Bipartisan fascists go after Backpage et al

[Loren Pechtel]

No, over-regulated implies an abundance of regulation. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's too much. I agree with you about what it's for, but it would take a lot of it to ensure that.

"Over" prefix means too much unless it litteraly refers to location relationship as in "overcoat". It never means "abundant but not too much". How about we settle on "well-regulated"?

Doesn't have to be literal. For example, "overlord". That's about authority, not location. There's also "oversight". "Overthrow" normally doesn't mean to throw too much.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

First of all, where would a prostitute acquire HIV? From either sharing needles or from sex, almost certainly with a male. Where would a customer get HIV? Needles or sex.

Of course anyprostiture with an activeSTI should be excluded from sex work until cured. With HIV, that’s permanently excluded. And then what does she do?how does she make a living? How does she pay for that very expensive, very unpleasant regime of antiretrovirals? Have you ever known anyone on them? I have: it’s not fun. Beats death but not fun.

All jobs have a certain amount of risk. Note that the HIV rate in the legal brothels in Nevada is zero. (Beware of some deceptive data to the contrary that's floating around out there--HIV cases have been caught in pre-employment testing.) Condoms + not having other STDs greatly reduces the HIV risk.

Legalized prostitution increases the risks that vulnerable people, often too young to be legal, are forced into that life.

Does it? Or does it merely reroute where it takes place?

It seems to increase illegal sex trade.

In any regime with a reasonable licensing system how are underage girls going to get a license?? The expected result is a lowering of underage prostitution.

And an idea comes to mind to combat trafficking: How about raising the age limit for non-citizens? That would make it very hard for pimps to get their trafficked women into the legal path and if you can put almost all the bad apples in a small segment of the market it's going to be much easier to catch them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wait, so you’re saying that if a prostitute gets an STI, she should continue having sex with customers?

Regardless of how she got it, that’s not something she should be doing.

Nah she's saying that the people most for legalized prostitution aren't particularly interested in the well being of the prostitutes. Sort of how stoners like to justify the legalization of pot by pointing out all the people it helps when by and large their motivations are far less noble and more self-centered than they let on.

I'm for the legalization or available-by-prescription-to-addicts for all recreational drugs. I'm no stoner, though. I have no desire to use any of them, I have a desire to live in the safer society that would result from such a change.

Do you think there'd be any kind of safety net for prostitutes who contract diseases due to the nature of their work put into place if we legalized prostitution? Because I very much doubt it. Also good luck getting health insurance if you're a prostitute, that shit has hazardous/life threatening work written all over it.

A STI is an occupational injury and should be treated as such.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Source: https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=41053

I think the creepiest thing out of all of this is the environment he describes. Seems in some places the women are treated like chattel.

Isn't that just PEACHY?

You realize that your link is an objection to abuses by one person coupled with the state not acting against a near monopoly forming?

 

[LordKiran]

Source: https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=41053

I think the creepiest thing out of all of this is the environment he describes. Seems in some places the women are treated like chattel.

Isn't that just PEACHY?

You realize that your link is an objection to abuses by one person coupled with the state not acting against a near monopoly forming?

I do realize that. Do you realize the fact that the state isn't stepping in gives credence to my point that we have zero reason to think legalization wouldn't lead directly to abuse and a lack of government oversight?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Source: https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=41053

I think the creepiest thing out of all of this is the environment he describes. Seems in some places the women are treated like chattel.

Isn't that just PEACHY?

You realize that your link is an objection to abuses by one person coupled with the state not acting against a near monopoly forming?

I do realize that. Do you realize the fact that the state isn't stepping in gives credence to my point that we have zero reason to think legalization wouldn't lead directly to abuse and a lack of government oversight?

Criminalization is necessarily no oversight. Why not make the attempt?

 

[LordKiran]

I do realize that. Do you realize the fact that the state isn't stepping in gives credence to my point that we have zero reason to think legalization wouldn't lead directly to abuse and a lack of government oversight?

Criminalization is necessarily no oversight. Why not make the attempt?

Sure there is oversight, in that it is prohibited and systematically destroyed whenever and wherever found.

 

[bilby]

I do realize that. Do you realize the fact that the state isn't stepping in gives credence to my point that we have zero reason to think legalization wouldn't lead directly to abuse and a lack of government oversight?

Criminalization is necessarily no oversight. Why not make the attempt?

Sure there is oversight, in that it is prohibited and systematically destroyed whenever and wherever found.

Ahh. That explains why it doesn't happen at all in the US (apart from parts of Nevada).

 

[LordKiran]

Sure there is oversight, in that it is prohibited and systematically destroyed whenever and wherever found.

Ahh. That explains why it doesn't happen at all in the US (apart from parts of Nevada).

Hey I don't expect perfection, why should you?

 

[laughing dog]

The claim that legal prostitution reduces human trafficking is not as strong as some proponents portray. A 2012 study found (among other things)

The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.
Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.
The type of legalization of prostitution does not matter — it only matters whether prostitution is legal or not. Whether third-party involvement (persons who facilitate the prostitution businesses, i.e, “pimps”) is allowed or not does not have an effect on human trafficking inflows into a country. Legalization of prostitution itself is more important in explaining human trafficking than the type of legalization.

(source (https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/ for a summary and https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065 is a link to a downloadable copy of the study).

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The claim that legal prostitution reduces human trafficking is not as strong as some proponents portray. A 2012 study found (among other things)

This study and its flaws in methods and conclusions were already discussed upthread.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Just read an article in my local newspaper reporting that escort agencies have seen a notable increase in the number of escorts on their listings and adds. So if your concern was pumping.... There appears to be more of it now, not less.

 

[laughing dog]

The claim that legal prostitution reduces human trafficking is not as strong as some proponents portray. A 2012 study found (among other things)

This study and its flaws in methods and conclusions were already discussed upthread.

Every study has flaws. The actual point that you are missing is that your claims are not as strong as you insist, because if they were, the evidence would be more clear cut.

 

[LordKiran]

Just read an article in my local newspaper reporting that escort agencies have seen a notable increase in the number of escorts on their listings and adds. So if your concern was pumping.... There appears to be more of it now, not less.

I'm sorry but how does an article discussing the escort industry expanding at all imply that pimps are not also expanding?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Just read an article in my local newspaper reporting that escort agencies have seen a notable increase in the number of escorts on their listings and adds. So if your concern was pumping.... There appears to be more of it now, not less.

I'm sorry but how does an article discussing the escort industry expanding at all imply that pimps are not also expanding?

I think yo may have misread what I wrote or I didn't write it clearly. I mean that there are more women working for escort services (pimps), which may be because they no longer have a way to do it on their own or with each other in small groups (which was the predominant way here before). Having a pimp who can still advertise online and in other places is usually safer than walking the streets.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The claim that legal prostitution reduces human trafficking is not as strong as some proponents portray. A 2012 study found (among other things)

This study and its flaws in methods and conclusions were already discussed upthread.

From a peer reviewed source?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Just read an article in my local newspaper reporting that escort agencies have seen a notable increase in the number of escorts on their listings and adds. So if your concern was pumping.... There appears to be more of it now, not less.

I'm sorry but how does an article discussing the escort industry expanding at all imply that pimps are not also expanding?

I just noticed my own typo here. I understand your confusion now lol! I meant to write pimping and not pumping.

- - - Updated - - -

The claim that legal prostitution reduces human trafficking is not as strong as some proponents portray. A 2012 study found (among other things)

This study and its flaws in methods and conclusions were already discussed upthread.

From a peer reviewed source?

What from a peer reviewed source? That there are flaws in the assumptions and measures? Does that matter? Do the criticisms not stand on their own regardless of who points them out? But actually yes, and also from a US government source too.

 

[Toni]

All jobs have a certain amount of risk. Note that the HIV rate in the legal brothels in Nevada is zero. (Beware of some deceptive data to the contrary that's floating around out there--HIV cases have been caught in pre-employment testing.) Condoms + not having other STDs greatly reduces the HIV risk.

Legalized prostitution increases the risks that vulnerable people, often too young to be legal, are forced into that life.

Does it? Or does it merely reroute where it takes place?

It seems to increase illegal sex trade.

In any regime with a reasonable licensing system how are underage girls going to get a license?? The expected result is a lowering of underage prostitution.

And an idea comes to mind to combat trafficking: How about raising the age limit for non-citizens? That would make it very hard for pimps to get their trafficked women into the legal path and if you can put almost all the bad apples in a small segment of the market it's going to be much easier to catch them.

I think you do not understand what illicit means.


Legal prostitution seems to increase the amount of sex trafficking because it normalizes the idea that sex is a commodity that can be purchased and because it increases demand. Despite what proponents of legal sex work seem to believe, there are insufficient willing sex workers to meet demand, in this country and in any other country. This gap in numbers between demand for sex workers and supply of willing sex workers exists whether sex work is legal or illegal. Numerous sources indicate that the gap increases--more girls and women are trafficked when sex work is illegal.

Under current US federal law, a person under the age of 18 cannot be said to legally consent to sex work until they are 18 years of age. This is consistent with the age at which someone can legally vote or enlist in the military or marry without parental consent or sign a contract or obtain a loan or auto insurance independently of a parent's consent. You cannot get a tattoo or piercing, open a bank account independent of a parent, donate blood or plasma, purchase tobacco products or pornography, and a host of other things. In most places one cannot legally purchase alcohol until reaching the age of 21. Now in some places, the age at which one can purchase some types of firearms has increased to 21.

What morally acceptable reason to decrease the age of consent for prostitution below 18 years of age can there possibly be?.

 

[laughing dog]

What from a peer reviewed source? That there are flaws in the assumptions and measures? Does that matter?

It lends more credibility to the criticism if it has been vetted.

Do the criticisms not stand on their own regardless of who points them out? But actually yes, and also from a US government source too.

Anyone can quibble over assumptions and measures in any study. You have yet to actually address the point that such a study (and others) indicates the proclaimed benefits of legalizing prostitution clearly not as significant or obvious otherwise these types of "flawed" studies would not come to the opposite conclusion of the "flawless" studies.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It lends more credibility to the criticism if it has been vetted.

Not if the criticism doesn't require new data or sophisticated data analysis, which much of this doesn't.

Anyone can quibble over assumptions and measures in any study. You have yet to actually address the point that such a study (and others) indicates the proclaimed benefits of legalizing prostitution clearly not as significant or obvious otherwise these types of "flawed" studies would not come to the opposite conclusion of the "flawless" studies.

The study you point to doesn't address most of the benefits that have been suggested for legalization. It only addresses the reported numbers of human trafficking (rather than sex trafficking specifically) victims, without accounting for visibility etc. It doesn't touch at all on rapes, murders, and other dangers prohibition exposes sex workers to or the puritan control over what women can do with their bodies.