Babel

[DLH]

Someone, I don't know who, but thank you, brought up the tower of Babel in another thread. I missed it the first time and then found it later and started to make a response, but didn't have time, got distracted later and then couldn't find it again. If you made that post and would like to link to it here that would be appreciated.

Though briefly mentioned in the Bible, it is, in my opinion, a very interesting subject.

First of all, if secular measurements in time are messed up, which they are then there could be a case made for religious thinking prior to the scattering at Babel to have widely circulated with the migration, and thus spirituality and creation myths, for example, to have scattered with them. Second of all, consider the possibility that the reason Jehovah scattered the people wasn't that he felt threatened that they would ascend to the heavens as high as him, but that they were staying in this one area when he wanted them to fulfill his purpose for them to multiply and subdue the earth.

As to the first point, take Nimrod. Nimrod was the founder of the first empire after the flood. His early kingdom consisted of Babel, Accad, Caineh, and Erech. All in Shinar.

Josephus: "[Nimrod] little by little transformed the state of affairs into a tyranny, holding that the only way to detach men from the fear of God was by making them continuously dependent upon his own power. He threatened to have his revenge on God if He wished to inundate the earth again; for he would build a tower higher than the water could reach and avenge the destruction of their forefathers. The people were eager to follow this advice of [Nimrod], deeming it slavery to submit to God; so they set out to build the tower . . . and it rose with a speed beyond all expectation." - Jewish Antiquities, I, 114, 115 (iv, 2, 3).

After Babel, Nimrod's territory extended to Assyria. He built "Nineveh and Rehoboth-Ir and Calah and Resen between Nineveh and Calah: this is the great city." (Genesis 10:11, 12 also see Micah 5:6)

Nimrod is thought to be Tammuz or Damuzi, the Sumerian King who invented the filthy idol, the cross, which was later adopted by Christianity in about the middle of the fourth century C.E. after Constantine. Ezekiel 8:15-18

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ok, so the defense is, don't read the story's text and all will be well.

 

[DLH]

Ok, so the defense is, don't read the story's text and all will be well.

[Sigh] What abandoned religiosity has thou in need to propagate to have arrived at that conclusion, master Higgins?

 

[Will Wiley]

Second of all, consider the possibility that the reason Jehovah scattered the people wasn't that he felt threatened that they would ascend to the heavens as high as him,

How can we be sure?

 

[skepticalbip]

First of all, if secular measurements in time are messed up, which they are then there could be a case made for religious thinking prior to the scattering at Babel to have widely circulated with the migration, and thus spirituality and creation myths, for example, to have scattered with them. Second of all, consider the possibility that the reason Jehovah scattered the people wasn't that he felt threatened that they would ascend to the heavens as high as him, but that they were staying in this one area when he wanted them to fulfill his purpose for them to multiply and subdue the earth.

Gotta love how Christians try to rewrite the Bible to make god sound less human. Your interpretation isn't even close to what the book says.

The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

Donno what other gods or demons he was talking to but it is obvious from what he said that he scattered humanity because humanity was coming to have too much ability to accomplish whatever they wanted if they worked together.

 

[Kharakov]

The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

Donno what other gods or demons he was talking to but it is obvious from what he said that he scattered humanity because humanity was coming to have too much ability to accomplish whatever they wanted if they worked together.

Yeah. Sounds more like God is making fun of children thinking they have the ability to reach the heavens. Maybe in a Louis C.K. voice.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Gotta love how Christians try to rewrite the Bible to make god sound less human. Your interpretation isn't even close to what the book says.

The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

Donno what other gods or demons he was talking to but it is obvious from what he said that he scattered humanity because humanity was coming to have too much ability to accomplish whatever they wanted if they worked together.

As I said, DLH's story is if you just don't read the story, there isn't any problem.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Aw, go easy on him. He's trying to uphold a first century blood sacrifice religion with a deity that saw nothing wrong with ordering genocide, infanticide, and rape of female prisoners. There's got to be some leeway on the requirement to stay logical.

 

[tantric]

the tower of babel myth bugs me on a number of levels, but not because of its place in history - i always assumed it was a myth that might have some origin and just didn't worry about that part. what bugs me is the message, both about the place of humanity and our languages...so i wrote my own versionl

tower of babble on (play Outkast Babylon)

when the realpeople first came into the new world, they all lived in one place. the wisest among them knew that this was no good, that they would exhaust the land if they all stayed together. but what to do? every night the realpeople built campfires out on the plains, and it was like the stars had fallen to earth, go great were their numbers. the elders came together to discuss this and one ventured, if only we spoke different languages then perhaps we would scatter, and when we came back together, we could exchange foods. another responded, well, we do know brother mockingbird, who knows all of the languages of the birds, perhaps he could help us. so they conferred more and set about making the prayer offering to bring brother mockingbird, who lit on a prickly pear the next morning, saying, yo man, ssup? the elders explained. brother mockingbird told them, yeah, i got dis for ya. how about you, chief, you wanna twist your tongue, too? the elders respectfully declined, keeping the original language. that night, mockingbird flitted from one burnt out camp fire to the next. at each he would take something from his buckskin pouch, holding as if it were full of bees trying to escape, and bury that thing in the ashes, then take something else from the firepit and put that instead into the strange pouch. thus he went from fire to fire until it was all done, then he returned to the chief and gave him the bustling pouch and said, yo, now this shit is on y’all. take that bag out and bury it, burn it and bury it again. thus the elders did, while brother mockingbird sat on his cactus and kibbutzed. then as the sun rose, and the realpeople with it, the found that for each camp fire, those closest to it had a new language that they did not share with any of the other realpeople. they were dismayed, of course, this was a terrible shock – families unable to talk to each other. then brother mockingbird spoke to them all, in every language and none, and said, i have gifted you as your elders requested, but i have also give you my gift, unknown to them. now the realpeople, like me, can learn any language with time and care. SNAP, bitches, ’cause i roll like dat! and he flew away.

so now, rainbow children, when you see a mockingbird, you must tell him, “gracias, arigatoo, xie-xie and shikamoo” to thank him for the gifts of language he gave us.

from my blog - confessions of a weirdness magnet

https://weirdnessconfessions.wordpress.com/

 

[Sarpedon]

I don't know how to interpret all the stupidity in this post.

First of all, how long did it take after the flood to build up enough people to have an empire?
Secondly, how, AFTER Babel, is Nimrod still a king, when the express purpose of confounding the languages was to prevent people from organizing? How is he still in charge of anything? How can he build a city? How many people lived in this city? How did they understand one another? Does God just suck at everything?
Thirdly, do you actually think that someone INVENTED the cross? two intersecting lines is a mighty common thing. A mighty common thing.

 

[braces_for_impact]

God thinking that the people would reach him is stupid, obviously. Here's the real reason he scattered them, as it is stated right there.

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

They were ONE people, with a purpose, and God knew that after a time, if they kept cooperating like this they could do anything they damn well set their minds to. Being the petty and jealous tyrant he was, he couldn't have that.

That is the disturbing story of Babel. Not this "reach the heavens" nonsense.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

God thinking that the people would reach him is stupid, obviously. Here's the real reason he scattered them, as it is stated right there.

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

They were ONE people, with a purpose, and God knew that after a time, if they kept cooperating like this they could do anything they damn well set their minds to. Being the petty and jealous tyrant he was, he couldn't have that.

That is the disturbing story of Babel. Not this "reach the heavens" nonsense.

That is a repeated thing. It is the reason he boots man from the Garden, they'll become like us. It is part of the "Don't fuck with me" God persona that was popular back in the day.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It is the reason he boots man from the Garden, they'll become like us. It is part of the "Don't fuck with me" God persona that was popular back in the day.

I can see Michael Caine, taking that attitude from Kingsman about training people from the lesser orders as agents.

God referring to Adam once he knows good from evil. "Well, he's not really 'our sort' is he? He's not 'one of us,' as it were." Wouldn't want someone made of mud to 'get airs' about being immortal or being all-powerful or wanting equal treatment just because they can build a stairway up to Heaven...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is the reason he boots man from the Garden, they'll become like us. It is part of the "Don't fuck with me" God persona that was popular back in the day.

I can see Michael Caine, taking that attitude from Kingsman about training people from the lesser orders as agents.

God referring to Adam once he knows good from evil.

The fruit gave knowledge of good and evil (all things) not morality.

"Well, he's not really 'our sort' is he? He's not 'one of us,' as it were." Wouldn't want someone made of mud to 'get airs' about being immortal or being all-powerful or wanting equal treatment just because they can build a stairway up to Heaven...

God is a bitch. He doesn't want man to be an equal. Wouldn't be a god to fear if he wanted company. I mean in addition to whomever this "us" we keep hearing about.

 

[bilby]

The story of Babel is quite entertaining; Although IMO, Babell-A Pig in the City is better.

 

[ideologyhunter]

So God's Plan for Us (which we've corporately rejected
> No knowledge from the tree of good and evil
> No united efforts by all of humankind
> Become like children.
What have I missed? Stone the infidels?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So God's Plan for Us (which we've corporately rejected
> No knowledge from the tree of good and evil
> No united efforts by all of humankind
> Become like children.
What have I missed? Stone the infidels?

Definitely worth considering. Being that there are two creation stories, this is an interesting question.

The first story of creation indicates man has no rules to follow at all, just to be fruitful and multiply. The only ones being given any orders are the sun and moon who are to hold dominion over the Earth. Second story of creation involves man very much having a specific purpose, to tend to the Garden. Granted, it was a nice Garden, stuff grew and all. Not as much in the thistle and thorns department. There was no commandment to multiple, in fact, there was only one guy... no animals. So oddly enough, in the First Story of Creation, huge planet, be like bunnies. Second Story of Creation, small Garden on unknown sized area, keep the weeds from getting out of control.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Second Story of Creation, small Garden on unknown sized area, keep the weeds from getting out of control.

Wasn't the garden located between specific rivers? So there's some upper limit to the size.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Second Story of Creation, small Garden on unknown sized area, keep the weeds from getting out of control.

Wasn't the garden located between specific rivers? So there's some upper limit to the size.

The location of the Garden is roughly given, but there are no real descriptions about outside the Garden. If anything, the story seems to act like the entire world is around (referring to known monumental points), but back in the day, the action was in the Garden. Of course, that begs the question, why the whole world if stuff is just happening in the Garden. Seems like God was prepared for "Plan B".

 

[funinspace]

Wasn't the garden located between specific rivers? So there's some upper limit to the size.

The location of the Garden is roughly given, but there are no real descriptions about outside the Garden. If anything, the story seems to act like the entire world is around (referring to known monumental points), but back in the day, the action was in the Garden. Of course, that begs the question, why the whole world if stuff is just happening in the Garden. Seems like God was prepared for "Plan B".

The Big Prick tried to use an abortion pill?

Anywho, the Garden of Eden should be easy enough to find, just look for the cherubim guards with flaming swords...