Ban Tik Tok = National Security -- or China-Bashing?

[Lumpenproletariat]

OK it's not a "BAN" but just forcing them to divest. We needn't get hung up on the technical jargon jibber-jabber.

Why should any "Social Media" company ever be forced to "divest" regardless who the owner might be? What's the worst possible owner of a "Social Media" company -- the Neo-Nazis? the Bolsheviks? the Satanists? the John Birch Society? the Zionists? the International Bankers? the Antichrist? the Watchtower Society? the Society for Cruelty to Animals (if it exists)? the National Association for the Advancement of Trolls?

Why should we care that some bad guys own a "Social Media" company? or that this might enable them to influence someone? If you don't like their "Social Media" company, then start up your own "Social Media" company to offer consumers a better alternative to that one.




The xenophobe here says "Anything that influences Americans and is owned by them damn foreigners is a THREAT" to our security and elections. (slight editing to that quote) -- This seems to be the only reason to ban Tik Tok (force it to divest). It is a threat to America for anything foreign to influence us. So all influences on Americans which come from foreigners need to be suppressed.

I can't find a website which gives a coherent reason why Tik Tok should be forced to divest but not owners of other "Social Media" companies. But I admit I didn't try very hard. So does anyone know what the real threat is from Tik Tok but not from other such companies which also might have bad people owning them?

What if other countries than China also set up "Social Media" companies? in the U.S. or wherever? to influence us? What is the threat? Maybe there already are several which keep a low profile about their political puppeteer-establishments which influence us behind the scenes. Europeans run video shows in the U.S. which seem to propagandize. The BBC can be heard in the U.S. and might be spreading pro-British propaganda disguised as objective educational material. Might Deutsche Welle also be threat?

Does the Catholic Church run some broadcasts or podcasts in the U.S.? There are claims that the TV show "Star Trek" was a Catholic Church propaganda show. Does this matter? that some such "Platform" might be under the control of some Entity thought to be a threat? Almost any TV show or anything popular could be used by its owners (or secret owners) to promote their ideology and influence the public, the voters, the elections. We don't really know who secretly controls it behind the scenes.

What about the soda pop companies? Did the Right-Winger Art Linkletter really own RC Cola? or did the Mormons own Coke? Or what about the convenience stores -- did Japan own 7-11? Maybe these propagandists or foreign competitors injected some "Kool-Aid" into their products to manipulate us. We can't be sure what those in power might be doing to influence us in some way.

SO WHAT if they do influence us? or some of us? and we change our vote because of it? Aren't there a million factors out there which can influence your political thinking so you change your vote? Should everything which might influence you to change be banned as dangerous?

Suppose we're even at war with China or someone, and they put out propaganda. Why couldn't there also be alternative propaganda platforms for others to counter the enemy propaganda? Why couldn't all others be equally allowed access to American (or British or French or Canadian) viewers and voters? why not allow Taiwan and Japan and Thailand and Singapore etc. to also operate "Social Media" companies or platforms to promote their propaganda if they want to? What's wrong with allowing anyone to promote their propaganda? Maybe some parts of their propaganda are true.

If the point is to suppress only the very worst propagandists, couldn't you argue that U.S. political parties or broadcast pundits are the most dangerous propagandists and the worst cases of someone influencing the public in a bad direction? and spreading the most lies? the most disinformation?

What is the reason to think that China is the worst case? doing the most damage? and the one most needing to be suppressed? Is there reason to believe that China has uniquely found a way to manipulate us like no other entity is able to? Only China knows the technique to psychologically influence people, making it a form of "unfair competition"? How has China come to be the most expert at this?

No one is giving any answers to these questions. It seems that China-bashing is the only common denominator to any of this.

Meanwhile it seems there are millions of businesses making profit using Tik Tok in order to sell something. All these must be suppressed because Tik Tok might influence someone? i.e. might influence people who are already being influenced and manipulated by hundreds or thousands of other propagandists?

 

[Patooka]

I just love how Trump went from "ban Tik Tok", to "Don't you fucking dare ban Tik Tok". I'm sure it has nothing to do with meeting up with mega donor Jeff Yass.

Trump's TikTok ban reversal comes after meeting megadonor who has stake in TikTok

Trump reversed his position on potentially banning TikTok ahead of an expected House vote this week on legislation that could lead to it being blocked in the U.S

abcnews.go.com

Donald Trump. The best President money can buy.

 

[rousseau]

The Underground Economy by Henry Farrell gives a pretty good idea what's going on with this.

 

[TV and credit cards]

We do not wait for proof. By then it is too late. China has no rights here. Analytical programs can be run by China to look for people ripe to commit acts of espionage. China is running the largest espionage program in history.

Malware can be delivered by China via ByteDance. China does not have to concern itself with violating US law.

An IPO of TikTok in US markets would bring oversight of the company through the Committee on Foreign Investments to include its software and updates, data flow, where data is stored and who has access to it.

 

[laughing dog]

The OP presents a false dichotomy : banning TikTok can bashing China and increasing national security.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We do not wait for proof. By then it is too late. China has no rights here. Analytical programs can be run by China to look for people ripe to commit acts of espionage. China is running the largest espionage program in history.

Wasn't that the US a few years ago?

An IPO of TikTok in US markets would bring oversight of the company through the Committee on Foreign Investments to include its software and updates, data flow, where data is stored and who has access to it.

Security is very important. So why in the bleeping heck has there been virtually no Congressional response to every single online leak of critical data at corporations up to now? Why all of a sudden is it important if China has this info relative to the "dark web"? The US has been suffering a pandemic of Ransomware... and there has been zero Congressional action. Hospitals have been hacked. But TikTok... that has to have action?

Any action against TikTok should include a much broader look at Internet security, including our terribly outdated email and IP calling platforms which are rife for allowing manipulation.

 

[RVonse]

We do not wait for proof. By then it is too late. China has no rights here. Analytical programs can be run by China to look for people ripe to commit acts of espionage. China is running the largest espionage program in history.

Wasn't that the US a few years ago?

An IPO of TikTok in US markets would bring oversight of the company through the Committee on Foreign Investments to include its software and updates, data flow, where data is stored and who has access to it.

Security is very important. So why in the bleeping heck has there been virtually no Congressional response to every single online leak of critical data at corporations up to now? Why all of a sudden is it important if China has this info relative to the "dark web"? The US has been suffering a pandemic of Ransomware... and there has been zero Congressional action. Hospitals have been hacked. But TikTok... that has to have action?

Any action against TikTok should include a much broader look at Internet security, including our terribly outdated email and IP calling platforms which are rife for allowing manipulation.

Except that there are very big differences between an individual scammer versus the Communist Chinese Party. One of these involves national security versus the other which only involves identity theft and scamming. I'm not calling for bad IP calling platforms but at some point with limited resources you do have to pick your battles.

 

[RVonse]

Suppose we're even at war with China or someone, and they put out propaganda. Why couldn't there also be alternative propaganda platforms for others to counter the enemy propaganda? Why couldn't all others be equally allowed access to American (or British or French or Canadian) viewers and voters? why not allow Taiwan and Japan and Thailand and Singapore etc. to also operate "Social Media" companies or platforms to promote their propaganda if they want to? What's wrong with allowing anyone to promote their propaganda? Maybe some parts of their propaganda are true.

Because in times of war, the free market is thrown out the window and for good reason. During the US civil war there were journalists who were thrown in jail for publishing the wrong opinion. And even now during peaceful times Chinese people can be thrown into their jail if they express the wrong speech that the CCP does not approve.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We do not wait for proof. By then it is too late. China has no rights here. Analytical programs can be run by China to look for people ripe to commit acts of espionage. China is running the largest espionage program in history.

Wasn't that the US a few years ago?

An IPO of TikTok in US markets would bring oversight of the company through the Committee on Foreign Investments to include its software and updates, data flow, where data is stored and who has access to it.

Security is very important. So why in the bleeping heck has there been virtually no Congressional response to every single online leak of critical data at corporations up to now? Why all of a sudden is it important if China has this info relative to the "dark web"? The US has been suffering a pandemic of Ransomware... and there has been zero Congressional action. Hospitals have been hacked. But TikTok... that has to have action?

Any action against TikTok should include a much broader look at Internet security, including our terribly outdated email and IP calling platforms which are rife for allowing manipulation.

Except that there are very big differences between an individual scammer versus the Communist Chinese Party.

Ransomware is not an "individual scammer". These are mobs, terrorists, some bad hombres looking for new ways to make cash.

One of these involves national security versus the other which only involves identity theft and scamming.

How does this impact national security any more? Stealing a person's access to credit ratings allows anyone with access to that info to look across the country and find susceptible people in need of money, who also have access to areas of interest or vulnerabilities. This stuff is already out there.

I'm not calling for bad IP calling platforms but at some point with limited resources you do have to pick your battles.

The US doesn't have "limited resources."

 

[Harry Bosch]

OK it's not a "BAN" but just forcing them to divest. We needn't get hung up on the technical jargon jibber-jabber.

Why should any "Social Media" company ever be forced to "divest" regardless who the owner might be? What's the worst possible owner of a "Social Media" company -- the Neo-Nazis? the Bolsheviks? the Satanists? the John Birch Society? the Zionists? the International Bankers? the Antichrist? the Watchtower Society? the Society for Cruelty to Animals (if it exists)? the National Association for the Advancement of Trolls?

Why should we care that some bad guys own a "Social Media" company? or that this might enable them to influence someone? If you don't like their "Social Media" company, then start up your own "Social Media" company to offer consumers a better alternative to that one.




The xenophobe here says "Anything that influences Americans and is owned by them damn foreigners is a THREAT" to our security and elections. (slight editing to that quote) -- This seems to be the only reason to ban Tik Tok (force it to divest). It is a threat to America for anything foreign to influence us. So all influences on Americans which come from foreigners need to be suppressed.

I can't find a website which gives a coherent reason why Tik Tok should be forced to divest but not owners of other "Social Media" companies. But I admit I didn't try very hard. So does anyone know what the real threat is from Tik Tok but not from other such companies which also might have bad people owning them?

What if other countries than China also set up "Social Media" companies? in the U.S. or wherever? to influence us? What is the threat? Maybe there already are several which keep a low profile about their political puppeteer-establishments which influence us behind the scenes. Europeans run video shows in the U.S. which seem to propagandize. The BBC can be heard in the U.S. and might be spreading pro-British propaganda disguised as objective educational material. Might Deutsche Welle also be threat?

Does the Catholic Church run some broadcasts or podcasts in the U.S.? There are claims that the TV show "Star Trek" was a Catholic Church propaganda show. Does this matter? that some such "Platform" might be under the control of some Entity thought to be a threat? Almost any TV show or anything popular could be used by its owners (or secret owners) to promote their ideology and influence the public, the voters, the elections. We don't really know who secretly controls it behind the scenes.

What about the soda pop companies? Did the Right-Winger Art Linkletter really own RC Cola? or did the Mormons own Coke? Or what about the convenience stores -- did Japan own 7-11? Maybe these propagandists or foreign competitors injected some "Kool-Aid" into their products to manipulate us. We can't be sure what those in power might be doing to influence us in some way.

SO WHAT if they do influence us? or some of us? and we change our vote because of it? Aren't there a million factors out there which can influence your political thinking so you change your vote? Should everything which might influence you to change be banned as dangerous?

Suppose we're even at war with China or someone, and they put out propaganda. Why couldn't there also be alternative propaganda platforms for others to counter the enemy propaganda? Why couldn't all others be equally allowed access to American (or British or French or Canadian) viewers and voters? why not allow Taiwan and Japan and Thailand and Singapore etc. to also operate "Social Media" companies or platforms to promote their propaganda if they want to? What's wrong with allowing anyone to promote their propaganda? Maybe some parts of their propaganda are true.

If the point is to suppress only the very worst propagandists, couldn't you argue that U.S. political parties or broadcast pundits are the most dangerous propagandists and the worst cases of someone influencing the public in a bad direction? and spreading the most lies? the most disinformation?

What is the reason to think that China is the worst case? doing the most damage? and the one most needing to be suppressed? Is there reason to believe that China has uniquely found a way to manipulate us like no other entity is able to? Only China knows the technique to psychologically influence people, making it a form of "unfair competition"? How has China come to be the most expert at this?

No one is giving any answers to these questions. It seems that China-bashing is the only common denominator to any of this.

Meanwhile it seems there are millions of businesses making profit using Tik Tok in order to sell something. All these must be suppressed because Tik Tok might influence someone? i.e. might influence people who are already being influenced and manipulated by hundreds or thousands of other propagandists?

So when China bans western social media (or all media?); does that constitute "western bashing"?

 

[TomC]

How does this impact national security any more?

I don't know nearly enough to have a personal opinion on the issues.
Someone who does explained it like this.
A) TikTok doesn't work like similar web stuff, such as YouTube. It's got a bunch of security issues.
B) TikTok is run by an authoritarian government that is aggressively pursuing the goal of becoming a global superpower, largely at the expense of U.S. power. That also makes TikTok different from a similar platform from Japan, India, Germany or wherever.
That's what someone who knows what they're talking about told me, actually more than one.

Then there's the fact that Trump flipped from anti-tiktok to pro-tiktok. I can't help but assume that it's because it works for him at the expense of his biggest enemy. Democracy.
Tom

 

[rousseau]

How does this impact national security any more?

I don't know nearly enough to have a personal opinion on the issues.
Someone who does explained it like this.
A) TikTok doesn't work like similar web stuff, such as YouTube. It's got a bunch of security issues.
B) TikTok is run by an authoritarian government that is aggressively pursuing the goal of becoming a global superpower, largely at the expense of U.S. power. That also makes TikTok different from a similar platform from Japan, India, Germany or wherever.
That's what someone who knows what they're talking about told me, actually more than one.

Then there's the fact that Trump flipped from anti-tiktok to pro-tiktok. I can't help but assume that it's because it works for him at the expense of his biggest enemy. Democracy.
Tom

In the past few decades the U.S. stumbled into control over the brunt of the world's internet infrastructure, which gave it a lot of leverage in the world economy. But it overplayed it's hand and other states are pushing back, trying to undermine this dominance. China is attempting to do what the U.S. is already doing, and the U.S. is trying to stop it.

Two bodies acting in their own interests, basically.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How does this impact national security any more?

I don't know nearly enough to have a personal opinion on the issues.
Someone who does explained it like this.
A) TikTok doesn't work like similar web stuff, such as YouTube. It's got a bunch of security issues.
B) TikTok is run by an authoritarian government that is aggressively pursuing the goal of becoming a global superpower, largely at the expense of U.S. power. That also makes TikTok different from a similar platform from Japan, India, Germany or wherever.
That's what someone who knows what they're talking about told me, actually more than one.

Then there's the fact that Trump flipped from anti-tiktok to pro-tiktok. I can't help but assume that it's because it works for him at the expense of his biggest enemy. Democracy.
Tom

I'm seeing levee with Mumbai population density of groundhogs living in it, scour at the riverside toe and a riverside slope with no grass cover, massive sand boils on the land side, and sections of the levee visually drooping. And yet, people are just complaining that the bridge gets closed during a flood event as they use it as a flood wall.

And while almost no one will get any of that, the point is, our Internet infrastructure is weak. Our data has already been stolen by many cartels. But TikTok... we need to act on that!

We need to fix it all! TikTok could be a threat, and if it is, it should be addressed. But all the other threats need to be addressed as well.

 

[rousseau]

How does this impact national security any more?

I don't know nearly enough to have a personal opinion on the issues.
Someone who does explained it like this.
A) TikTok doesn't work like similar web stuff, such as YouTube. It's got a bunch of security issues.
B) TikTok is run by an authoritarian government that is aggressively pursuing the goal of becoming a global superpower, largely at the expense of U.S. power. That also makes TikTok different from a similar platform from Japan, India, Germany or wherever.
That's what someone who knows what they're talking about told me, actually more than one.

Then there's the fact that Trump flipped from anti-tiktok to pro-tiktok. I can't help but assume that it's because it works for him at the expense of his biggest enemy. Democracy.
Tom

I'm seeing levee with Mumbai population density of groundhogs living in it, scour at the riverside toe and a riverside slope with no grass cover, massive sand boils on the land side, and sections of the levee visually drooping. And yet, people are just complaining that the bridge gets closed during a flood event as they use it as a flood wall.

And while almost no one will get any of that, the point is, our Internet infrastructure is weak. Our data has already been stolen by many cartels. But TikTok... we need to act on that!

We need to fix it all! TikTok could be a threat, and if it is, it should be addressed. But all the other threats need to be addressed as well.

Ultimately, I don't think it's just about data security, but which technology belongs to us, and which belongs to them. If their technologies pervade Europe and North America that gives them leverage that they otherwise wouldn't have. I'm not a security expert and can't really go into detail, but I think you'll get the gist of it from Farrell's book.

 

[Emily Lake]

Why should we care that some bad guys own a "Social Media" company? or that this might enable them to influence someone?

A whole lot of people seemed to care very deeply about the influence of foreign actors in the 2016 election. Personally, I think that we should take steps to reduce the ability of foreign states to influence the outcome of our elections - and we're in an election year that promises to be highly contentious both for the presidential seat as well as for a whole lot of house and senate seats.

Social engineering has always been an incredibly powerful tool for interfering in foreign policy.

 

[Playball40]

I don't understand how they suddenly care about 'foreign influence' in elections when they've never given a rats ass before (when it was Russia). As far as having our personal information, I'm quite sure they already have it. Admittedly, I haven't researched it at length, but it feels like it would benefit Musk to get rid of TikTok.

 

[Emily Lake]

I don't understand how they suddenly care about 'foreign influence' in elections when they've never given a rats ass before (when it was Russia). As far as having our personal information, I'm quite sure they already have it. Admittedly, I haven't researched it at length, but it feels like it would benefit Musk to get rid of TikTok.

Clarification: "it would benefit Musk to get rid of TikTok" Does this mean "Twitter would see more use if TikTok were eliminated" or "Musk should divest himself of TikTok"?

It's got to be the former, as the latter doesn't make sense to me... but sometimes I just read wrong too.

ETA: If it does mean the former, I don't think Twitter would be the beneficiary. It's more likely to be Instagram or YouTube that sweeps up former TikTok users. Probably Instagram, based on format style, and the fact that a whole lot of TikTok users post simultaneous content on Instagram. Instagram is owned by Meta, so it would be Zuckerberg; YouTube is owned by Google. I don't think Musk reaps any direct reward from TikTok being shut down.

 

[robnisch]

Tik-Tok (Oz) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Toni]

Legitimate concerns re: TikTok or any other social media platform would be if it was an easy way to infiltrate various institutions (governmental and private) that would allow it to access data or manipulate data for the user's (or China but really, anybody) nefarious or just extremely self interested uses. It's also a security issue if it allows easy manipulation of users re: radicalization along any political axis, manipulates vulnerable users into sharing sexually explicit or just embarrassing images and info, is used to groom individuals for (insert reason), to steal protected information (personal, corporate, government, etc). I'm sure I'm missing some potential mis-uses and misappropriations of information and of ways to manipulate people.

To the extent that this is more problematic with TikTok vs (insert platform), I cannot guess as I am not a user and I can only guess at how problematic it is for China (or Russia or NK or.....) to be the one controlling the strings.

 

[ZiprHead]

Steven Mnuchin Says He Is Putting Together a Group to Buy TikTok

I hope they have some deep pockets.