Biden administration announces partial student loan forgiveness

[bilby]

You’re looking at education as a private good rather than a public good. And as job training rather than education. Society benefits from a well educated populace. Better educated people are better able to be informed on issues of the day. They tend to be happier and healthier people and, regardless of whether or not they work in the field in which they earned their degree, they tend to earn more money. They tend to make better choices in life. All of these things lead to a more stable, more productive society.

I see this as a good thing

Not if you are a Republican. How could their party possibly survive, let alone thrive, in a country where there are no barriers to education? So many of their party positions require scientific illiteracy to seem tenable, to the point of being wholly unaware of climatology, geology, epidemiology, and most of the social sciences.

They want people to have the education necessary to be productive workers, but not the education necessary to be effective troublemakers.

 

[Metaphor]

Spending four years obtaining a degree in Medieval Church Architecture, and then becoming a plumber or a truck driver, harms nobody.

It would harm nobody if the cost to provide the degree was nothing.

But that isn't the cost.

 

[Metaphor]

Making a loan is a sunk cost.
Forgiving the loan means you will not get income from that cost.

But that means you don't have the income you expected. You can't spend as much on other things as you intended. You're pulling the standard leftist handwave of pretending something sufficiently dispersed ceases to exist.

All lenders always risk that they will not be paid back. The risk is reflected in the interest charged. In my example, I was charging 5% interest which is higher than today’s mortgage rates or car loans.

Failure to repay a loan generally is reflected in a credit score.

You’re looking at education as a private good rather than a public good. And as job training rather than education. Society benefits from a well educated populace. Better educated people are better able to be informed on issues of the day. They tend to be happier and healthier people and, regardless of whether or not they work in the field in which they earned their degree, they tend to earn more money. They tend to make better choices in life. All of these things lead to a more stable, more productive society.

I see this as a good thing.

You didn't address Loren's question at all.

You failing to get paid back means you don't have the money you would have had. Your assertion that government forgiving debt harms nobody is wrong.

 

[Metaphor]

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.

Then they should stop trying to impose their lifestyle on others, and start living a little.

Needless sacrifice isn't noble, it's stupid. And complaining when others choose not to be stupid, because you suffered and therefore they should too, is being a selfish cunt.

Society is about people helping each other. If you opt out, that's your stupid choice - but not an excuse to insist that others should do the same.

You have it backwards--they keep being asked to bail out the ones who lived irresponsibility. Live with the consequences of your irresponsibility, don't ask us to bail you out!

How is anyone harmed by forgiving student debt?

The debt doesn't just disappear. It's going to be paid by the taxpayers.

No, it was already paid by the taxpayers. They're just no longer anticipating getting their money back.

So, the taxpayers aren't harmed by not getting their money back?

You might feel that way when you are loaning out your own money, but I am certainly harmed when I loan out money and I am not paid back.

 

[Metaphor]

If I loan you and bilby each $100 on the promise that you’ll each pay me back the $100 plus $5 interest and bilby pays me back but you lost your job and I say that’s ok, metaphor, you don’t have to pay me back, bilby’s loan repayment does not cover your loan debt. I erased it because you needed the break.

If bilby lost his job and couldn’t pay me back and I insisted he do so even if he couldn’t afford it, then I would be unfair towards bilby.

That would help no one.

And now you are out $105 that you can't spend on something else.

I never lend money I cannot afford to lose.

So what?

What you do with your own money is your business. You can give away your entire wealth if you want.

 

[bigfield]

If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.

Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.

And, these bonds don't have interest rates and the principal does not need to be paid back?

Why tax people at all if we can just issue bonds?

I was just pointing out that there is in fact another way to forgive loans without having less money to spend on other things.

You don't need to believe it's the correct course of action.

Bonds = increase the federal debt = increase the interest paid on the federal debt = less money to spend on other things.

Those are future costs, affecting future federal budgets. It doesn't reduce the amount of money government has to spend.

Forgiving students loans also increases the amount of money that people are able to spend in the economy, and this translates into future revenues that offset the costs of issuing bonds.

In fact, the government doesn't even need to print bonds. They can just forgive the debts and wait to see what effect that has on inflation.

Any federal debt forgiveness immediately increases the federal debt. Federal debt is the result of current income - expenses. When expenses are greater, debt goes up. When calculating federal income (which is mostly taxes); debt repayment is assumed to be income. So, if it's forgiven, it's an immediate decrease to federal income.

Right, but a decrease to federal income doesn't necessarily mean, as Loren put it, "less money to spend on other things." The government can still spend what they need to, and there are several ways to manage the effects of that spending.

 

[Toni]

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.

Then they should stop trying to impose their lifestyle on others, and start living a little.

Needless sacrifice isn't noble, it's stupid. And complaining when others choose not to be stupid, because you suffered and therefore they should too, is being a selfish cunt.

Society is about people helping each other. If you opt out, that's your stupid choice - but not an excuse to insist that others should do the same.

You have it backwards--they keep being asked to bail out the ones who lived irresponsibility. Live with the consequences of your irresponsibility, don't ask us to bail you out!

How is anyone harmed by forgiving student debt?

The debt doesn't just disappear. It's going to be paid by the taxpayers.

No, it was already paid by the taxpayers. They're just no longer anticipating getting their money back.

So, the taxpayers aren't harmed by not getting their money back?

You might feel that way when you are loaning out your own money, but I am certainly harmed when I loan out money and I am not paid back.

Which, with respect to US student loans, does not affect you.

 

[Toni]

If I loan you and bilby each $100 on the promise that you’ll each pay me back the $100 plus $5 interest and bilby pays me back but you lost your job and I say that’s ok, metaphor, you don’t have to pay me back, bilby’s loan repayment does not cover your loan debt. I erased it because you needed the break.

If bilby lost his job and couldn’t pay me back and I insisted he do so even if he couldn’t afford it, then I would be unfair towards bilby.

That would help no one.

And now you are out $105 that you can't spend on something else.

I never lend money I cannot afford to lose.

So what?

What you do with your own money is your business. You can give away your entire wealth if you want.

Yes, I can.

 

[Toni]

Spending four years obtaining a degree in Medieval Church Architecture, and then becoming a plumber or a truck driver, harms nobody.

It would harm nobody if the cost to provide the degree was nothing.

But that isn't the cost.

Beyond a minimum enrollment in a particular class, every student enrolled past that break even point helps subsidize other programs and other parts of the university.

Also not the point.

The cost of ignorance is enormous and negatively affects every portion of society.

 

[Metaphor]

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.

Then they should stop trying to impose their lifestyle on others, and start living a little.

Needless sacrifice isn't noble, it's stupid. And complaining when others choose not to be stupid, because you suffered and therefore they should too, is being a selfish cunt.

Society is about people helping each other. If you opt out, that's your stupid choice - but not an excuse to insist that others should do the same.

You have it backwards--they keep being asked to bail out the ones who lived irresponsibility. Live with the consequences of your irresponsibility, don't ask us to bail you out!

How is anyone harmed by forgiving student debt?

The debt doesn't just disappear. It's going to be paid by the taxpayers.

No, it was already paid by the taxpayers. They're just no longer anticipating getting their money back.

So, the taxpayers aren't harmed by not getting their money back?

You might feel that way when you are loaning out your own money, but I am certainly harmed when I loan out money and I am not paid back.

Which, with respect to US student loans, does not affect you.

Sure it would, even if indirectly.

But, whether the US partially forgives or entirely forgives select student loans, you are misleading people to say it harms nobody. It harms the US taxpayer and it harms the moral fabric of US society.

 

[Metaphor]

Spending four years obtaining a degree in Medieval Church Architecture, and then becoming a plumber or a truck driver, harms nobody.

It would harm nobody if the cost to provide the degree was nothing.

But that isn't the cost.

Beyond a minimum enrollment in a particular class, every student enrolled past that break even point helps subsidize other programs and other parts of the university.

I have no idea what you think this sentence has to do with anything. It costs money to provide degrees. If it did not, this entire thread would be pointless.

Also not the point.

The cost of ignorance is enormous and negatively affects every portion of society.

This sentence has even less to do with anything than your previous sentence.

 

[ZiprHead]

If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.

Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.

And, these bonds don't have interest rates and the principal does not need to be paid back?

Why tax people at all if we can just issue bonds?

I was just pointing out that there is in fact another way to forgive loans without having less money to spend on other things.

You don't need to believe it's the correct course of action.

Bonds = increase the federal debt = increase the interest paid on the federal debt = less money to spend on other things.

Those are future costs, affecting future federal budgets. It doesn't reduce the amount of money government has to spend.

Forgiving students loans also increases the amount of money that people are able to spend in the economy, and this translates into future revenues that offset the costs of issuing bonds.

In fact, the government doesn't even need to print bonds. They can just forgive the debts and wait to see what effect that has on inflation.

Any federal debt forgiveness immediately increases the federal debt. Federal debt is the result of current income - expenses. When expenses are greater, debt goes up. When calculating federal income (which is mostly taxes); debt repayment is assumed to be income. So, if it's forgiven, it's an immediate decrease to federal income.

Right, but a decrease to federal income doesn't necessarily mean, as Loren put it, "less money to spend on other things." The government can still spend what they need to, and there are several ways to manage the effects of that spending.

Trump's tax cut for the rich cost us far more than this plan and had no redeeming qualities for the state of the nation. Getting hundreds of thousands of people out of crushing debt will have huge implications.

 

[Toni]

Spending four years obtaining a degree in Medieval Church Architecture, and then becoming a plumber or a truck driver, harms nobody.

It would harm nobody if the cost to provide the degree was nothing.

But that isn't the cost.

Beyond a minimum enrollment in a particular class, every student enrolled past that break even point helps subsidize other programs and other parts of the university.

I have no idea what you think this sentence has to do with anything. It costs money to provide degrees. If it did not, this entire thread would be pointless.

Also not the point.

The cost of ignorance is enormous and negatively affects every portion of society.

This sentence has even less to do with anything than your previous sentence.

I'm sorry that you do not understand the business side of running a university.

 

[Toni]

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.

Then they should stop trying to impose their lifestyle on others, and start living a little.

Needless sacrifice isn't noble, it's stupid. And complaining when others choose not to be stupid, because you suffered and therefore they should too, is being a selfish cunt.

Society is about people helping each other. If you opt out, that's your stupid choice - but not an excuse to insist that others should do the same.

You have it backwards--they keep being asked to bail out the ones who lived irresponsibility. Live with the consequences of your irresponsibility, don't ask us to bail you out!

How is anyone harmed by forgiving student debt?

The debt doesn't just disappear. It's going to be paid by the taxpayers.

No, it was already paid by the taxpayers. They're just no longer anticipating getting their money back.

So, the taxpayers aren't harmed by not getting their money back?

You might feel that way when you are loaning out your own money, but I am certainly harmed when I loan out money and I am not paid back.

Which, with respect to US student loans, does not affect you.

Sure it would, even if indirectly.

But, whether the US partially forgives or entirely forgives select student loans, you are misleading people to say it harms nobody. It harms the US taxpayer and it harms the moral fabric of US society.

I think it helps mend the moral fabric of US society. I think forgiving student loans is a net gain for the US economy and the US as a nation.

Your feefees to the contrary.

 

[Toni]

Kids today are very likely to graduate with over $100K in student debt if they attend a state school and have parental help/part time jobs to help pay their living expenses. I can tell you for certain that working one or several low paid part time jobs in order to support yourself while you take classes does indeed take time away from one's ability to focus on what should be your main job: going to school. To do so for 4 or more years and then to still graduate with $100K+ debt is an unfair burden that forces graduates to delay things like marriage, families, home ownership. This is not a choice we had to make when we were young. We merely had to be willing to endure being poor for about 6 years after undergrad years--so for at least 10 years.

I don’t know why the public universities are not pressured to lower costs. (Oh, wait, yes I do. University employees make large $$$ donations to Dem causes so they cannot be criticized.). Andrew Yang floated the idea of requiring universities to charge a low credit hour if they wanted fed money. We should do that. We already do it with Medicare.

There is tremendous pressure on universities to keep costs down. I don’t know about other states but in my state, any increase in tuition must be approved by state legislators. Building projects and larger maintenance projects also are subject to state bonding and compete with all sorts of other bonding projects throughout the state.

Your opinion that universities have state legislators in their pocket is predicated on the assumption that state legislative bodies are dominated by the Democratic Party. This is obviously untrue.

You also opine that the states should force universities to lower the tuition like Medicare. As I mentioned before, at least in my state, any change in tuition requires legislative approval.

The other fact that you seem ignorant of is the fact that many medical providers are forced to limit the number of Medicare patients they see because Medicare reimbursements do not cover the cost of care.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.

Then they should stop trying to impose their lifestyle on others, and start living a little.

Needless sacrifice isn't noble, it's stupid. And complaining when others choose not to be stupid, because you suffered and therefore they should too, is being a selfish cunt.

Society is about people helping each other. If you opt out, that's your stupid choice - but not an excuse to insist that others should do the same.

You have it backwards--they keep being asked to bail out the ones who lived irresponsibility. Live with the consequences of your irresponsibility, don't ask us to bail you out!

How is anyone harmed by forgiving student debt?

The debt doesn't just disappear. It's going to be paid by the taxpayers.

No, it was already paid by the taxpayers. They're just no longer anticipating getting their money back.

Calling it 7 days rather than a week doesn't change the situation.

It's going to come out of taxpayer's pockets.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Making a loan is a sunk cost.
Forgiving the loan means you will not get income from that cost.

But that means you don't have the income you expected. You can't spend as much on other things as you intended. You're pulling the standard leftist handwave of pretending something sufficiently dispersed ceases to exist.

Currency issuing governments don't need income in order to spend. It's the other way about.

It's going to show up as increased interest payments then.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Right, but a decrease to federal income doesn't necessarily mean, as Loren put it, "less money to spend on other things." The government can still spend what they need to, and there are several ways to manage the effects of that spending.

The standard leftist delusion that there is always enough money to do anything they feel should be done.

 

[bilby]

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.

Then they should stop trying to impose their lifestyle on others, and start living a little.

Needless sacrifice isn't noble, it's stupid. And complaining when others choose not to be stupid, because you suffered and therefore they should too, is being a selfish cunt.

Society is about people helping each other. If you opt out, that's your stupid choice - but not an excuse to insist that others should do the same.

You have it backwards--they keep being asked to bail out the ones who lived irresponsibility. Live with the consequences of your irresponsibility, don't ask us to bail you out!

How is anyone harmed by forgiving student debt?

The debt doesn't just disappear. It's going to be paid by the taxpayers.

No, it was already paid by the taxpayers. They're just no longer anticipating getting their money back.

Calling it 7 days rather than a week doesn't change the situation.

It's going to come out of taxpayer's pockets.

No, nothing is going to come out of the taxpayers' pockets.

The money was spent, in the past. It came out of the taxpayers' pockets then. It's a sunk cost.

Loan repayments to the federal government are themselves a form of taxation. Forgiveness is a tax cut.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Calling it 7 days rather than a week doesn't change the situation.

It's going to come out of taxpayer's pockets.

No, nothing is going to come out of the taxpayers' pockets.

The money was spent, in the past. It came out of the taxpayers' pockets then. It's a sunk cost.

Loan repayments to the federal government are themselves a form of taxation. Forgiveness is a tax cut.

It's going to come out of future taxpayers pockets.