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Back to the basics: what determines the reliability of a media source or an individual story, and is it possible to give an objective reliability scor

Axulus

Veteran Member
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Right leaning skeptic
There has been an extreme polarization in people's perception on whether a media outlet or individual story from the media can be believed or whether it is biased. This is especially so when a story relates in some fashion to a partisan issue.

First, why should bias automatically be a negative thing? Shouldn't a free media provide a variety of viewpoints and perspectives? Why is bias automatically criticized as a negative? I've noticed more than ever that people automatically criticize a source as biased if it tries to provide evidence or tell a story that may challenge partisan beliefs. A story about a Muslim refugee family living in the US is criticized by the alt-right as being "biased propaganda". As if a story telling the facts about one family's situation is somehow invalid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u79ecRwZH8

Or how about a story regarding the failure of TPP, take a look at the comments, people think it is all lies, as if there is nothing redeemable whatsoever about TPP http://www.wsj.com/articles/pacific...in-japan-to-china-white-house-says-1478209355

More than ever, people's trust in media is at an all time low:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx

More than ever, this mistrust in "mainstream media" has lead people to make claims that sketchy media sources, such as globalresearch.ca, Daily Mail, Fox News, Limbaugh, RT, Breitbart, Infowars, Salon, etc., while sometimes getting it wrong, are no worse than the more "mainstream" sources such as The Guardian, NYT, CNN, Washington Post, NPR, etc. The evidence? Pointing to cherry picked stories that are either explicitly labeled as "opinion", and then demonstrating that these opinion pieces are biased.

What we need is a better way to determine the reliability of both an individual media outlet as a whole, a particular story, and also being able to better distinguish when someone is giving an opinion (which is neither right nor wrong), and whether that opinion is somehow so extreme or disconnected from reality as to be considered a blemish on the organization for publishing it.

I consider this issue to be the most important issue facing us over the next decade. Without people agreeing on basic facts, there is absolutely no hope to agree on what to do/what policies to implement in light of the facts. In other words, no compromise. Without compromise, people will prefer extremist representatives, and will prefer authoritarian people to force their distorted reality on the rest of us. I have to say that right now, I'm not very optimistic about the future. I see the EU being torn apart, more extreme right wing populist demagogues getting into power over time (and maybe the occassional left wing equivalent), more terrorist attacks which further polarizes Western countries and drives yet more people to the right, etc.
 
More than ever, this mistrust in "mainstream media" has lead people to make claims that sketchy media sources, such as globalresearch.ca, Daily Mail, Fox News, Limbaugh, RT, Breitbart, Infowars, Salon, etc., while sometimes getting it wrong, are no worse than the more "mainstream" sources such as The Guardian, NYT, CNN, Washington Post, NPR, etc. The evidence? Pointing to cherry picked stories that are either explicitly labeled as "opinion", and then demonstrating that these opinion pieces are biased.

Guardian??? Faced with a choice between the truth and America-bashing they'll probably choose the America-bashing option.

CNN? Reasonably good but they definitely suffer from the problem of choosing the side of controversy over the side of truth.


The problem is that even reputable news sources are in the business of getting eyeballs. If something is a big story they need to find *something* to say about it, they really want to find something *new* to say about it. While the reputable places at least try for honesty there's still an awful lot of pressure to come up with new material and some people will go too far.
 
I agree that this is one of the most important issues of our society and something that threatens our democratic (to the extent that they are democratic) processes. But what can we do about it? Merkel announced that Germany is planning on instituting a "fake news" ban punishable by fines but the obvious problem with that is we can't exactly trust our government to decide what is and isn't fake news.

I hear Canada's news is pretty reliable and trustworthy. Whats their secret? Tighter regulations against news companies going after eyeballs?
 
More than ever, this mistrust in "mainstream media" has lead people to make claims that sketchy media sources, such as globalresearch.ca, Daily Mail, Fox News, Limbaugh, RT, Breitbart, Infowars, Salon, etc., while sometimes getting it wrong, are no worse than the more "mainstream" sources such as The Guardian, NYT, CNN, Washington Post, NPR, etc. The evidence? Pointing to cherry picked stories that are either explicitly labeled as "opinion", and then demonstrating that these opinion pieces are biased.

Guardian??? Faced with a choice between the truth and America-bashing they'll probably choose the America-bashing option.

CNN? Reasonably good but they definitely suffer from the problem of choosing the side of controversy over the side of truth.


The problem is that even reputable news sources are in the business of getting eyeballs. If something is a big story they need to find *something* to say about it, they really want to find something *new* to say about it. While the reputable places at least try for honesty there's still an awful lot of pressure to come up with new material and some people will go too far.

There is a huge difference between propagating false stories/facts/conspiracy theories and being biased but still getting the facts and general story right.

CNN and Guardian are not guilty of the former even if they are guilty of the latter at times.
 
First of all, just speaking as a member, I don't need to see these long-ass thread titles.

Second, a lot of what is listed as "news" is really "opinion". Limbaugh is a standard bigoted douchecannon, as one example. And as a liberal, I wouldn't point to Salon for news, unless I literally cannot find anything from a legitimate news site on the specific matter at hand. I think that this is actually more worrisome than "fake news", but both are real issues.
 
A quote from the movie Born Yesterday (1950 Judy Holiday, William Holden, Broderick Crawford) comes to mind.

" If I saw a fire and called the engines - Who am I double-crossing ? The fire ? "

Swap out "double-crossing" and replace it with "biased against." How would you answer the question?
 
Guardian??? Faced with a choice between the truth and America-bashing they'll probably choose the America-bashing option.

CNN? Reasonably good but they definitely suffer from the problem of choosing the side of controversy over the side of truth.


The problem is that even reputable news sources are in the business of getting eyeballs. If something is a big story they need to find *something* to say about it, they really want to find something *new* to say about it. While the reputable places at least try for honesty there's still an awful lot of pressure to come up with new material and some people will go too far.

There is a huge difference between propagating false stories/facts/conspiracy theories and being biased but still getting the facts and general story right.

CNN and Guardian are not guilty of the former even if they are guilty of the latter at times.

CNN, yes.

Guardian, no. I've seen too many cases where they publish things that are obviously wrong.
 
When I was a kid watching the local news, I seem to remember a banner across the bottom of the screen that read "commentary" during opinion pieces.
I suppose news organizations could form a board of ethics. They could be responsible for awarding a medallion to news organizations for adhering to prescribed standards. News organizations would be responsible for displaying this medallion often, similar to radio stations periodically announcing their call letters.
If "commentary" were required to be displayed/announced and the news organization bore the responsibility both financially and in having to have the entire procession of people responsible appear before the board, this would stop them from convoluting news with commentary.
 
I agree that this is one of the most important issues of our society and something that threatens our democratic (to the extent that they are democratic) processes. But what can we do about it? Merkel announced that Germany is planning on instituting a "fake news" ban punishable by fines but the obvious problem with that is we can't exactly trust our government to decide what is and isn't fake news.

I hear Canada's news is pretty reliable and trustworthy. Whats their secret? Tighter regulations against news companies going after eyeballs?

Yes, obviously there's nothing that smacks of freedom and democracy as much as the government telling people what they can and can't say.

I would think rational adults would have noticed by now that there is no way you can regulate editorial discretion, so there is no way you can regulate media bias.

For example, apparently the media can summon forth a panic about "fake news" from the aether:

https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=fake news
 
I atke it by your post that you think fake news should be given free access to ears and eyes. Isn't that a bit different from not suppressing fake news, rather giving permission to include fake news as if it were actual news? Or isn't that a position that matters?
 
I atke it by your post that you think fake news should be given free access to ears and eyes. Isn't that a bit different from not suppressing fake news, rather giving permission to include fake news as if it were actual news? Or isn't that a position that matters?

I'm in the "congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech" camp. Others can abridge as they see fit.
 
We don't have to abridge anything. But if you want to call yourself a News organization tasked with reporting the factual information to the populace, I don't see why you can't be required to adhere to professional standards for accuracy.

If you would rather be first to report with a catchy headline and a political slant, you are a tabloid whose chief concern is revenue, not information dissemination. You do not get to be called "the news". And if you want to/have to do both kinds of reporting, that's also fine. But there should be a clear demarcation between what is 'News/Investigative Reporting' and what is a 'proffered opinion'.

That's not abridging freedom of speech, it's just professionalism. Most news organizations have an ombudsman to sort through these things and be critical of the way the organization handles stories, so we're not reinventing the wheel here either.

aa
 
Part of the problem is that the pop-culture notion of "objectivity" and "unbiased" which guide most of how media is viewed even by itself wrongly thinks that being objective means NOT presenting a case that favors any conclusion or "side" of an issue. That is almost the opposite of what news media should be doing. They should be approaching issues as much like scientist or historian would, which means evaluating competing possible claims in light of all the relevant facts they can gather. Since the fact usually favor some conclusions over others, the media should often be presenting analyses of the facts that favor some conclusions over others. Almost every scientific article, no matter how "objective" argues for one position over alternatives. The key to objectivity is in using all relevant evidence and applying rational analysis to how it favors various conclusions.

Sometimes the mere facts of a specific event are really all that is important, so no analysis is really needed. Of course, biased agendas can still come into play there in the form of what gets selected as "newsworthy". The news should try to stick to stories where factual events are the focus and they are able to actually verify the facts. IOW, they should not be (as most of them are) simply parroting unsupported assertions by partisans. Given other partisans the chance to use the media to give unsupported assertions in response is not the same as gathering and reporting independent evidence that either verifies or refutes what partisans are claiming. The media should spend more time investigating the veracity of the things said by the partisans they quote rather than just quoting and uncritically reporting everything they say.
 
Here are a few hints that your news source is terribly biased:

- Do they repeatedly demonize their political opponents?
- Do they actually have political opponents?
- Are there fewer than 25 minutes of content per hour?
- Are their ads for self-defense or buying Iraqi currency or gold as a wise investment strategy?

How to tell your news is "fake news":

- Do you feel that checking a second source is likely going to be a waste of time because what you just read couldn't possibly be true?

How to tell your news is tabloid news:

- Did you not learn a single thing important from the story you just heard about?
- Is your news from a Cable station?

How to tell if your news isn't biased:

- You are listening to NPR or watching PBS (or CBC/BBC).
 
More than ever, this mistrust in "mainstream media" has lead people to make claims that sketchy media sources, such as globalresearch.ca, Daily Mail, Fox News, Limbaugh, RT, Breitbart, Infowars, Salon, etc., while sometimes getting it wrong, are no worse than the more "mainstream" sources such as The Guardian, NYT, CNN, Washington Post, NPR, etc.
Funny how this statement is poorly written, dare I say "Fake News".

More than ever "news" sources globalresearch.ca, Daily Mail, Fox News, Limbaugh, RT, Breitbart, Infowars, Salon, etc are continuing to convince their listeners that sources such as The Guardian, NYT, CNN, Washington Post, NPR, etc. are biased and label it "mainstream media" in an attempt to mock it.


What we need is a better way to determine the reliability of both an individual media outlet as a whole, a particular story, and also being able to better distinguish when someone is giving an opinion (which is neither right nor wrong), and whether that opinion is somehow so extreme or disconnected from reality as to be considered a blemish on the organization for publishing it.
Actually, people need to accept what is accurate.
 
You get what you pay for, so media quality reflects the importance of quality to their funding model.

If advertising revenue is the primary source of funding, then you get 'news' that gets people to watch it. Truth is not popular; explosions, excitement and confirmation of the audience's prejudices are popular. So that's what you get. Where there are sizeable populations with different prejudices, you will get a set of news media targeting each of these audience pools, and advertisers will target their ads to the various audiences these media can attract. (This is the CNN, MSNBC and Fox News model).

If the government is the primary source of funding, then you get 'news' that supports the government's positions (the RT model). This can be tempered by enforcing editorial independence, and having rules that limit governmental ability to interfere with the media it funds (the BBC model).

If viewer payments are the primary source of funding, then you get 'news' that supports the prejudices of the kind of person who is prepared to pay for news (the PBS model).

None of these systems guarantee that truth will be highly regarded; but the BBC and PBS models are the least awful.

When we make the mistake of thinking that truth will automatically be more important than money, we get what we deserve.
 
We don't have to abridge anything. But if you want to call yourself a News organization tasked with reporting the factual information to the populace, I don't see why you can't be required to adhere to professional standards for accuracy.

If you would rather be first to report with a catchy headline and a political slant, you are a tabloid whose chief concern is revenue, not information dissemination. You do not get to be called "the news". And if you want to/have to do both kinds of reporting, that's also fine. But there should be a clear demarcation between what is 'News/Investigative Reporting' and what is a 'proffered opinion'.

That's not abridging freedom of speech, it's just professionalism. Most news organizations have an ombudsman to sort through these things and be critical of the way the organization handles stories, so we're not reinventing the wheel here either.

aa

I support your right to create a blog where you rail about Dan Rather, Brian Williams, and the New York times/Jason Blair to your heart's content. I'm sure the fake news organizations that employed or employ these people will cower with the appropriate level of fear at being branded fake news by alcoholic actuary.

And you won't offend the old "congress shall make no law" rule either, so best wishes o Great Captain of Freedom and Democracy.
 
How to tell if your news isn't biased:

- You are listening to NPR or watching PBS (or CBC/BBC).
The other day NPR had George Lakoff on, and he informed us that all government regulations are protections; the NPR guy didn't call him on it.
 
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