post green snap). This seemed to make the most sense as these actors are ready to move on. Then we have the loss of Captain America, which again I thought was almost certain, the only question was how (and transition who to his role), and in his case, he gets to live again. My one critique on the end with him was I thought the wedding ring handshake should have been left at that... it was obvious what it meant. Seemed a little heavy handed to then go back and show what the viewer should have picked up. And we have, presumably, Gamora... but a number of years ago Gamora, not recently dead Gamora. So a character gets to stick around, but from the original packaging. So hopefully the people that were worried about everything going back to normal were satisfied. So three complete deaths (excluding Loki... presumably he's back in the thick of things), one character transition, and one character retirement... literally.

And speaking of Rogers, The Hammer... that was probably one of the cooler scenes. I read a long time ago about Whedon noting that in his script, he didn't say Rogers couldn't pick up the hammer... they only showed that he didn't. But lets talk about the long con! That goes back to Ultron... and the payoff was pretty sweet, and once the hammer started jiggling, I knew it was headed to the man with America's ass.

Speaking of America's ass, the Marvel brand of humor is so good (usually). You watch a DC Comic film and the humor just sucks, but the writers just get it with the Marvel material. Who manage to handle Thor's character brilliantly on many levels, both dramatic and comedic, as he is living with guilt of having failed to stop Thanos. The Hulk going down the stairs was funny, and well inserted, because you don't realize they weren't actually milking the premise.

Captain Marvel... seems to be too powerful of a Super Hero to actually have as a Super Hero. The plot dictates that she pretty much can't be involved until the end. When the incel-furiating line up of female characters lines up to "help" Captain Marvel, I'm pondering... yes, I get the point, but Captain Marvel could get through all that with just the help of Baby Groot. When the guns changed direction, it seemed quite obvious, some massive ass kicking was about to be had, making Thor look like Ant-Man. There could be the timing of her return as a problem, but I'd imagine that Dr. Strange could easily pop a window open to her and say "Hey... time to kick some ass." And then she'd be on her way... oddly enough, deciding not to use the portal Dr. Strange had opened... it just isn't dramatic enough.

Did I mention I like how they did The Hulk?

Man, three hour film, it felt like it lasted a bit, but for a three hour movie, I wasn't suffering from a lull anywhere in the script. You hear that Academy?! Three hours and it doesn't suffer from lulls!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Also, where do I copyright the plotline for Deadpool 3, where Deadpool seeks out the Infinity Gauntet so he can jerk off with it?

 

[marc]

I cheered when Cap got the Hammer. It looked a little weird for him to be holding it initially, but he put it to good use.

Captain Marvel is way overpowered, considering she took down the spaceship in 2 seconds, and Thanos had to use a stone to get her away from him. Pre-infinity stones he could take on Thor and the Thing at the same time and win. And Carol was not as powerful as Thor before becoming Binary. Maybe they can introduce the X-Men and have Rogue take a bit of that power to even it out.

What I wonder, if you trade a soul for the soul stone, do you get it back when returning the stone? Probably not, but it would be very interesting to see Cap meet the soul stone's 'guardian'.

Oh, and I liked that in bringing Black Panther to the fight, he brought the rest of Wakanda's forces as well.

 

[Toni]

I didn't really totally get what happened or didn't happen with Gamora.

I was OK with Captain America transition. Funny to see what happened with Thor and I'm sure has caused a lot of howling in disappointment among female fans. Sad/but fitting re: Stark.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say I didn't really care much for it. There were nice touches but overall, it was just too.....discombobulated?? Not as entertaining as I had hoped.

 

[marc]

I didn't really totally get what happened or didn't happen with Gamora.

Well, she was killed in the last movie.

In this one, Gamora from a time before she met the Guardians was brought forward, and convinced by Nebula to switch sides, but she still doesn't really know the Guardians at all. So she is likely currently stuck on Earth, with Nebula the only person she knows.

 

[PyramidHead]

Hot take: the whole mission was unnecessary and counterproductive because it didn't actually make things better for the universe that was affected by the snap, it just created a parallel universe that wasn't affected by it. The original universe still exists and is still bad. The existence of a better one that they will never know about doesn't help them.

 

[prideandfall]

Hot take: the whole mission was unnecessary and counterproductive because it didn't actually make things better for the universe that was affected by the snap, it just created a parallel universe that wasn't affected by it. The original universe still exists and is still bad. The existence of a better one that they will never know about doesn't help them.

the original universe has back all the snapped people - so, by the logic of the movie, that qualifies as "better"

 

[prideandfall]

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say I didn't really care much for it.

i overall have to agree with the sentiment, though i'm guessing it's for very different reasons.

my problems are largely structural and screenplay related: it had too many glaring logical holes, too many stupid contrivances for the sake of the plot or an action pose in a shot, too much of the film was bogged down by needing to be fan service or story arc closure that it didn't get nearly enough of a chance to be its own movie... which is interesting because that's what happened to avengers 2, so it seems we're getting a pattern here that every other avengers movie is good.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think one of the bigger issues was the stone that needs to go to Vormir... which is in space... a good distance from Earth.

And while I like how Captain America was able to go back with his girl... would he actually do that?

Also, five years is a long time, people would have moved on, trying to cope with a bitter reality... then all of a sudden your wife or husband is back... to find you boffing someone else?

Husband to girlfriend (in the act): You hear something?
Wife (stomps through the door): What the fuck are you doing?
Husband: Wait... what... you're back?
Wife: What do you mean 'am I back'? I've been gone for an hour, and the entire neighborhood has gone to hell... and you are doing what with ​who?!
Husband: You disappeared 5 years ago! I had to move on.
Wife: Don't give me that shit. It is 'until death do you part' not 'until Thanos makes you part'. She isn't even as pretty as me. Wait... what did you do with all the photos of me?

 

[prideandfall]

I think one of the bigger issues was the stone that needs to go to Vormir... which is in space... a good distance from Earth.

that one isn't an issue because they had the milano (the guardians of the galaxy ship) as well as the ship that nebula had brought (she used it to get to titan in infinity war, it's the ship she and tony were on at the start) - there was actually a scene after the time jump where they show the two teams using the ship's jump drives to get to morag and vormir.

And while I like how Captain America was able to go back with his girl... would he actually do that?

that was my huge issue with that too - that it conflicts with his character, i can't ever conceive of steve rogers choosing his own happiness over his duty.
even if he'd stayed in the past, there's so much he would be aware of but have to ignore: JFK assassination, vietnam, watergate, south america, 9/11, bucky being alive, HYDRA running SHIELD... and he'd have to get peggy to ignore all of it as well.

 

[Toni]

I didn't really totally get what happened or didn't happen with Gamora.

Well, she was killed in the last movie.

In this one, Gamora from a time before she met the Guardians was brought forward, and convinced by Nebula to switch sides, but she still doesn't really know the Guardians at all. So she is likely currently stuck on Earth, with Nebula the only person she knows.

Oh, I got that. And I realized that she was killed-killed, not erased. Still part of me had expected to see her at the end if for no other reason than all her buds were there and where else would she be? Made me worry if she were killed and I hadn't noticed it.

And yeah, I know it's not 'logical' but I did see the movie so it seemed like a small thing to include her....

 

[Toni]

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say I didn't really care much for it.

i overall have to agree with the sentiment, though i'm guessing it's for very different reasons.

my problems are largely structural and screenplay related: it had too many glaring logical holes, too many stupid contrivances for the sake of the plot or an action pose in a shot, too much of the film was bogged down by needing to be fan service or story arc closure that it didn't get nearly enough of a chance to be its own movie... which is interesting because that's what happened to avengers 2, so it seems we're getting a pattern here that every other avengers movie is good.

Nah, it was mostly for the same reasons.

I totally got that this is the last Avengers or the 'last' Avengers and I totally got the need to pay homage to every single character.

I've never been a comics person so I kind of go into these with only vague assumptions about who these characters are and what they can do, etc. so I'm not overly bothered if someone suddenly lost or gains a power or a memory or an association. But yes, it seemed like a lot of stuff was thrown at the screen.

 

[prideandfall]

And yeah, I know it's not 'logical' but I did see the movie so it seemed like a small thing to include her....

well one other thing to remember about these movies is that generally speaking the big important things aren't throw-aways or just something they forget about.
if gamora wasn't there at the end of endgame that's because finding her is going to be the plot guardians of the galaxy 3, so my bet is that GOTG3: the search for gamora will be about finding her, bringing her back into the fold, and re-establishing her romance with peter quill.

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I've never been a comics person so I kind of go into these with only vague assumptions about who these characters are and what they can do, etc. so I'm not overly bothered if someone suddenly lost or gains a power or a memory or an association. But yes, it seemed like a lot of stuff was thrown at the screen.

oh, that's not the sort of things that bothered me, i'm talking far more at a structural level of the screenplay itself in terms of the writing.
but that's a whole dissertation i could do that i won't bore this thread with.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And yeah, I know it's not 'logical' but I did see the movie so it seemed like a small thing to include her....

well one other thing to remember about these movies is that generally speaking the big important things aren't throw-aways or just something they forget about.
if gamora wasn't there at the end of endgame that's because finding her is going to be the plot guardians of the galaxy 3, so my bet is that GOTG3: the search for gamora will be about finding her, bringing her back into the fold, and re-establishing her romance with peter quill.

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I've never been a comics person so I kind of go into these with only vague assumptions about who these characters are and what they can do, etc. so I'm not overly bothered if someone suddenly lost or gains a power or a memory or an association. But yes, it seemed like a lot of stuff was thrown at the screen.

oh, that's not the sort of things that bothered me, i'm talking far more at a structural level of the screenplay itself in terms of the writing.
but that's a whole dissertation i could do that i won't bore this thread with.

Don't worry about boring the thread. This is a stand alone thread outside reviews, so it is all good.

I do know, the more one thinks about it, there are more and more holes, but I felt it didn't have cargo ship sized holes and was generally sensible for a comic book movie. It wasn't like Armageddon or 2012 (not comic book, but action) where the entire plot arc is nonsensical.

 

[prideandfall]

I do know, the more one thinks about it, there are more and more holes, but I felt it didn't have cargo ship sized holes and was generally sensible for a comic book movie.

yeah it wasn't DC movie level of stupid but it was definitely one of the weakest marvel movies in terms of stretching incredulity and breaking suspension of disbelief by having some things be *in-universe* stupid.

 

[KeepTalking]

When the incel-furiating line up of female characters lines up to "help" Captain Marvel, I'm pondering... yes, I get the point, but Captain Marvel could get through all that with just the help of Baby Groot.

There was actually a bit more to the point of that scene, though not much. It was paying homage to A Force, a fairly recent all female super hero team. Although the team was usually led be She-Hulk, and most of the regular members have not yet been featured in the MCU, Captain Marvel did lead A Force for a bit, and a few of the other characters in the End Game scene are at least A Force adjacent.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I just think Cap's going to look silly trying to put the Tesseract back, because it no longer looks like the Tesseract that they stole. That big green casing around it was crushed. So unless the stone just somehow grows that back like a cocoon, there's a bit of farce as he puts the stone right where it belongs, but they still scream about it being stolen, and what the hell is this pebble someone left there?

But, hey, if the first stone he returns is to the Ancient One, she can open portals to everywhere else, maybe she can build the casing?

 

[prideandfall]

I just think Cap's going to look silly trying to put the Tesseract back, because it no longer looks like the Tesseract that they stole. That big green casing around it was crushed. So unless the stone just somehow grows that back like a cocoon, there's a bit of farce as he puts the stone right where it belongs, but they still scream about it being stolen, and what the hell is this pebble someone left there?

oh hey that's a very good point that i hadn't even thought about, they would have had to remove it from the cube to attach it to the iron man gauntlet... i wonder how they even pulled that off.

But, hey, if the first stone he returns is to the Ancient One, she can open portals to everywhere else, maybe she can build the casing?

or, hey, maybe this movie isn't very well written and the more you think about it the more you realize it's ridiculous full of holes.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I just think Cap's going to look silly trying to put the Tesseract back, because it no longer looks like the Tesseract that they stole. That big green casing around it was crushed. So unless the stone just somehow grows that back like a cocoon, there's a bit of farce as he puts the stone right where it belongs, but they still scream about it being stolen, and what the hell is this pebble someone left there?

Oh that is simple... just paint a crude blue cube and put the stone in there.

But, hey, if the first stone he returns is to the Ancient One, she can open portals to everywhere else, maybe she can build the casing?

She can open portals and create anything, as long as the color is goldish-yellow, so that won't work.

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I just think Cap's going to look silly trying to put the Tesseract back, because it no longer looks like the Tesseract that they stole. That big green casing around it was crushed. So unless the stone just somehow grows that back like a cocoon, there's a bit of farce as he puts the stone right where it belongs, but they still scream about it being stolen, and what the hell is this pebble someone left there?

oh hey that's a very good point that i hadn't even thought about, they would have had to remove it from the cube to attach it to the iron man gauntlet... i wonder how they even pulled that off.

They pulled it off like any good team of super heroes would... using the strongest power in the world... oversight.

But, hey, if the first stone he returns is to the Ancient One, she can open portals to everywhere else, maybe she can build the casing?

or, hey, maybe this movie isn't very well written and the more you think about it the more you realize it's ridiculous full of holes.

It is hard to have time travel involved and for the holes not to get out of control.

 

[prideandfall]

It is hard to have time travel involved and for the holes not to get out of control.

meh that's not what bothered me honestly - it's time travel, it's purely fantasy in the first place and the only "rules" are ones we've invented. endgame has a lot of weird stupid plot holes due to time travel if you apply supposition about how time travel works from other sources, but i'd generally put that under the umbrella of suspension of disbelief as long as it isn't painfully stupid.

but endgame has a shitload of massive issues both in terms of the plot and in-movie logic as well as production decisions and screenplay problems totally outside of the time travel stuff, and those are the issues that really got to me.