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Ben Carson's West Point Story Fabricated Says Ben Carson.

You forgot this part, in real life who the hell knows what they did on a specific day in 1969? "Memoirs" are not diaries, they are memories and impressions of long ago events...in this case nearly a half century ago. They are not usually "time stamped" and "attendance listed" to the satisfaction of some knave, nearly 50 years hence, who wants to go nuts over the general impressions and recollections of a brief meeting.

Here are some of my life events, of less than precise recollection: shook hands with Agnew, not sure at which function or hotel. Spoke to Charles Kuralt, at some building in Miami, or Miami beach in 1972. Saw Reagan in LA, at some LA hotel on some date prior to 1976 convention. Saw WFBuckley, sometime within a several year period (off and on) at JC. Sometime in the mid 1970s I was offered a probationary status to a grad program at Chico (I didn't have a BA but had good GRE scores). I can't recall the guys name, but I think he was head of the Poly Sci department (or Public Policy). I don't recall the date or exact year.

It does not mean anyone is intentionally lying - folks conflate events and mix up sequences all the time. Their general impressions may be correct, but their specifics might be off. If so, who the heck cares how this nothing-burger went down, other than to smear obessed "gotcha" journalists?

No. There is an infinitely different meaning between:

"I had an opportunity to attend west point but didn't pursue it"

and

"I was offered a full scholarship to west point, but turned it down"

17 year old Ben Carson might blur the difference, but 64 year old retired brain surgeon Ben Carson certainly knows the difference between being made an  Offer and Acceptance and how service academies and the military operate and how they don't. Or he has no business running for the position of Commander in Chief.

aa

Let's say I have a kid that plays football and the assistant coach comes and talks to him and says "we really want you to come play for us at State, let us hook you up with a scholarship". Later the kid decides he wants to be a doctor and doesn't apply to state.

Is the kid a liar if he says "I was offered a football scholarship at State"?
 
This man is a fruitcake. One of those pathological liars.

The questions of course are: Who the hell asked this nut to run for president and who the hell is supporting him?
 
No. There is an infinitely different meaning between:

"I had an opportunity to attend west point but didn't pursue it"

and

"I was offered a full scholarship to west point, but turned it down"

17 year old Ben Carson might blur the difference, but 64 year old retired brain surgeon Ben Carson certainly knows the difference between being made an  Offer and Acceptance and how service academies and the military operate and how they don't. Or he has no business running for the position of Commander in Chief.

aa

Let's say I have a kid that plays football and the assistant coach comes and talks to him and says "we really want you to come play for us at State, let us hook you up with a scholarship". Later the kid decides he wants to be a doctor and doesn't apply to state.

Is the kid a liar if he says "I was offered a football scholarship at State"?


Yes. And your example perfectly outlines the difference. The words "Lets hook you up with a scholarship" constitute an offer which can be accepted, declined, or countered. No one did that to Carson, not imaginary Westmoreland from the tennis courts of DC, not anyone remotely affiliated with USMA or the military in general. I find it extremely difficult to believe that this wunderkind of ROTC had difficulty figuring out the admissions process to the most famous and highly regarded institution of higher military education in the world.

aa
 
I find it extremely difficult to believe that this wunderkind of ROTC had difficulty figuring out the admissions process to the most famous and highly regarded institution of higher military education in the world.

aa

It does seem odd. I knew two people who went to West Point (my grandmother's neighbor's kid and a classmate in my high school) and it was not some casual "oh, I got this offer...I'll have to think about it." My impression was that West Point doesn't come looking for you...even if they are aware that you're exceptional. You have to actively show an interest in the school.
 
Was he introduced to Westmoreland?
Did the two have dinner together?
In the conversation was there any discussion of attending West Point?
Did Westmoreland allude or suggest any scholarship might be available if he applied?

Did they go see a movie after?
Did they lock lips?
Did he spend the night?
Did the general trick him about a scholarship?
 
This man is bragging about hanging out with assholes. Serves him right getting caught. General Waste More Land was no friend of the human race...neither is Carson.
 
Oo
Let's say I have a kid that plays football and the assistant coach comes and talks to him and says "we really want you to come play for us at State, let us hook you up with a scholarship". Later the kid decides he wants to be a doctor and doesn't apply to state.

Is the kid a liar if he says "I was offered a football scholarship at State"?


Yes. And your example perfectly outlines the difference. The words "Lets hook you up with a scholarship" constitute an offer which can be accepted, declined, or countered. No one did that to Carson, not imaginary Westmoreland from the tennis courts of DC, not anyone remotely affiliated with USMA or the military in general. I find it extremely difficult to believe that this wunderkind of ROTC had difficulty figuring out the admissions process to the most famous and highly regarded institution of higher military education in the world.

aa

Damn, the lengths you will go to convince yourself this was some great untruth are remarkable. You must have been inconsolable when it came out Obama had invented fake composite characters in his biography. There can't possibly be much doubt in anyone's mind that Carson could have gotten into West Point so its not like he claimed he was taking sniper fire in Bosnia for self aggrandizement.

But you've convinced me he won't be getting the pedantic leftist who can somehow also tolerate the 1000x worse plagiarism and lies of Joe Biden vote.
 
Oo
Yes. And your example perfectly outlines the difference. The words "Lets hook you up with a scholarship" constitute an offer which can be accepted, declined, or countered. No one did that to Carson, not imaginary Westmoreland from the tennis courts of DC, not anyone remotely affiliated with USMA or the military in general. I find it extremely difficult to believe that this wunderkind of ROTC had difficulty figuring out the admissions process to the most famous and highly regarded institution of higher military education in the world.

aa

Damn, the lengths you will go to convince yourself this was some great untruth are remarkable. You must have been inconsolable when it came out Obama had invented fake composite characters in his biography. There can't possibly be much doubt in anyone's mind that Carson could have gotten into West Point so its not like he claimed he was taking sniper fire in Bosnia for self aggrandizement.

But you've convinced me he won't be getting the pedantic leftist who can somehow also tolerate the 1000x worse plagiarism and lies of Joe Biden vote.

You mean the Joe Biden running for president in 2016?

What's surprising is the lengths you will go to to convince yourself that he's being truthful. He's done absolutely nothing that any other American or even any other world citizen has done in gaining admission to West Point (aside from those who actually apply). So by your own logic, absolutely every human on earth was "offered a full ride scholarship to West Point". They just all didn't apply. Yes, that's much more genuine.

Congrats Ben Carson, you are still unremarkable.

aa
 
So, wait, he had


"offers and enducements" from most of the top colleges in the country but could only afford to apply to Yale.

And never once said, I'd like to apply, but I lack the $10 fee can you help me out?
Never once thought to say, I can appreciate your offer of a scholarship worth tens of thousands, is it possible to waive the application fee of $10 to make it possible for me to consider you?


That's his story?
 
Damn, the lengths you will go to convince yourself this was some great untruth are remarkable. You must have been inconsolable when it came out Obama had invented fake composite characters in his biography. There can't possibly be much doubt in anyone's mind that Carson could have gotten into West Point so its not like he claimed he was taking sniper fire in Bosnia for self aggrandizement.

But you've convinced me he won't be getting the pedantic leftist who can somehow also tolerate the 1000x worse plagiarism and lies of Joe Biden vote.

The contortions one must go through to try to defend this pathological liar.

He is not only as religiously deluded as any Iranian fanatic but he tells stories that are completely false for years.

What hole did this guy crawl out of and who asked him to?
 
So, wait, he had


"offers and enducements" from most of the top colleges in the country but could only afford to apply to Yale.

And never once said, I'd like to apply, but I lack the $10 fee can you help me out?
Never once thought to say, I can appreciate your offer of a scholarship worth tens of thousands, is it possible to waive the application fee of $10 to make it possible for me to consider you?


That's his story?

Or even brandished a hammer to do some fundraising...
 
You forgot this part, in real life who the hell knows what they did on a specific day in 1969? "Memoirs" are not diaries, they are memories and impressions of long ago events...in this case nearly a half century ago. They are not usually "time stamped" and "attendance listed" to the satisfaction of some knave, nearly 50 years hence, who wants to go nuts over the general impressions and recollections of a brief meeting.

Here are some of my life events, of less than precise recollection: shook hands with Agnew, not sure at which function or hotel. Spoke to Charles Kuralt, at some building in Miami, or Miami beach in 1972. Saw Reagan in LA, at some LA hotel on some date prior to 1976 convention. Saw WFBuckley, sometime within a several year period (off and on) at JC. Sometime in the mid 1970s I was offered a probationary status to a grad program at Chico (I didn't have a BA but had good GRE scores). I can't recall the guys name, but I think he was head of the Poly Sci department (or Public Policy). I don't recall the date or exact year.

It does not mean anyone is intentionally lying - folks conflate events and mix up sequences all the time. Their general impressions may be correct, but their specifics might be off. If so, who the heck cares how this nothing-burger went down, other than to smear obsessed "gotcha" journalists?

He doesn't need a memory. He had a staff which kept these records. He wasn't at the event and Carson made a big deal about the fact that this specific person was at this specific event.

You must mean something different from what you just wrote, as no one with an IQ greater than their belt size thinks that in 1969 the Carson ROTC kid retained a staff to "keep these records" for his future biography. In 1992, when he wrote his memoirs, I doubt he had a biography writing staff either. His current political staff has no memory, they can only pass along his written recollections, updates, and research fact-check (when possible) Politico's own fabrications.

And his "making of a big deal" amounts to three or four sentences in his 1992 self-reflective memoir (written decades before he was a politician), and a couple of instances of an even briefer retelling. Unless his written biographies have only been two paragraphs, that is not "making a big deal" in a book - it's a nothing incidental about a youth's road not taken.

So far, Politicos anemic hit piece has already lost its credibility with its retracted headline, followed by its laughable assertion that he "concedes" that he didn't apply and didn't get accepted to WP WHEN he never said that he applied or was accepted. That alone should end this idiotic trope.

However, you are hair pulling over the when and where of his 'dinner meeting', so let's look at that. In his bio, Carson wrote:

"At the end of my twelfth grade I marched at the head of the Memorial Day parade."
"We had important visitors that day. Two soldiers who had won the Congressional Medal of Honor in Viet Nam were present."
"... General William Westmoreland (very prominent in the Vietnam war) attended with an impressive entourage."
"Afterward, Sgt. Hunt introduced me to General Westmoreland, and I had dinner with him and the Congressional Medal winners."
"Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point."
"I didn’t refuse the scholarship outright, but I let them know that a military career wasn’t where I saw myself going."

After you get sucked into the mud of that Politico article, and sort out its unsupported paraphrases and unsubtle editorializing, you will find nothing there. It does not dispute that he marched at the head of the parade, or that they had important visitors, or that Medal of Honor winners were present. Nor does it dispute that Sgt. Hunt introduced him to Westmoreland, or that he had dinner with him and CM winners. Nor does it even dispute that LATER, after this event he may have been informally offered entry and free college by West Pointers. And finally it does not dispute that he let them know it was not the military that he saw himself going.

Lamely, the article informs that (although uncertain) it is more likely that he was introduced to Westmoreland at another dinner event, to which he was probably invited, where Medal of Honor winners were also present.

Such a "SHOCKING" story. Carson's prior recollection of 1969 may have merged his two dinner events into a single dinner. GASP...what a scoundrel. Oh and "later" he may have been told that 'they' could get him into West Point, which would cover all expenses which, technically, is only EQUAL to a scholarship.

It's like if someone was saying that they were dodging sniper fire on a particular day and it turns out that there weren't any snipers in the area on that day. It's just a straight-up lie.

Nope. It's more like if Hillary said she was dodging sniper fire 50 years ago during a particular day and it turns out that she was dodging fire by enemy regulars on another day.

What a nothing story.
 
What a nothing story.

It is a very telling story.

This guy is pathological.

It is not only his religious fundamentalism.

The thing is a good liar when caught would be, "maybe I misremembered a thing or two, but look at this other shiny." You don't double down and accuse the people who pointed out the discrepancy. That's an amateur's trick.
 
He doesn't need a memory. He had a staff which kept these records. He wasn't at the event and Carson made a big deal about the fact that this specific person was at this specific event.

You must mean something different from what you just wrote, as no one with an IQ greater than their belt size thinks that in 1969 the Carson ROTC kid retained a staff to "keep these records" for his future biography.
No, but the US Army and others did keep records of the general.


Politico's own fabrications.
And what did Politico fabricate?

And his "making of a big deal" amounts to three or four sentences in his 1992 self-reflective memoir (written decades before he was a politician), and a couple of instances of an even briefer retelling. Unless his written biographies have only been two paragraphs, that is not "making a big deal" in a book - it's a nothing incidental about a youth's road not taken.

If it isn't a big deal, why did Carson keep brining it up. And why did he bring up the armed robbery he assisted with in that Popeye's organization?


"At the end of my twelfth grade I marched at the head of the Memorial Day parade."
"We had important visitors that day. Two soldiers who had won the Congressional Medal of Honor in Viet Nam were present."
"... General William Westmoreland (very prominent in the Vietnam war) attended with an impressive entourage."
"Afterward, Sgt. Hunt introduced me to General Westmoreland, and I had dinner with him and the Congressional Medal winners."
"Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point."

So here we have a specific date, time, place which we can check against the records showing Westmoreland in another city at that time proving that this meeting could not have happened.

Now that that is cleared up. Please tell us why there are no records of the armed robbery Ben Carson assisted at the Popeye's organization.
 
You don't double down and accuse the people who pointed out the discrepancy.


You do if you're Ben "No I'm Totally Serious About That Pyramid Thing...They're Grain Elevators" Carson.
 
Its been mentioned already but West Point doesn't recruit anyone. This lie that he was informally offered anything from them sounds like some half-assed stolen valor. The country wanted him for his genius but fate had something else planned.

His excuse for not going is more evidence he's making this shit up. If you're such an extraordinary prospect wanting to be a doctor wouldn't be a hindrance. The Uniformed Services University is the federal governments school of medicine as well as other health professions. Top students of the military academies have the option of going there for post graduate education before fulfilling their officer obligation. All that time in medical school and residency counts towards your time in service for promotions. He could have been a major before his fist military assignment.
 
What a nothing story.

It is a very telling story.

This guy is pathological.

It is not only his religious fundamentalism.
Are we talking about Carson or max?

And I hear that Carson is becoming known for his controversial comments. Isn't that just a polite way of saying he is becoming known for his stupidity?
 
You forgot this part, in real life who the hell knows what they did on a specific day in 1969? "Memoirs" are not diaries, they are memories and impressions of long ago events...in this case nearly a half century ago. They are not usually "time stamped" and "attendance listed" to the satisfaction of some knave, nearly 50 years hence, who wants to go nuts over the general impressions and recollections of a brief meeting.

Here are some of my life events, of less than precise recollection: shook hands with Agnew, not sure at which function or hotel. Spoke to Charles Kuralt, at some building in Miami, or Miami beach in 1972. Saw Reagan in LA, at some LA hotel on some date prior to 1976 convention. Saw WFBuckley, sometime within a several year period (off and on) at JC. Sometime in the mid 1970s I was offered a probationary status to a grad program at Chico (I didn't have a BA but had good GRE scores). I can't recall the guys name, but I think he was head of the Poly Sci department (or Public Policy). I don't recall the date or exact year.

It does not mean anyone is intentionally lying - folks conflate events and mix up sequences all the time. Their general impressions may be correct, but their specifics might be off. If so, who the heck cares how this nothing-burger went down, other than to smear obessed "gotcha" journalists?

No. There is an infinitely different meaning between:

"I had an opportunity to attend west point but didn't pursue it"

and

"I was offered a full scholarship to west point, but turned it down"

17 year old Ben Carson might blur the difference, but 64 year old retired brain surgeon Ben Carson certainly knows the difference between being made an  Offer and Acceptance and how service academies and the military operate and how they don't. Or he has no business running for the position of Commander in Chief.

aa


What's surprising is the lengths you (Dismal) will go to to convince yourself that he's being truthful. He's done absolutely nothing that any other American or even any other world citizen has done in gaining admission to West Point (aside from those who actually apply). So by your own logic, absolutely every human on earth was "offered a full ride scholarship to West Point". They just all didn't apply. Yes, that's much more genuine.

Congrats Ben Carson, you are still unremarkable.

aa

Actually in this context there is no difference between "I was offered a full scholarship to..." and "I was offered entry to..." west point, they are functionally identical. WP entry and fully paid college is a package deal. Moreover, as you pointed out, this kind of nuance does not matter to an impoverished 17 year old who is being asked to apply by admired authority figures who tells him he is a shoe-in based on his impressive ROTC accomplishments and grades.

That 50 years after his life decision to turn down an opportunity for military service in order to pursue medicine, that four sentences in a 1992 memoir (and a few very brief retellings) turns into a faux moral earthquake (and false accusations by Politico), is just another reminder of the election season's eruption of stupid nothings as bloviated posturing.

17 year old Ben Carson might blur the difference, but 64 year old retired brain surgeon Ben Carson certainly knows the difference between being made an  Offer and Acceptance and how service academies and the military operate and how they don't. Or he has no business running for the position of Commander in Chief.

Except that procedural "blurred difference" is not in dispute. He didn't say he got a formal institutional offer of scholarship or admission. He implied he "later' got an informal offer from an authority figure, based on his grades and ROTC merit.

The worst that can be said is that his little 1969 pride story was imprecise and more applicable to an offer for a state or private college. He didn't lie about the offer, at worst he used the phrase "full scholarship" to embellish a description of the offer to get him into free West Point, based on his exceptional merits.

In other words, its not worthy of more than a footnoted exception and/or clarification (if that).
 
.....

Actually in this context there is no difference between "I was offered a full scholarship to..." and "I was offered entry to..." west point, they are functionally identical. WP entry and fully paid college is a package deal. Moreover, as you pointed out, this kind of nuance does not matter to an impoverished 17 year old who is being asked to apply by admired authority figures who tells him he is a shoe-in based on his impressive ROTC accomplishments and grades.

....

The nugget of the nut so to speak is the false equivalence between a scholarship and a service academy preparation in exchange for six years active duty service. One is a gift, the other is a business transaction, a trade of gifts for value.

I got predoctoral and postdoctoral fellowships, but, I didn't have to then serve in any capacity for anything after training. A high school chum was recommended by our Senator for US Naval Academy training for six years service in the military. It can't be more clear Carson was lying, embellishing, boasting, putting on, to ignore the real differences between the two bargains.
 
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