Berlin choir accused of gender discrimination by nine-year-old girl

[ruby sparks]

I read online that the choir does not admit girls. and never has. It was founded in 1465.

I also read that this girl lost her case.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-girl-loses-gender-bias-case-against-boys-choir/a-50045520

 

[dismal]

I've been in a fair few choirs, and while I can definitely tell a boy's choir apart from a girl's choir pretty easily en masse, I also think it is fair to say that there is a lot of overt and sometimes ridiculous gender discrimination involved in the assignment of voice classes, and that there are not just many children, but indeed some adults, whose particular singing voices would not give me indication of their biological sex, let alone preferred gender, just by listening. I mean, I think most people could plug me as a tenor, but it's not as though I can't sing alto parts, and some of the guys in my section would be a lot harder to type if their singing was all you had to go by.

Perhaps blind auditions could resolve this? They are almost entirely what ended the gender apartheid in national orchestras, so I don't see why they couldn't do the same for national choirs. The voice is an instrument like any other. I don't think it would result in exactly equal balance in the case of choirs, but it wouldn't give you an absolute cutoff either.

Good suggestion.

Unlike banning state-run choirs, imo. Not sure why that should be done.

Why should someone be forced to pay taxes to fund a choir? If people won't fund it voluntarily why should it exist?

 

[Toni]

I've been in a fair few choirs, and while I can definitely tell a boy's choir apart from a girl's choir pretty easily en masse, I also think it is fair to say that there is a lot of overt and sometimes ridiculous gender discrimination involved in the assignment of voice classes, and that there are not just many children, but indeed some adults, whose particular singing voices would not give me indication of their biological sex, let alone preferred gender, just by listening. I mean, I think most people could plug me as a tenor, but it's not as though I can't sing alto parts, and some of the guys in my section would be a lot harder to type if their singing was all you had to go by.

Perhaps blind auditions could resolve this? They are almost entirely what ended the gender apartheid in national orchestras, so I don't see why they couldn't do the same for national choirs. The voice is an instrument like any other. I don't think it would result in exactly equal balance in the case of choirs, but it wouldn't give you an absolute cutoff either.

Good suggestion.

Unlike banning state-run choirs, imo. Not sure why that should be done.

Why should someone be forced to pay taxes to fund a choir? If people won't fund it voluntarily why should it exist?

Why should roads exist? Schools? Hospitals? Sanitation? FDA inspections? Or the military? I'd much rather pay for a choir than I would a tank.

Why shouldn't we just quit paying for government altogether and go back to feudal days?

 

[dismal]

Why should someone be forced to pay taxes to fund a choir? If people won't fund it voluntarily why should it exist?

Why should roads exist? Schools? Hospitals? Sanitation? FDA inspections? Or the military? I'd much rather pay for a choir than I would a tank.

Why shouldn't we just quit paying for government altogether and go back to feudal days?

There are probably places you can go to get the remedial arguments for these things.

Try googling "provision of public goods" or something like that.

 

[Toni]

Why should someone be forced to pay taxes to fund a choir? If people won't fund it voluntarily why should it exist?

Why should roads exist? Schools? Hospitals? Sanitation? FDA inspections? Or the military? I'd much rather pay for a choir than I would a tank.

Why shouldn't we just quit paying for government altogether and go back to feudal days?

There are probably places you can go to get the remedial arguments for these things.

Try googling "provision of public goods" or something like that.

But I was asking you.

 

[Ruth Harris]

I am a singer, have belonged to many choirs, and typically wind up as a featured soloist when one is needed for my voice range in any given performance.

I am also a female.

And I am appalled that someone would think it is a good thing to legally force a boys choir to accept girls. A choir performance is not just the voices; it also includes an intangible thing called "presence" that has nothing to do with the sound of the voices.

I was fortunate enough to be able to attend a performance of the Vienna Boys Choir, and the music was wonderful. But the real impact came from seeing and hearing all those boys sounding like angels. I am sure that this choir has the same effect. If you were to add girls to the choir, all you would have is just another children's choir.

Let us not sacrifice something this wonderful at the altar of political correctness. No one is saying that girls cannot belong to a choir with the same goals and opportunities. How any other choir forms and trains, be they made up of boys or girls or a mix, is entirely up to them and their supporters. There should be no restrictions on the founding basis for a choir, nor should they be forced to accept members who are outside their chosen base. Their achievements are then completely up to them and if the public does not show them favor by attending performances there is no one else to blame but themselves.

Ruth

 

[dismal]

There are probably places you can go to get the remedial arguments for these things.

Try googling "provision of public goods" or something like that.

But I was asking you.

And I told you exactly what to do if you if you would actually like to learn something.

 

[dismal]

I am a singer, have belonged to many choirs, and typically wind up as a featured soloist when one is needed for my voice range in any given performance.

I am also a female.

And I am appalled that someone would think it is a good thing to legally force a boys choir to accept girls. A choir performance is not just the voices; it also includes an intangible thing called "presence" that has nothing to do with the sound of the voices.

I was fortunate enough to be able to attend a performance of the Vienna Boys Choir, and the music was wonderful. But the real impact came from seeing and hearing all those boys sounding like angels. I am sure that this choir has the same effect. If you were to add girls to the choir, all you would have is just another children's choir.

Let us not sacrifice something this wonderful at the altar of political correctness. No one is saying that girls cannot belong to a choir with the same goals and opportunities. How any other choir forms and trains, be they made up of boys or girls or a mix, is entirely up to them and their supporters. There should be no restrictions on the founding basis for a choir, nor should they be forced to accept members who are outside their chosen base. Their achievements are then completely up to them and if the public does not show them favor by attending performances there is no one else to blame but themselves.

Ruth

It's not "political correctness" it's the law. "Governments should not treat men and women differently" is a reasonable principle. But when the government mixes itself up in things where it does not belong you get crazy results.

 

[Ruth Harris]

It's not "political correctness" it's the law. "Governments should not treat men and women differently" is a reasonable principle. But when the government mixes itself up in things where it does not belong you get crazy results.

Nonsense. This choir has been in existence since 1465 in its current format, and is a point of national pride. Have we come to the point that "gender equality" now requires the reduction of everything to the lowest common denominator?

There are other state funded choirs, some of them as renowned as this one, which include girls. I have not seen any mention of this girl applying to any of them. It seems to me that this is more likely to be a political issue pushed by the girl's mother than the girl actually wanting to be in this particular choir, given her young age.

I have no objection to the government funding artistic endeavours. However, artistic freedom should be paramount. I have seen many government funded projects in the arts and even though I don't personally like many of them I don't demand they be defunded or made to incorporate current political thought.

Ruth

 

[Toni]

There are probably places you can go to get the remedial arguments for these things.

Try googling "provision of public goods" or something like that.

But I was asking you.

And I told you exactly what to do if you if you would actually like to learn something.

I asked you why you believed there should be no government funding for choirs.
What I am inferring is that you don’t actually know the answer or not well enough to adequately articulate your thoughts. You just parrot government is bad. Got it.

FWIW, I’ve been familiar with all the libertarian arguments since before the days of the internets.

 

[Half-Life]

Fake oppression nonsense. Let's have this girl flown to Muslim countries and see all the real oppression of women that goes on there. Let her watch a women beheaded right in front of her for not wearing the hijab. She'd shut up real quick.

The right is getting sick and tired of this "fake oppression" that first world women claim to have it so bad. They don't have a clue what suffering is like.

 

[Politesse]

Fake oppression nonsense. Let's have this girl flown to Muslim countries and see all the real oppression of women that goes on there. Let her watch a women beheaded right in front of her for not wearing the hijab. She'd shut up real quick.

The right is getting sick and tired of this "fake oppression" that first world women claim to have it so bad. They don't have a clue what suffering is like.

Ah, yes. Women should be so grateful you don't want to chop their heads off in the street, they should shut up about having any other rights than the one set by that incredibly low bar. Or, well, you did openly and publically fantasize about doing exactly that to a little girl, but only when prompted by a news story about how she wanted be in a choir. What the fuck? If disgusting fantasies like that are the baseline, women absolutely need legal protection from the men around them.

 

[dismal]

It's not "political correctness" it's the law. "Governments should not treat men and women differently" is a reasonable principle. But when the government mixes itself up in things where it does not belong you get crazy results.

Nonsense. This choir has been in existence since 1465 in its current format, and is a point of national pride. Have we come to the point that "gender equality" now requires the reduction of everything to the lowest common denominator?

There are other state funded choirs, some of them as renowned as this one, which include girls. I have not seen any mention of this girl applying to any of them. It seems to me that this is more likely to be a political issue pushed by the girl's mother than the girl actually wanting to be in this particular choir, given her young age.

I have no objection to the government funding artistic endeavours. However, artistic freedom should be paramount. I have seen many government funded projects in the arts and even though I don't personally like many of them I don't demand they be defunded or made to incorporate current political thought.

Ruth

I'm sure German laws and interpretation of German laws regarding gender equality have changed since 1465.

For example, this guy is using US Title IX suits to end gender discriminating state funded programs and it doesn't seem to have much to do with "political correctness".

http://www.aei.org/publication/more-on-my-efforts-to-advance-diversity-equity-and-inclusion/

 

[Half-Life]

Fake oppression nonsense. Let's have this girl flown to Muslim countries and see all the real oppression of women that goes on there. Let her watch a women beheaded right in front of her for not wearing the hijab. She'd shut up real quick.

The right is getting sick and tired of this "fake oppression" that first world women claim to have it so bad. They don't have a clue what suffering is like.

Ah, yes. Women should be so grateful you don't want to chop their heads off in the street, they should shut up about having any other rights than the one set by that incredibly low bar. Or, well, you did openly and publically fantasize about doing exactly that to a little girl, but only when prompted by a news story about how she wanted be in a choir. What the fuck? If disgusting fantasies like that are the baseline, women absolutely need legal protection from the men around them.

They seem to not know how bad it is for women in Islam, considering feminists usually support Islam. Pretty sick stuff. They are polar opposites. It would be like the KKK supporting the Black Panthers.

 

[Jarhyn]

Fake oppression nonsense. Let's have this girl flown to Muslim countries and see all the real oppression of women that goes on there. Let her watch a women beheaded right in front of her for not wearing the hijab. She'd shut up real quick.

The right is getting sick and tired of this "fake oppression" that first world women claim to have it so bad. They don't have a clue what suffering is like.

Ah, yes. Women should be so grateful you don't want to chop their heads off in the street, they should shut up about having any other rights than the one set by that incredibly low bar. Or, well, you did openly and publically fantasize about doing exactly that to a little girl, but only when prompted by a news story about how she wanted be in a choir. What the fuck? If disgusting fantasies like that are the baseline, women absolutely need legal protection from the men around them.

They seem to not know how bad it is for women in Islam, considering feminists usually support Islam. Pretty sick stuff. They are polar opposites. It would be like the KKK supporting the Black Panthers.

How bad it is for women in theocratic ethno-nationalist hyperconservative fascist states doesn't speak to how "bad it is" for women "in Islam" outside of hyperconservative ethnonationalist fascist states.

The left can support people in their freedom of (and if necessary, from) religion independently of our views on hyperconservative ethnonationalist fascist states, which we generally oppose.

We keep pointing this out to you, but then again, you also seem to think not supporting an ethnonationalist fascist state of Israel is failing to support Jews, so I don't think there is any hope for you. You seem unable to separate ethnonationalist hyperconservative fascists from the rest as groups.

 

[ruby sparks]

Why should someone be forced to pay taxes to fund a choir? If people won't fund it voluntarily why should it exist?

Did you check how much assistance it gets from the state versus how much from other sources and how much money it makes? No. Do you know whether Germans are happy to contribute towards supporting the arts? No.

You would stop the funding. Good for you. That's something you have in Common with Donald Trump. Although he failed.

 

[Half-Life]

They seem to not know how bad it is for women in Islam, considering feminists usually support Islam. Pretty sick stuff. They are polar opposites. It would be like the KKK supporting the Black Panthers.

How bad it is for women in theocratic ethno-nationalist hyperconservative fascist states doesn't speak to how "bad it is" for women "in Islam" outside of hyperconservative ethnonationalist fascist states.

The left can support people in their freedom of (and if necessary, from) religion independently of our views on hyperconservative ethnonationalist fascist states, which we generally oppose.

We keep pointing this out to you, but then again, you also seem to think not supporting an ethnonationalist fascist state of Israel is failing to support Jews, so I don't think there is any hope for you. You seem unable to separate ethnonationalist hyperconservative fascists from the rest as groups.

But the problem is that the women who are not in those "fascist states" do not seem to care about the women that are. What kind of message is Ilhan Omar sending by wearing the hijab in America while she knows people in Muslim countries get beheaded for choosing not to wear it? Those women would spit on the hijab and there is Ilhan, wearing one with all smiles. Just take the damn thing off!! Show your support for the other women who can NEVER take it off!!!!

 

[Jarhyn]

They seem to not know how bad it is for women in Islam, considering feminists usually support Islam. Pretty sick stuff. They are polar opposites. It would be like the KKK supporting the Black Panthers.

How bad it is for women in theocratic ethno-nationalist hyperconservative fascist states doesn't speak to how "bad it is" for women "in Islam" outside of hyperconservative ethnonationalist fascist states.

The left can support people in their freedom of (and if necessary, from) religion independently of our views on hyperconservative ethnonationalist fascist states, which we generally oppose.

We keep pointing this out to you, but then again, you also seem to think not supporting an ethnonationalist fascist state of Israel is failing to support Jews, so I don't think there is any hope for you. You seem unable to separate ethnonationalist hyperconservative fascists from the rest as groups.

But the problem is that the women who are not in those "fascist states" do not seem to care about the women that are. What kind of message is Ilhan Omar sending by wearing the hijab in America while she knows people in Muslim countries get beheaded for choosing not to wear it? Those women would spit on the hijab and there is Ilhan, wearing one with all smiles. Just take the damn thing off!! Show your support for the other women who can NEVER take it off!!!!

She's sending the message that she has faith. Is she supposed to do something against her faith just because someone forces others who do not share her faith into it?

Should we expect YOU to go and have gay sex to support all the people in Christian African nations for whom there is a death penalty? Show your support for all the people who can't fuck people of the same gender, eh?

 

[Playball40]

Fake oppression nonsense. Let's have this girl flown to Muslim countries and see all the real oppression of women that goes on there. Let her watch a women beheaded right in front of her for not wearing the hijab. She'd shut up real quick.

The right is getting sick and tired of this "fake oppression" that first world women claim to have it so bad. They don't have a clue what suffering is like.

She's NINE. What the fuck is WRONG with you?

 

[Keith&Co.]

But the problem is that the women who are not in those "fascist states" do not seem to care about the women that are. What kind of message is Ilhan Omar sending by wearing the hijab in America while she knows people in Muslim countries get beheaded for choosing not to wear it? Those women would spit on the hijab and there is Ilhan, wearing one with all smiles. Just take the damn thing off!! Show your support for the other women who can NEVER take it off!!!!

Or, YOU could wear a hijab, showing your support for those women. Send the message that this country accepts and cherishes religious freedom, even religions you do not share.
Be brace, Half.
You cannot force anyone else to change unless you do.