Biden and Bolton BOTH should have to testify.

[Lumpenproletariat]

Also Giuliani, and others.


Both sides, Reds and Blues, are liars -- both Trumpsters and Trump-haters. Both want to cover up the truth and prevent witnesses who would hurt their side in the impeachment proceedings.

Anyone honest wants ALL witnesses to testify, be subpoenaed if necessary, no matter which side is hurt -- and all testimony heard, including that relating to the Biden corruption.

If the Bidens were forced to testify, and also the Republicans who directly heard Trump speak his quid-pro-quo, then it's likely both Trump and Biden would be proved guilty. I.e.,

Trump guilty of abusing his office, as charged -- Biden guilty of influence-peddling.​

Even if influence-peddling is not officially a criminal violation and no criminal prosecution is possible, still this abuse of office is a relevant part of the impeachment case and should be exposed and condemned rather than swept aside or covered up to prevent embarrassment to Biden. His quid-pro-quo to have a Ukrainian investigator fired, serving his personal benefit, is an abuse of the Vice Presidential office similar to Trump's quid-pro-quo (even if it's not "the same").

It's appropriate for ALL corruption on either side to be exposed. It is proper for any abuses of power or violations related to the case to be exposed, even though not officially being prosecuted.

I.e., in a legal case it is appropriate to expose related criminals or wrong-doers (the Bidens) other than the one being prosecuted (Trump), and the ones exposed then made subject to the appropriate legal actions against them, even if it's only investigation on suspicion of a criminal act.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Learn your Constitution!

This isn't a Biden-Trump trial. It's a Constitutional impeachment trial where Trump has to defend himself. Therefore, Biden doesn't NECESSARILY have to be a witness even if he or his son or the combination of the two are guilty of some kind of corruption. Twitler used his office and taxpayer funds to go after a political opponent, regardless of guilty, which is at minimum a conflict of interest but since it involves way more, it's worse--bribery and treason against democracy itself.

Now supposing that Bidens are reasonably guilty of something, then they have a different legal process for discovering this. Such evidence needs to comply with the 4th amendment inasmuch as it applies to national boundaries and persons. That means investigators write up subpoenas involving probable cause for items/documents that are specified and the right people are informed so that the Biden(s) can defend themselves in a court of law later. That court of law has a DIFFERENT set of procedures than a Presidential impeachment trial.

End of Story!

 

[Keith&Co.]

It's a Constitutional impeachment trial where Trump has to defend himself.

And we can't forget, what he's to defend himself about is Inappropriately using his office, and government resources, to make political difficulties for a political rival.
Having either Biden testify would be an inappropriate use of the Impeachment trial to make political difficulty for his political rival.

I'd really like to think this was all some genius performance art. I mean, he did it. Then he did it on national television. Then he wants to do it again, on National TV, as part of the trial for doing it...

Maybe we should let him do it just to see where this goes? How does he top this? Does he pardon himself for doing it three fucking times? While insisting there was nothing wrong with doing it? Make it a campaign promise, 'if re-elected I will demand Japan, Somalia, Lichtenstein, and Mexico investigate Biden...'

 

[Bronzeage]

Also Giuliani, and others.


Both sides, Reds and Blues, are liars -- both Trumpsters and Trump-haters. Both want to cover up the truth and prevent witnesses who would hurt their side in the impeachment proceedings.

Anyone honest wants ALL witnesses to testify, be subpoenaed if necessary, no matter which side is hurt -- and all testimony heard, including that relating to the Biden corruption.

If the Bidens were forced to testify, and also the Republicans who directly heard Trump speak his quid-pro-quo, then it's likely both Trump and Biden would be proved guilty. I.e.,

Trump guilty of abusing his office, as charged -- Biden guilty of influence-peddling.​

<snip>.

The Biden testimony demand is a bluff. It is a desperate attempt to muddy the waters. The President now has an Attorney General who will do his bidding. It's a simple matter for AG Barr to launch an investigation and convene a Grand Jury to investigate both Joe and Hunter Biden, if he thought there were any grounds. This is just the investigation. It doesn't have to lead anywhere, or reveal wrong doing. GOP led investigations never do. It just has to keep people distracted and rationalize the remaining support for an incompetent President.

Barr hasn't done this and there is one simple reason. President Trump has exhausted his supply of people willing to face prison on his behalf. There is no one left willing to perjure themselves to protect him from his own actions.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Why would Biden have to testify? He doesn't actually have anything to do with this outside of Russian propaganda.

I get that you've all sold your country to Putin, but maybe try and be a little discreet about it?

 

[SimpleDon]

It is telling that Trump didn't want an investigation of Hunter Biden, he only wanted a public announcement of the opening of an investigation on American TV. Typically there is no public announcement of an investigation, so what he wanted would be unusual.

My guess is that Trump wanted the barest excuse to be able to yell "Lock him up" at every rally he holds, a really fine point for a man who has told more than 14,000 lies since he has been in office, his supporters are well past demanding the truth from him at this point.

 

[Patooka]

Also Giuliani, and others.Both sides, Reds and Blues, are liars -- both Trumpsters and Trump-haters. Both want to cover up the truth and prevent witnesses who would hurt their side in the impeachment proceedings..

Umm...what lies have the Democrats been spreading about Trump?

 

[Gun Nut]

To any question asked of Biden from his lawyer, "Objection. Relevance. Client has no knowledge of the facts surrounding the charges of Obstruction or Abuse of Power".

If you would like Biden to answer questions about something in a criminal trial, you will have to find a criminal charge that has anything to do with his actions.

I'd be interested to know what questions you would ask either of the Bidens that has relevance to the Articles of Impeachment.

 

[Bronzeage]

The bizarre thing about this thread is it proposes that the removal of Trump from office is acceptable if a comparable Democrat's career is destroyed at the same time.

Has GOP political philosophy come to the point that anything that weakens a Democrat is good, no matter what damage it does to their side?

Or is it just a kamikaze tactic to inflict as much damage possible before inevitable defeat?

 

[Gun Nut]

The bizarre thing about this thread is it proposes that the removal of Trump from office is acceptable if a comparable Democrat's career is destroyed at the same time.

Has GOP political philosophy come to the point that anything that weakens a Democrat is good, no matter what damage it does to their side?

Or is it just a kamikaze tactic to inflict as much damage possible before inevitable defeat?

It's an attempt to get the Dems to back off on the idea of calling witnesses in a trial where a Republican stands to lose. That have to try SOMETHING to get out of the mess they created in some way other than the complete annihilation of their party.

 

[ZiprHead]

It's the two wrongs make a right defence.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Biden isn't accused of breaking a specific law. Meanwhile Trump's goons were apparently targeting and surveilling a US Ambassador (referencing security in a message)... an American citizen, which is against the law. Apparently trying to get her fired wasn't enough!

And Trump covered it up via obstruction. This is arguably worse than the whole Biden angle. Which, too, has been argued by the GAO as being a crime... at least the whole withholding of Congressionally appropriated funds... as was the Pentagon's fear.

Witnesses? Trump should be resigning as we speak. We could save the witnesses for the trials of Giuliani, Hyde, Parnas, etc...

 

[Toni]

Biden isn't accused of breaking a specific law. Meanwhile Trump's goons were apparently targeting and surveilling a US Ambassador (referencing security in a message)... an American citizen, which is against the law. Apparently trying to get her fired wasn't enough!

And Trump covered it up via obstruction. This is arguably worse than the whole Biden angle. Which, too, has been argued by the GAO as being a crime... at least the whole withholding of Congressionally appropriated funds... as was the Pentagon's fear.

Witnesses? Trump should be resigning as we speak. We could save the witnesses for the trials of Giuliani, Hyde, Parnas, etc...

Well, of course he should be resigning if he had a shred of decency or rational fear but why should he when he knows that McConnell will protect him no matter what--and Graham and Nunes right along with him.

 

[Bronzeage]

The bizarre thing about this thread is it proposes that the removal of Trump from office is acceptable if a comparable Democrat's career is destroyed at the same time.

Has GOP political philosophy come to the point that anything that weakens a Democrat is good, no matter what damage it does to their side?

Or is it just a kamikaze tactic to inflict as much damage possible before inevitable defeat?

It's an attempt to get the Dems to back off on the idea of calling witnesses in a trial where a Republican stands to lose. That have to try SOMETHING to get out of the mess they created in some way other than the complete annihilation of their party.

That's obvious, but the OP concedes that Trump has committed impeachable offenses, but in order to actually impeach the President, insists that the Democrats concede that Joe Biden did something bad.

If they've already conceded that impeachment is justified, what's the point of spearing Biden? Is just vindictiveness, the kind of animosity that pursued Hillary for the past 20 years?

The push for calling Biden et al to testify before the Senate is a bluff, and a very pathetic bluff, at that. Any attorney worth his retainer knows to never ask a question if you don't know how the witness is going to answer. This is why depositions are taken under oath. The last thing Trump's lawyers want to happen is have the Impeachment trial turn into an investigation into Giuliani's schemes in Ukraine and expose Trump's conspiracy to destroy Ambassador Yanovich's reputation and career. The motives for that have not been made clear.

It would be funny to discover that Giuliani had used Trump's gullibility and poor understanding of foreign policy, for his own financial gain. Trump is manipulated to coerce a foreign government to interfere in our next election, so Giuliani and his pals can make some money. That's the story that the Trump team so not want heard.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

Also Giuliani, and others.


Both sides, Reds and Blues, are liars -- both Trumpsters and Trump-haters. Both want to cover up the truth and prevent witnesses who would hurt their side in the impeachment proceedings.

Anyone honest wants ALL witnesses to testify, be subpoenaed if necessary, no matter which side is hurt -- and all testimony heard, including that relating to the Biden corruption.

If the Bidens were forced to testify, and also the Republicans who directly heard Trump speak his quid-pro-quo, then it's likely both Trump and Biden would be proved guilty. I.e.,

Trump guilty of abusing his office, as charged -- Biden guilty of influence-peddling.​

Even if influence-peddling is not officially a criminal violation and no criminal prosecution is possible, still this abuse of office is a relevant part of the impeachment case and should be exposed and condemned rather than swept aside or covered up to prevent embarrassment to Biden. His quid-pro-quo to have a Ukrainian investigator fired, serving his personal benefit, is an abuse of the Vice Presidential office similar to Trump's quid-pro-quo (even if it's not "the same").

It's appropriate for ALL corruption on either side to be exposed. It is proper for any abuses of power or violations related to the case to be exposed, even though not officially being prosecuted.

I.e., in a legal case it is appropriate to expose related criminals or wrong-doers (the Bidens) other than the one being prosecuted (Trump), and the ones exposed then made subject to the appropriate legal actions against them, even if it's only investigation on suspicion of a criminal act.

If there were even a shred of evidence that Biden had broken any law, Trump's in-house toady (aka "Attorney General" William Barr) would have set a speed record with the indictment.

Take your "what about" diversion and shove it.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Trump's head is full of conspiracy garbage, always has been -- Birtherism, the Cruz/JFK nonsense, the New Jersey Muslims dancing in the streets on 9/11, the bullshit about Gen. Pershing, the Deep State and the 'many, many criminal acts and acts of treason'....if he believes all the shit he spews, he's dangerously unbalanced and should be removed from office. If (more likely) he doesn't believe it, doesn't care if it's true, just wants to stir up controversy and excite the Yahoos, then he's a totally corrupt, pathological liar and has disgraced his office and the country. Why should anyone cater to the man's fantasies and/or deceptions?

 

[jab]

I agree--also think that that Trump, like Clinton, should be deposed, and that Jared and Ivanka should be subpoened.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I agree--also think that that Trump, like Clinton, should be deposed, and that Jared and Ivanka should be subpoened.

Or give Donald Junior a microphone and tell him Hillary's being impeached. See what comes out.

 

[ZiprHead]

I think these people that talk about Joe Biden doing wrong/illegal things in Ukraine fundamentally have no idea what they are talking about.

Biden's call to have the prosecutor removed was the Obama administration's official position. Biden was communicating that position. Congressional Republicans agreed with that position. The European Union took the same position as did the World Monetary fund.

Biden wasn't protecting his son. As a matter of fact, replacing the prosecutor could have put his son in jeopardy. The reason everyone wanted the prosecutor gone was because he wasn't investigating and prosecuting corrupt organizations. He wouldn't even investigate the Maidan massacre.

If Ukraine wanted to clean up its act and join the rest of the world, they needed to address corruption.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I agree--also think that that Trump, like Clinton, should be deposed, and that Jared and Ivanka should be subpoened.

Or give Donald Junior a microphone and tell him Hillary's being impeached. See what comes out.

Someone should ask if Don Jr supports the new criminal investigation (into the reported illegal surveilling of the US Ambassador to Ukraine) launched in Ukraine.