Ben Carson's West Point Story Fabricated Says Ben Carson.

[Nexus]

Actually in this context there is no difference between "I was offered a full scholarship to..." and "I was offered entry to..." west point, they are functionally identical. WP entry and fully paid college is a package deal.

No single officer has authority to offer a "scholarship" to West Point. And no officer would be so careless to mislead anyone to think they were getting one. At most an officer might offer a letter of recommendation to assist in the long process of getting a West Point appointment.

That 50 years after his life decision to turn down an opportunity for military service in order to pursue medicine,

As I mentioned before West Point wouldn't stop him from pursuing medicine. He could have gone to Uniformed Services medical school right afterwards.

He didn't say he got a formal institutional offer of scholarship or admission. He implied he "later' got an informal offer from an authority figure, based on his grades and ROTC merit.

And that's how we know he's lying. There is no such thing as an informal offer to West Point. After you submit all the application requirements get letters of recommendations and congressional or presidential sponsorship then it goes to an admission committee for further scrutiny and selection.

He didn't lie about the offer, at worst he used the phrase "full scholarship" to embellish a description of the offer to get him into free West Point, based on his exceptional merits.

Of course he lied because it would never happen they way he claimed. I know this because I was so exceptional in high school all the military branches wanted me. The SEAL team 6 was begging me to join and I picked them because I didn't want to wear a silly french beret like the other special forces. I did so well in BUDS that the CIA recruited me immediately after hell week and I did missions for them no one else would or could do. They even expunged my military record in order to have plausible deniability.

 

[maxparrish]

You must mean something different from what you just wrote, as no one with an IQ greater than their belt size thinks that in 1969 the Carson ROTC kid retained a staff to "keep these records" for his future biography.

No, but the US Army and others did keep records of the general.

It depends on the poster's inconsistent use of the pronoun "he". He (Carson) did need his memory to recall what who said what, when, and where. He did not have a staff. On the other hand, Westmoreland's memory is irrelevant because he's dead.

Politico's own fabrications.

And what did Politico fabricate?

I've already explained this, one or two posts prior. Read em.

And his "making of a big deal" amounts to three or four sentences in his 1992 self-reflective memoir (written decades before he was a politician), and a couple of instances of an even briefer retelling. Unless his written biographies have only been two paragraphs, that is not "making a big deal" in a book - it's a nothing incidental about a youth's road not taken.

If it isn't a big deal, why did Carson keep brining it up. And why did he bring up the armed robbery he assisted with in that Popeye's organization?

You mean why has he barely mentioned his teen choice between the military and medical school in just four lines of his biography, and only a few times in the 23 years since? Most folks would not characterize that as "keep bringing it up". Heck, most guys bring up their ex-wives, crappy bosses, ungrateful kids, and dog about 3000x more than that.

"At the end of my twelfth grade I marched at the head of the Memorial Day parade."
"We had important visitors that day. Two soldiers who had won the Congressional Medal of Honor in Viet Nam were present."
"... General William Westmoreland (very prominent in the Vietnam war) attended with an impressive entourage."
"Afterward, Sgt. Hunt introduced me to General Westmoreland, and I had dinner with him and the Congressional Medal winners."
"Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point."

So here we have a specific date, time, place which we can check against the records showing Westmoreland in another city at that time proving that this meeting could not have happened.

So here we have your comment, which we can check against what has already been discussed, showing you've paid zero attention.

We have already confirmed that it is likely (but not certain) Westmoreland did not attend the dinner event described by Carson BUT did attend a similar event attended by Carson three months earlier that year. Carson's memory mixed the two dinner events, the introduction must have occurred at the earlier dinner.

Now that that is cleared up. Please tell us why there are no records of the armed robbery Ben Carson assisted at the Popeye's organization.

No idea - and not particularly interested in finding out. One anti-Carson trumped up and really dumb "liar controversy" is enough to tell you that its likely to be another red herring.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

No, but the US Army and others did keep records of the general.

It depends on the poster's inconsistent use of the pronoun "he". He (Carson) did need his memory to recall what who said what, when, and where. He did not have a staff. On the other hand, Westmoreland's memory is irrelevant because he's dead.

Wow. Simply wow. Wetermoreland may be dead by records of his exact location on that date, at that time still exist. These show that there is NO physical way that the general could have been in Detroit during the time Carson describes.

If so, please explain the physics

Politico's own fabrications.

And what did Politico fabricate?

I've already explained this, one or two posts prior. Read em.

In other words, you don't know and are making shit up.

And his "making of a big deal" amounts to three or four sentences in his 1992 self-reflective memoir (written decades before he was a politician), and a couple of instances of an even briefer retelling. Unless his written biographies have only been two paragraphs, that is not "making a big deal" in a book - it's a nothing incidental about a youth's road not taken.

If it isn't a big deal, why did Carson keep brining it up. And why did he bring up the armed robbery he assisted with in that Popeye's organization?

You mean why has he barely mentioned his teen choice between the military and medical school in just four lines of his biography, and only a few times in the 23 years since? Most folks would not characterize that as "keep bringing it up". Heck, most guys bring up their ex-wives, crappy bosses, ungrateful kids, and dog about 3000x more than that.

Wow, you must have been around the guy 24-7 for many years. He has brought it up more than several times and he himself said it was very important to him, but whatever.

In a later book, “You Have a Brain,” he described how he had decided which college to attend: “I still had the scholarship offer from West Point as a result of my R.O.T.C. achievements,” he wrote.

More recently, in a Facebook post in August, he responded to a question on whether he had been offered a spot at West Point by writing that he had been “thrilled to get an offer from West Point.”

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/11/06/ben-carson-west-point/​

So here we have a specific date, time, place which we can check against the records showing Westmoreland in another city at that time proving that this meeting could not have happened.

So here we have your comment, which we can check against what has already been discussed, showing you've paid zero attention.

We have already confirmed that it is likely (but not certain) Westmoreland did not attend the dinner event described by Carson BUT did attend a similar event attended by Carson three months earlier that year. Carson's memory mixed the two dinner events, the introduction must have occurred at the earlier dinner.

Funny how you are certain he mixed up to specific events in such vivid detail, but are certain that he remembers that he was offered admittance and a full scholarship to West Point.

Now that that is cleared up. Please tell us why there are no records of the armed robbery Ben Carson assisted at the Popeye's organization.

No idea - and not particularly interested in finding out. One anti-Carson trumped up and really dumb "liar controversy" is enough to tell you that its likely to be another red herring.

Ben Carson was flat out lying about being held up at gun point. He made the incident up. If the story were true, it would mean that he is a horrible sociopath without care for his fellow human beings. He never once answered questions about what happened to the cashier, or other people in the restaurant and why the Baltimore police have no records of an armed robbery at a Popeye's organization. He made it up.

The man is a liar with a consistent history of lying.

 

[Rhea]

We have already confirmed that it is likely (but not certain) Westmoreland did not attend the dinner event described by Carson

Wait, you're not certain? Even though Westmoreland's schedule shows he was in a different state? What on earth would it take to make you certain?

BUT did attend a similar event attended by Carson three months earlier that year. Carson's memory mixed the two dinner events, the introduction must have occurred at the earlier dinner.

Yeah, I do that all the time. I meet a famous person one time who I respect tremendously and get what I hear to be an offer of a full scholarship, and I can't remember if it was at the one dinner or the other, I guess because I'm so used to meeting really famous people that I just get them all mixed up and it isn't a memorable event - the one having the famous person that makes my heart race and the other.... not having anyone famous at it.

 

[credoconsolans]

Ben Carson was flat out lying about being held up at gun point. He made the incident up. If the story were true, it would mean that he is a horrible sociopath without care for his fellow human beings. He never once answered questions about what happened to the cashier, or other people in the restaurant and why the Baltimore police have no records of an armed robbery at a Popeye's organization. He made it up.

The man is a liar with a consistent history of lying.

He gets caught in every lie and then gets defensive when the media tries to tell him that there is no evidence for any of his claims.

Even his ex-neighbors and school chums are shocked at his stories.

 

[maxparrish]

No single officer has authority to offer a "scholarship" to West Point. And no officer would be so careless to mislead anyone to think they were getting one. At most an officer might offer a letter of recommendation to assist in the long process of getting a West Point appointment.

As I mentioned before West Point wouldn't stop him from pursuing medicine. He could have gone to Uniformed Services medical school right afterwards.

Unless you are an fevered axe-grinder with an agenda, most people don't find it useful to argue against a few broad and imprecise sentences of what an author recalled 50 years ago. You end up making assumptions of what the author meant, by "later" "them" "offering" and end up arguing against yourself. If he meant something different from what you think he SHOULD have meant (in your view) then your swinging at ghosts.

For example, it is neither careless nor implausible that "later they" may have conveyed what amounts to (in Carson's view) an offer of an opportunity to attend West Point a get a free education. Whoever "they" are may have left an impression (intentionally or not) that given his exceptional ROTC service and grades, getting in is not a problem.

No, West Point would not have stopped him from pursuing medicine. On the other hand, any West Point education requires military service which, as he pointed out, was not where he wanted to go. If you want to know more on why he didn't wish to serve in the military just to go to medical school, you'll have to ask him. Or, as you seem inclined to do, you can just pick a fight with history and argue in ignorance.

He didn't say he got a formal institutional offer of scholarship or admission. He implied he "later' got an informal offer from an authority figure, based on his grades and ROTC merit.

And that's how we know he's lying. There is no such thing as an informal offer to West Point. After you submit all the application requirements get letters of recommendations and congressional or presidential sponsorship then it goes to an admission committee for further scrutiny and selection.

But there is such a thing as what he described, whether or not you wish to call it an informal offer. Informal offer is his personal view of the intent behind the encouragement that transpired, not some "official" informal offer process. Your blustering objection to a straw man is duly noted.

What likely transpired as an "informal offer" is easily deducible:

“Dr Carson was the top ROTC student in the City of Detroit. In that role he was invited to meet General Westmoreland. He believes it was at a banquet. He can’t remember with specificity their brief conversation but it centered around Dr. Carson’s performance as ROTC City Executive Officer.

He was introduced to folks from West Point by his ROTC Supervisors. They (later) told him they could help him get an appointment based on his grades and performance in ROTC. He considered it but in the end did not seek admission. There are “Service Connected” nominations for stellar High School ROTC appointments."

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/06/team-carson-politico-story-is-an-outright-lie/#ixzz3qoKhI71j

And, by the way, the informal offer of "a full scholarship" is also plausible. Contrary to my belief it was embellishment, it turns out that that is the way the army termed it:

He didn't lie about the offer, at worst he used the phrase "full scholarship" to embellish a description of the offer to get him into free West Point, based on his exceptional merits.

Of course he lied because it would never happen they way he claimed. I know this because I was so exceptional in high school all the military branches wanted me. The SEAL team 6 was begging me to join and I picked them because I didn't want to wear a silly french beret like the other special forces. I did so well in BUDS that the CIA recruited me immediately after hell week and I did missions for them no one else would or could do. They even expunged my military record in order to have plausible deniability.

You give us a rant about being a super Seal, a CIA agent that did jobs no one else could do, and then tell us that none of it can be proved because the CIA expunged your military record?

This is no longer a question of who is plausible, but who is the black helicopters kook?

 

[dismal]

Wait, you're not certain? Even though Westmoreland's schedule shows he was in a different state? What on earth would it take to make you certain?

BUT did attend a similar event attended by Carson three months earlier that year. Carson's memory mixed the two dinner events, the introduction must have occurred at the earlier dinner.

Yeah, I do that all the time. I meet a famous person one time who I respect tremendously and get what I hear to be an offer of a full scholarship, and I can't remember if it was at the one dinner or the other, I guess because I'm so used to meeting really famous people that I just get them all mixed up and it isn't a memorable event - the one having the famous person that makes my heart race and the other.... not having anyone famous at it.

Even the politico hit piece acknowledges westmoreland was in Detroit for an event similar to what Carson describes a few months before. Other than partisan pedantry, why is that an important detail? This is like one largely irrelevant paragraph in a long autobiography about a poor kid from Detroit who became a world famous brain surgeon. Who would actually think this claim renders his biography any more or less impressive?

Did you have similar big issues when it was revealed that Obama relied on fictional composite characters who conveniently appeared to say just the right thing to teach him important life lessons?

I would think the level of pedantry being demonstrated here would require that.

 

[Nexus]

Unless you are an fevered axe-grinder with an agenda, most people don't find it useful to argue against a few broad and imprecise sentences of what an author recalled 50 years ago.

This is completely wrong. I haven't even been following the presidential campaign other than casually browsing a few threads here. I don't care about this guy or have an agenda to destroy him. But I do enjoy deconstructing bullshit and my posts have done so in regards to his West Point lie.

For example, it is neither careless nor implausible that "later they" may have conveyed what amounts to (in Carson's view) an offer of an opportunity to attend West Point a get a free education. Whoever "they" are may have left an impression (intentionally or not) that given his exceptional ROTC service and grades, getting in is not a problem.

Of course its implausible someone offered him an informal opportunity. Let it be noted your quote here is an unsupported assertion about the selection process. I've explained why it's implausible. Here it is again. West Point only accepts 10% of their applicants. The 90% that don't make the cut already submitted letters of recommendation from senior officers as well as a nomination from a congressmen or the vice-president. It should be noted only 40% of the prospects seeking a nomination from their congressmen get one. You have to submit medical examines, essays, transcripts and SAT test scores. After you've done all that then your file goes to a selection committee. If you make it past all that then you might be in the lucky 10%. That's why some officer any officer would never tell a kid he's a shoe in and a scholarship is waiting if he wants it.

No, West Point would not have stopped him from pursuing medicine. On the other hand, any West Point education requires military service which, as he pointed out, was not where he wanted to go. If you want to know more on why he didn't wish to serve in the military just to go to medical school, you'll have to ask him. Or, as you seem inclined to do, you can just pick a fight with history and argue in ignorance.

I can't ask him because the guy's a liar. But what I can do is deconstruct the lie. If someone tells you they didn't do X because they wanted to do Y instead, that's only truthful if X prohibits Y. West point doesn't doesn't stop graduates from going to medical school. In fact they encourage it from their top students. And the US government pays for that medical school as well.

If you want to know more on why he didn't wish to serve in the military just to go to medical school, you'll have to ask him. Or, as you seem inclined to do, you can just pick a fight with history and argue in ignorance.

I re-quoted this because its astoundingly bad arguments. First, going to medical school is to meant to prepare one for a career as a physician it has zero value in determining whether someone is lying about potential military service. Second I'm not fighting with history. The history is he didn't go and there is no record he applied or was offered anything from West Point. You the one arguing in ignorance of how the West Point selection process works which is why you've been had by this charlatan. His story doesn't pass the smell test and if you had even minimal knowledge of the subject you could have recognized his bullshit.

But there is such a thing as what he described, whether or not you wish to call it an informal offer. Informal offer is his personal view of the intent behind the encouragement that transpired, not some "official" informal offer process.

Prove it. Name someone that got in the way you and Carson describe is possible. It has to be an officer in the 20th century. I'll concede that perhaps some amazing student in 1802 was appointed because George Washington was a family friend and made a few phone calls on his behalf.

You give us a rant about being a super Seal, a CIA agent that did jobs no one else could do, and then tell us that none of it can be proved because the CIA expunged your military record?

This is no longer a question of who is plausible, but who is the black helicopters kook?

I see you have some skepticism regarding claims of military accomplishment so hope is not lost on you. However you mixed up your ad homs. Stolen valor bluster doesn't not make a person a paranoid kook.

 

[Ford]

What a nothing story.

Welcome to the world you've created, right wingers.


Did it really matter that a young Barack "OMG his middle name is HUSSEIN!!!" Obama spent a few years living abroad and attending a school with Muslim kids? No, but the right wing blew that up into "Obama was educated in a Madrassa!"

Did it really matter that young Barack "That sounds awfully Muslim" Obama was familiar with the works of Saul Alinsky? No, but the right wing blew that up into "Obama is a disciple of Saul Alinsky!"

Did it really matter that Barack "That doesn't even sound American" Obama - who taught at the University of Chicago - knew another professor named Bill Ayers? No, but the right wing blew that up into "Obama is palling around with terrorists!"

Did it really matter that Barack "Oh, his dad was Muslim?" Obama was the child of a man not born in America? No, but the right wing wrapped their arms around the birth certificate fiasco and hugged it to death.

Just about every single facet of Obama's life and personal story were ripped apart by the right wing. Twisted meaningless associations into sinister plots. Repeated rumors as truth and fabrications as "where there's smoke, there's fire." Spent actual real money investigating the easily provable fact that he was born in Hawaii. Raised real money off the "secret Muslim" thing...and the Saul Alinsky thing...and the Bill Ayers thing.


So for Ben Carson and his ardent supporters who've taken to launching pot-shots at the big 'ole meanies in the "liberal" media, I say cry me a fucking river. Back in the 90s you made the sex life of politicians fair game, and your own guys got burned over and over again. You made insignificant details of Obama's life into a smear campaign, and now you are reaping what you so gleefully had sown.


I have no sympathy for Ben Carson whatsoever.

 

[Rhea]

Unless you are an fevered axe-grinder with an agenda, most people don't find it useful to argue against a few broad and imprecise sentences of what an author recalled 50 years ago.

No. max, come on. This isn't something he recalled off the cuff when asked. HE WROTE IT IN A BOOK, more than once. I mean, come on, please? You don't think people ought to make sure their own books get double checked? Really? It isn't some cocktail convo. it's published in a book. One doesn't "just misspoke" in their biography. Please, how pathetic would that be.

And he isn't just some guy who just said it over cocktails. He is running for President. Take it seriously. If you _did_ sloppily allow misstatements into your published book, then just own it and be embarrassed about how your recollection was never analyzed to make sure your memory was accurate.


Come on, we don't want anyone with excuses this weak and work this sloppy in the whitehouse.

(cue: but Hillary/Obama is Just as Bad! in 3, 2, 1...)

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

No. There is an infinitely different meaning between:

"I had an opportunity to attend west point but didn't pursue it"

and

"I was offered a full scholarship to west point, but turned it down"

17 year old Ben Carson might blur the difference, but 64 year old retired brain surgeon Ben Carson certainly knows the difference between being made an  Offer and Acceptance and how service academies and the military operate and how they don't. Or he has no business running for the position of Commander in Chief.

aa

What's surprising is the lengths you (Dismal) will go to to convince yourself that he's being truthful. He's done absolutely nothing that any other American or even any other world citizen has done in gaining admission to West Point (aside from those who actually apply). So by your own logic, absolutely every human on earth was "offered a full ride scholarship to West Point". They just all didn't apply. Yes, that's much more genuine.

Congrats Ben Carson, you are still unremarkable.

aa

Actually in this context there is no difference between "I was offered a full scholarship to..." and "I was offered entry to..." west point, they are functionally identical.

Except the part where he was 'offered' anything, which he wasn't. Just because I've heard of Harvard or talked to someone who went there doesn't mean I get to tell everyone "I turned down an offer" to go there. It is equivocation and lacks integrity - something Mr. Carson could have learned about at West Point had he actually gone.

WP entry and fully paid college is a package deal. Moreover, as you pointed out, this kind of nuance does not matter to an impoverished 17 year old who is being asked to apply by admired authority figures who tells him he is a shoe-in based on his impressive ROTC accomplishments and grades.

1) He wasn't an impoverished 17 year old when he wrote the books, or recounted the story several times. In fact he still hasn't clarified anything. His campaign manager who knows probably next to nothing about the scenario is the one trying to salvage his image among his faithful believers.
2) He wasn't a "shoe in" if he couldn't figure out how to apply or what an offer even means and based on his categorical lying, he wouldn't have lasted 2 weeks. Cadets are routinely bounced out of the academy for lying.

That 50 years after his life decision to turn down an opportunity for military service in order to pursue medicine, that four sentences in a 1992 memoir (and a few very brief retellings) turns into a faux moral earthquake (and false accusations by Politico), is just another reminder of the election season's eruption of stupid nothings as bloviated posturing.

That, and he's asking to be the commander in chief of the most powerful military force in the world - led predominately by West Point and other service academy graduates. The job requires integrity.

17 year old Ben Carson might blur the difference, but 64 year old retired brain surgeon Ben Carson certainly knows the difference between being made an  Offer and Acceptance and how service academies and the military operate and how they don't. Or he has no business running for the position of Commander in Chief.

Except that procedural "blurred difference" is not in dispute. He didn't say he got a formal institutional offer of scholarship or admission. He implied he "later' got an informal offer from an authority figure, based on his grades and ROTC merit.
The worst that can be said is that his little 1969 pride story was imprecise and more applicable to an offer for a state or private college. He didn't lie about the offer, at worst he used the phrase "full scholarship" to embellish a description of the offer to get him into free West Point, based on his exceptional merits.

Yes. And it is a lie. He didn't get anything from anyone at anytime suggesting that he could even so much as "get in" to West Point. It is a gross mischaracterization of what West Point is and how it works. At best, a recruiter may have told him he would be a good candidate for the admissions process. That is nowhere close to an offer of a full scholarship and even 17 year olds would know the difference (assuming they were good candidates for West Point admissions).

In other words, its not worthy of more than a footnoted exception and/or clarification (if that).

When and if he ever clarifies it, I will gladly revisit my position. I honestly don't know what he could possibly say that would run this whole thing back without looking like a complete idiot.

aa

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Yes. And it is a lie. He didn't get anything from anyone at anytime suggesting that he could even so much as "get in" to West Point. It is a gross mischaracterization of what West Point is and how it works. At best, a recruiter may have told him he would be a good candidate for the admissions process. That is nowhere close to an offer of a full scholarship and even 17 year olds would know the difference (assuming they were good candidates for West Point admissions).

This is exactly what happened. And Carson isn't so stupid as to not know and understand this. His book is a gross exaggeration or a lie. Take your pick.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

While it pains me to admit it, just like some of the conservative apologists in this and other threads, I am not entirely convinced that Carson was lying [at least deliberately]. Carson could have gotten the month wrong of when he and the general had dinner and then possibly a movie and sex. It also does seem plausible that General Westmoreland like many other sexually repressed conservative authority figures could have been either telling fibs to get some sex from a young man or he could have been involved in a conspiracy to get young men admitted to West Point where later he could try to get sex from them.

If you look at the General's life he has some red flags which while they do not prove he was a pervert each by themselves, they should be a cause for some suspicion:

• inviting young men to dinner to make promises about doing favors for them
• surrounding himself with younger males (boy scouts)
• surrounding himself with younger males (West Point early years)
• surrounding himself with younger males (West Point later years)
• superintendent of sunday school teachers

...and this gem from Wikipedia:

Westmoreland initially met his future wife, Katherine (Kitsy) Stevens Van Deusen, while stationed at Fort Sill; she was nine years old at the time and was the daughter of the post executive officer, Col. Edwin R. Van Deusen. Westmoreland met her again in North Carolina when she was nineteen and a student at UNC Greensboro. The couple married in May 1947 and later had three children

Look, I am not saying it's a certainty that General Westmoreland was a sexually repressed conservative who liked to have sex with young men or boys, but if conservative apologists are right, then maybe he was.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, at least he didn't marry her when she was nine.

General Westmoreland - slightly better than Mohammed.

 

[maxparrish]

Actually in this context there is no difference between "I was offered a full scholarship to..." and "I was offered entry to..." west point, they are functionally identical. ...

WP entry and fully paid college is a package deal. Moreover, as you pointed out, this kind of nuance does not matter to an impoverished 17 year old who is being asked to apply by admired authority figures who tells him he is a shoe-in based on his impressive ROTC accomplishments and grades.

Except the part where he was 'offered' anything, which he wasn't. Just because I've heard of Harvard or talked to someone who went there doesn't mean I get to tell everyone "I turned down an offer" to go there. It is equivocation and lacks integrity - something Mr. Carson could have learned about at West Point had he actually gone.

1) He wasn't an impoverished 17 year old when he wrote the books, or recounted the story several times. In fact he still hasn't clarified anything. His campaign manager who knows probably next to nothing about the scenario is the one trying to salvage his image among his faithful believers.

2) He wasn't a "shoe in" if he couldn't figure out how to apply or what an offer even means and based on his categorical lying, he wouldn't have lasted 2 weeks. Cadets are routinely bounced out of the academy for lying.

He wasn't offered anything (by anyone)?

Be reminded that this entire so-called "controversy" emanates from a story in the Politico by Cheney. Cheney disputes the date at which Carson and Westmoreland conversed, that Carson must have mixed up the dates of a similar dinner-banquet . THAT's IT! Cheney provides no contrary evidence to other aspects of Carson's account; he does he dispute that Carson was introduced to Westmoreland at a dinner-banquet to which both were invited, that Carson conversed with him, or that at a later date "an offer" from some WP connected officers happened. NONE.

And because Cheney disputes the date of the event, but not the later conversation Carson says led to the offer of a full-ride to West Point, why didn't Cheney try to track down and challenge that (or later) conversations? The story doesn’t say.

Building a claim based on lurid speculation and snarling disparagement is not evidence - heck, its not even an argument. Unless you can prove that we should consider Carson guilty till proven innocent, your case is a near-perfect vacuum.

... He didn't lie about the offer, at worst he used the phrase "full scholarship" to embellish a description of the offer to get him into free West Point, based on his exceptional merits.

Yes. And it is a lie. He didn't get anything from anyone at anytime suggesting that he could even so much as "get in" to West Point. It is a gross mischaracterization of what West Point is and how it works. At best, a recruiter may have told him he would be a good candidate for the admissions process. That is nowhere close to an offer of a full scholarship and even 17 year olds would know the difference (assuming they were good candidates for West Point admissions).

Once more you make an accusation of "lie" without evidence. Telling us "at best" what any particular WP connected or commanding officer may have offered (or Carson took as an informal offer) requires you to prove that he could not have considered a number of scenarios as an offer, and were impossible but you've provided nothing.

All this evidentiary impoverished anti-Carson table pounding is over a single sentence, and the meaning and unknown details behind the recollection of "Later...an offer of full scholarship to West Point". Posters are twisted in knots over arguing with THEIR speculated meanings, not his HIS meaning of "offer" and "full scholarship". So he and his campaign clarifies and gives his best recollection, and all we get are empty accusations of "liar" and unsupported claims of "impossible".

What IS impossible is to make a case that Carson lied. And after I looked at new evidence it is now impossible to claim he egregiously embellished by calling it "full scholarship".

In the 1970s and 1980s, as Hewitt reported, it was fairly common for recruiters to promise full scholarships to ROTC students. In fact, the "term" was commonly used in WP recruitment posters. See for yourself:

The "Only person you need to know is yourself" says plainly in the boxed area that men and women can take of the opportunity to attend West Point on a full scholarship (and it explains all the benefits of that scholarship).

And here is the original ad and text from another ad, saying the same thing:

And, by the way, this WP image and the full article link is from the 'massive national recruitment campaign' directed to black Americans in the latter half of the 1960s:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Q...ment scholarships&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q&f=false

The idea that it was impossible for Carson to have gotten an informal offer of an opportunity for full scholarship is totally daffy.

The unsupported smear fails; and the counter-factuals religate the smear to the LOL file.

 

[untermensche]

The idea that there it is impossible that Carson got an informal offer of opportunity for full scholarship is totally daffy.

The unsupported smear fails; and the counter-factuals religate the smear to the LOL file.

What do you make of his reason for not taking it?

Because you must know there are plenty of doctors in the military, even brain surgeons. I bet maybe even some West Point grads.

 

[maxparrish]

While it pains me to admit it, just like some of the conservative apologists in this and other threads, I am not entirely convinced that Carson was lying [at least deliberately]. Carson could have gotten the month wrong of when he and the general had dinner and then possibly a movie and sex. It also does seem plausible that General Westmoreland like many other sexually repressed conservative authority figures could have been either telling fibs to get some sex from a young man or he could have been involved in a conspiracy to get young men admitted to West Point where later he could try to get sex from them.

If you look at the General's life he has some red flags which while they do not prove he was a pervert each by themselves, they should be a cause for some suspicion:

• inviting young men to dinner to make promises about doing favors for them
• surrounding himself with younger males (boy scouts)
• surrounding himself with younger males (West Point early years)
• surrounding himself with younger males (West Point later years)
• superintendent of sunday school teachers

...and this gem from Wikipedia:

Westmoreland initially met his future wife, Katherine (Kitsy) Stevens Van Deusen, while stationed at Fort Sill; she was nine years old at the time and was the daughter of the post executive officer, Col. Edwin R. Van Deusen. Westmoreland met her again in North Carolina when she was nineteen and a student at UNC Greensboro. The couple married in May 1947 and later had three children

Look, I am not saying it's a certainty that General Westmoreland was a sexually repressed conservative who liked to have sex with young men or boys, but if conservative apologists are right, then maybe he was.

I think this is Don's way of saying "I ain't got shit".

 

[maxparrish]

The idea that there it is impossible that Carson got an informal offer of opportunity for full scholarship is totally daffy.

The unsupported smear fails; and the counter-factuals religate the smear to the LOL file.

What do you make of his reason for not taking it?

Because you must know there are plenty of doctors in the military, even brain surgeons. I bet maybe even some West Point grads.

Ask him. He has only stated that military service was not the path he wanted. In fact, most professionals do not choose the military for their education. Is that a crime?

 

[untermensche]

What do you make of his reason for not taking it?

Because you must know there are plenty of doctors in the military, even brain surgeons. I bet maybe even some West Point grads.

Ask him. He has only stated that military service was not the path he wanted. In fact, most professionals do not choose the military for their education. Is that a crime?

That's not what he said.

What he said was that he really really wanted to serve his country but he wanted to be a doctor so he couldn't.

His lies are lies upon lies.

 

[credoconsolans]

The idea that it was impossible for Carson to have gotten an informal offer of an opportunity for full scholarship is totally daffy.

The unsupported smear fails; and the counter-factuals religate the smear to the LOL file.

Except that wasn't what Carson said. He didn't say he was given the "opportunity" for a full scholarship, he said he WAS offered a full scholarship. Those are two different things.