Biden administration announces partial student loan forgiveness

[Worldtraveller]

...
So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

Hey now, I'm on your side here!

I know I know. I’m a STEM person but I’m also sick of the rhetoric that only STEM careers are worthwhile.

Same.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

That doesn't mean those liberal arts degrees will be put to any real use. I'm thinking of the daughter of someone I used to know. I don't remember the exact details but there were two degree options in the same basic field. She took the easier one--and then was surprised when nobody would hire her.

Jebus, read my post in its context and comment on that, instead of an isolated statement.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

Some kids majored in liberal arts because they are good at writing, art, music, history, economics, sociology, psychology and other subjects which are not math or science or computers. And they enjoyed those subjects and are well employed and self supporting and create all kinds of things we all enjoy.

FFS, as a science major coming from a family of people who were pushed into math and science and did very well in those fields: not everyone in those fields is smart, completed their degree, is employed, is employed in those fields or is a decent human being. Definitely not all are happy in those careers. STEM careers are not the only career paths that are worthwhile, productive, lucrative, essential to society or worth pursuing.

So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

I'm not stuffing anything. While degrees have certain values (and STEM degrees do have a higher value), the big problem is the modification of the work force, which has greatly impacted hiring. And college students have absolutely no influence with that. The Great Recession changed things... and computer automation continues to eat jobs. Wherever anyone works, I can bet there are fewer overhead positions at their workplace on average, and it isn't because the company is doing less work.

Kids these days are graduating with degrees worth less than what they used to be worth, at a cost much higher than they used to be, with a shrinking good paying job economy, where health care costs are so much more expensive, and housing is becoming well out of reach in so many regions. So many people want to judge todays grads using the model they grew up in. That world doesn't exist now... not remotely! Oh woah is the arts major... so is woah the science major that got a Master's Degree! These kids are all suffering from these conditions, regardless of their degree.

 

[Toni]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

Some kids majored in liberal arts because they are good at writing, art, music, history, economics, sociology, psychology and other subjects which are not math or science or computers. And they enjoyed those subjects and are well employed and self supporting and create all kinds of things we all enjoy.

FFS, as a science major coming from a family of people who were pushed into math and science and did very well in those fields: not everyone in those fields is smart, completed their degree, is employed, is employed in those fields or is a decent human being. Definitely not all are happy in those careers. STEM careers are not the only career paths that are worthwhile, productive, lucrative, essential to society or worth pursuing.

So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

I'm not stuffing anything. While degrees have certain values (and STEM degrees do have a higher value), the big problem is the modification of the work force, which has greatly impacted hiring. And college students have absolutely no influence with that. The Great Recession changed things... and computer automation continues to eat jobs. Wherever anyone works, I can bet there are fewer overhead positions at their workplace on average, and it isn't because the company is doing less work.

Kids these days are graduating with degrees worth less than what they used to be worth, at a cost much higher than they used to be, with a shrinking good paying job economy, where health care costs are so much more expensive, and housing is becoming well out of reach in so many regions. So many people want to judge todays grads using the model they grew up in. That world doesn't exist now... not remotely! Oh woah is the arts major... so is woah the science major that got a Master's Degree! These kids are all suffering from these conditions, regardless of their degree.

You know who some of the richest people/ highest paid people are? Creative people such as writers, artists, actors, musicians. Look around whatever space you are in now: Someone with an arts background helped design that.

You know what fields we urgently need more people in? Electricians, plumbers, carpenters.

You know who we really really need a lot more of but honestly aren’t funding positions? Mental health workers. Not just past his trusts, although those are urgently needed but also psychologists and social workers and counselors.

That’s just for starters.

Lots and lots of people I know in STEM fields are very burned out because they really need to have their creative and emotional needs met.

 

[laughing dog]

Should a PHD in art or musc history from Harvard be paid for by average Americans? I do not think so. As we speak stidents are still taking on debt with no idea or plan on how to pay it back.

First, why would you think that any PhD student took on debt to get their doctorate? Second, why would you think the average taxpayer (who is not the average American) would necessarily end up paying for any student debt?

 

[Jarhyn]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

Some kids majored in liberal arts because they are good at writing, art, music, history, economics, sociology, psychology and other subjects which are not math or science or computers. And they enjoyed those subjects and are well employed and self supporting and create all kinds of things we all enjoy.

FFS, as a science major coming from a family of people who were pushed into math and science and did very well in those fields: not everyone in those fields is smart, completed their degree, is employed, is employed in those fields or is a decent human being. Definitely not all are happy in those careers. STEM careers are not the only career paths that are worthwhile, productive, lucrative, essential to society or worth pursuing.

So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

I'm not stuffing anything. While degrees have certain values (and STEM degrees do have a higher value), the big problem is the modification of the work force, which has greatly impacted hiring. And college students have absolutely no influence with that. The Great Recession changed things... and computer automation continues to eat jobs. Wherever anyone works, I can bet there are fewer overhead positions at their workplace on average, and it isn't because the company is doing less work.

Kids these days are graduating with degrees worth less than what they used to be worth, at a cost much higher than they used to be, with a shrinking good paying job economy, where health care costs are so much more expensive, and housing is becoming well out of reach in so many regions. So many people want to judge todays grads using the model they grew up in. That world doesn't exist now... not remotely! Oh woah is the arts major... so is woah the science major that got a Master's Degree! These kids are all suffering from these conditions, regardless of their degree.

You know who some of the richest people/ highest paid people are? Creative people such as writers, artists, actors, musicians. Look around whatever space you are in now: Someone with an arts background helped design that.

You know what fields we urgently need more people in? Electricians, plumbers, carpenters.

You know who we really really need a lot more of but honestly aren’t funding positions? Mental health workers. Not just past his trusts, although those are urgently needed but also psychologists and social workers and counselors.

That’s just for starters.

Lots and lots of people I know in STEM fields are very burned out because they really need to have their creative and emotional needs met.

This is one of the reasons I would love to go back to college: to fill a seat in a series of art courses; to fill a seat in a series of math courses.

Both because I wish to do and make something fundamentally beautiful

 

[Toni]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

Some kids majored in liberal arts because they are good at writing, art, music, history, economics, sociology, psychology and other subjects which are not math or science or computers. And they enjoyed those subjects and are well employed and self supporting and create all kinds of things we all enjoy.

FFS, as a science major coming from a family of people who were pushed into math and science and did very well in those fields: not everyone in those fields is smart, completed their degree, is employed, is employed in those fields or is a decent human being. Definitely not all are happy in those careers. STEM careers are not the only career paths that are worthwhile, productive, lucrative, essential to society or worth pursuing.

So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

I'm not stuffing anything. While degrees have certain values (and STEM degrees do have a higher value), the big problem is the modification of the work force, which has greatly impacted hiring. And college students have absolutely no influence with that. The Great Recession changed things... and computer automation continues to eat jobs. Wherever anyone works, I can bet there are fewer overhead positions at their workplace on average, and it isn't because the company is doing less work.

Kids these days are graduating with degrees worth less than what they used to be worth, at a cost much higher than they used to be, with a shrinking good paying job economy, where health care costs are so much more expensive, and housing is becoming well out of reach in so many regions. So many people want to judge todays grads using the model they grew up in. That world doesn't exist now... not remotely! Oh woah is the arts major... so is woah the science major that got a Master's Degree! These kids are all suffering from these conditions, regardless of their degree.

You know who some of the richest people/ highest paid people are? Creative people such as writers, artists, actors, musicians. Look around whatever space you are in now: Someone with an arts background helped design that.

You know what fields we urgently need more people in? Electricians, plumbers, carpenters.

You know who we really really need a lot more of but honestly aren’t funding positions? Mental health workers. Not just past his trusts, although those are urgently needed but also psychologists and social workers and counselors.

That’s just for starters.

Lots and lots of people I know in STEM fields are very burned out because they really need to have their creative and emotional needs met.

Crappy auto correct: not just PSYCHIATRISTS.

Thank you all for being kind and understanding what I thought I typed.

My phone hates me.

 

[atrib]

It is not forgivness. It is taxpayers paying off personal loans.

So?

The left likes to use euphemisms. Sanders makes liberal ise of the word 'free'.

Why should an average wage earner supporting a family subsidize a degree for which the student has no hope of using it to make a living wage. Loan forgiveness is a euphemism for other people paying for it.

Because it is good for society. Our society is better with an educated populace, and not just educated in writing code or designing technology. We need teachers and poets and artists as much as we need engineers and programmers. Taxpayers also build and fund schools that their children do not attend, build roads they will never drive on, and fund research into technology they may never use in their lifetime. That is the cost of living in a civilized society.

I can not imagine anyone on the left going on TV and saying 'I think taxpayers should support college tuition for everyone'. They say it should be free. The usuakl political bullshit.

Should a PHD in art or musc history from Harvard be paid for by average Americans? I do not think so. As we speak stidents are still taking on debt with no idea or plan on how to pay it back.

Yes. Just as the society should pay for or subsidize an education in physics or engineering.

And for the record, a vast majority of PhD students in the US are funded by teaching and/or research assistantships, where they are expected to work, doing research and/or teaching classes, in return for a partial or full waiver of their tuition and a monthly stipend to live on. And a vast majority of PhD students do not attend Harvard.

 

[atrib]

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

That doesn't mean those liberal arts degrees will be put to any real use. I'm thinking of the daughter of someone I used to know. I don't remember the exact details but there were two degree options in the same basic field. She took the easier one--and then was surprised when nobody would hire her.

The degrees may not be directly put to use in getting a high-paying job, but the education they receive in achieving the degree stays with them the rest of their lives. We need artists and writers and history teachers as much as we need programmers and engineers.

 

[thebeave]

So, let's say we do provide at least some student loan forgiveness. What happens going forward? Are we going to do it again in another 10 years, ad nauseum?

 

[Politesse]

So, let's say we do provide at least some student loan forgiveness. What happens going forward? Are we going to do it again in another 10 years, ad nauseum?

That is my problem with this -- I don't like the thought of a future where policymakers refuse to fix any of the serious and substantial problems with the corporate-educational complex, on the grounds of "we forgave everyone's loans, what more do you want?" Like a company that concedes a one time pay raise to buy off the union for a few years, but refuses to touch the contract that actually created the problems.

 

[Swammerdami]

I've not been a fan of student loan forgiveness but this article in New Yorker may change my mind. Click now: "This story is free to read for a limited time."

The article touches on various matters; here are just two points that caught my eye:

. . . And, owing to negligent bookkeeping, I.D.R.’s promise of cancellation has proved to be mere mirage: as of 2021, more than four million borrowers could have accessed I.D.R. loan cancellation, but only a hundred and fifty-seven had ever received it.
. . .
The lack of information around student loans infuriates borrowers and social scientists alike. “I’ve never seen a nationally known topic that is so void of information,” Daniel Collier, an assistant professor of higher and adult education who researches income-driven-repayment programs, said. But, perhaps more profoundly, a lack of clear information has allowed the system to operate without accountability.