• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Bipartisan fascists go after Backpage et al

Exactly how good is the money if one must turn 3,583.3 tricks/year-or almost 10 a day-- to earn those 'big bucks?'

Even at average of $30 a pop (bottom of the market) that volume of work would earn you six figures. Note of course that most hookers charge significantly more than that, and thus can see fewer clients per day.
And note that say a cashier at Walmart or even somebody educated like a social worker or an adjunct lecturer earns several times less than $100k.

A sex worker charging an average of $120 (still pretty low considering many escorts charge more than $300/hr) needs only 500 clients a year to make $60k which is roughly the median household income in the US. And 500/year is only a little more than one a day.

I really don't know where you get your numbers.
 
Who are those people? How does their error in any way undermine my reasoned arguments for a legalised and regulated sexual services industry?

Why, in short, should I or anyone else care about this red herring?

- - - Updated - - -

You have presented a good argument but it does not address Toni's (and my) point - Why is it that no one has pointed out that men without the requisite abilities can turn to prostitution? That question is independent of the merits of legalizing prostitution. I believe the point of the question is try to induce some serious introspection on the part of some of the vociferous kneejerk ideologues of legalizing prostitution. For example, I have never seen a post where someone seriously suggested a man become a prostitute in order to pay for higher education, yet someone has seriously suggested a woman become a prostitute in order to pay for higher education in this thread. Yes, it is possible that was simply careless and unthinking usage, but it is just as possible that it was not unthinking and sexist (or misogynist).

Her point is a very good one, and it merits serious consideration, not the infantile and sophomoric reactions from the usual suspects.

It's not a good point.

It's not really a point at all - unless you are desperate to have people understand how poor your extrapolation skills are.

If a person is able to fund their studies more easily through prostitution than through any other employment situation, then they should have that option.

Their gender doesn't change that one iota.

Bilby, you're an intelligent, well educated man with decent reasoning skills. So it seems to me that you are missing the point I was trying to make quite deliberately. I wondered why people only talk about prostitution as an opportunity for women. It never comes up as an opportunity for men.

As for people needing to prostitute themselves in order to be able to afford college, that seems like a very barbaric system to me. I always thought better of Australia than that.

Nobody needs to.

That's not a reason for nobody to be allowed to.

Bilby, actually there are a lot of people who do need to in order to survive. Teenage runaways for example. Trafficked individuals who are forced.

As I've said multiple times in this thread and other similar ones, I honestly assumed that legalization would reduce trafficking of unwilling prostitutes, but apparently, that is not what happens. THAT is the reason I am against legalization: increased trafficking of unwilling sex workers.
 
Exactly how good is the money if one must turn 3,583.3 tricks/year-or almost 10 a day-- to earn those 'big bucks?'

Even at average of $30 a pop (bottom of the market) that volume of work would earn you six figures. Note of course that most hookers charge significantly more than that, and thus can see fewer clients per day.
And note that say a cashier at Walmart or even somebody educated like a social worker or an adjunct lecturer earns several times less than $100k.

A sex worker charging an average of $120 needs only 500 clients a year to make $60k which is roughly the median household income in the US. And 500/year is only a little more than one a day.

Derec, I was responding specifically to Jolly's assertion that prostitution is a very lucrative business (for prostitutes. It IS very lucrative but not necessarily for the ones doing the sex work).

I linked the stats I found which I think are the same as ones that JP was referring to elsewhere in this thread.

According to that link, the average earnings of a prostitute was $215,000/year and the average price of a trick is $60. That means almost 10 tricks/day every day of the year.
 
Bilby, actually there are a lot of people who do need to in order to survive. Teenage runaways for example. Trafficked individuals who are forced.
And how does persecuting consenting adults help them? Hell, even underage/forced hookers are worse off if the sex trade is pushed further underground.

As I've said multiple times in this thread and other similar ones, I honestly assumed that legalization would reduce trafficking of unwilling prostitutes, but apparently, that is not what happens. THAT is the reason I am against legalization: increased trafficking of unwilling sex workers.
But the studies claiming that are really shoddy, for example by conflating migration with trafficking of unwilling victims.
 
Who are those people? How does their error in any way undermine my reasoned arguments for a legalised and regulated sexual services industry?

Why, in short, should I or anyone else care about this red herring?

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a good point.

It's not really a point at all - unless you are desperate to have people understand how poor your extrapolation skills are.

If a person is able to fund their studies more easily through prostitution than through any other employment situation, then they should have that option.

Their gender doesn't change that one iota.

Bilby, you're an intelligent, well educated man with decent reasoning skills. So it seems to me that you are missing the point I was trying to make quite deliberately. I wondered why people only talk about prostitution as an opportunity for women. It never comes up as an opportunity for men.

As for people needing to prostitute themselves in order to be able to afford college, that seems like a very barbaric system to me. I always thought better of Australia than that.

Nobody needs to.

That's not a reason for nobody to be allowed to.

Bilby, actually there are a lot of people who do need to in order to survive. Teenage runaways for example. Trafficked individuals who are forced.

As I've said multiple times in this thread and other similar ones, I honestly assumed that legalization would reduce trafficking of unwilling prostitutes, but apparently, that is not what happens. THAT is the reason I am against legalization: increased trafficking of unwilling sex workers.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

There's nobody in Australia who has to become a prostitute in order to afford an education. That was the scenario you introduced, and to which I responded. To then jump to a discussion of poverty presumably in a different country, and certainly in a different demographic, where sex work is illegal and/or necessary for survival, is not conducive to reasoned discussion.

Don't strain yourself when shifting those goalposts.
 
Derec, I was responding specifically to Jolly's assertion that prostitution is a very lucrative business (for prostitutes. It IS very lucrative but not necessarily for the ones doing the sex work).
It is for many sex workers. If you are an independent escort charging $300/hr you only need to work an hour a day to make $100k. Ok, with expenses you may need to work hour and a half per average day, maybe 500 hours per year. Still a far cry from working 2000 hours (roughly full time) for far less money.

And many sex workers are independent, and sites like Craigslist and BP enabled such independence.

According to that link, the average earnings of a prostitute was $215,000/year and the average price of a trick is $60. That means almost 10 tricks/day every day of the year.
Maybe they are mixing up averages. For example, if the earnings are the mean and price of a session median, that would explain some of the discrepancy. Also, I doubt even the median is $60. Note also that not all sex work is full service. Some workers only ever provide hand relief or blowjobs, or may offer different services at different price points. You know, like any regular service provider. So that $60 median, if true, is certainly not just for "full service".

And just like anything else, how much you work determines the income. Sure, a sex worker charging $300/hr might work only 500 hours a year for $100k, but she might prefer 1000 hours and an early retirement but socking the extra $100k away.
The bigger point is, why should somebody like that be automatically be considered a victim? Why should we pass legislation that makes their work far less safe? Why should somebody hiring them be considered a criminal? The whole Prohibitionist ideology makes zero sense to me.

Also, what link was that?
 
Exactly how good is the money if one must turn 3,583.3 tricks/year-or almost 10 a day-- to earn those 'big bucks?'

Even at average of $30 a pop (bottom of the market) that volume of work would earn you six figures. Note of course that most hookers charge significantly more than that, and thus can see fewer clients per day.
And note that say a cashier at Walmart or even somebody educated like a social worker or an adjunct lecturer earns several times less than $100k.

A sex worker charging an average of $120 needs only 500 clients a year to make $60k which is roughly the median household income in the US. And 500/year is only a little more than one a day.

Derec, I was responding specifically to Jolly's assertion that prostitution is a very lucrative business (for prostitutes. It IS very lucrative but not necessarily for the ones doing the sex work).

I linked the stats I found which I think are the same as ones that JP was referring to elsewhere in this thread.

According to that link, the average earnings of a prostitute was $215,000/year and the average price of a trick is $60. That means almost 10 tricks/day every day of the year.

According to your source (Bolding Added):

Average annual income of a U.S. prostitute: $215,000
Number of countries that prostitution is completely legal and regulated: 22
Thailand has the largest sex industry: $37,000,000,000
...
Average price per trick: $60

Note the lack of specification of U.S. for the latter figure. It would be rather surprising if the average price per trick in the U.S. isn't higher than the overall average world-wide due to the differential in cost of living expenses between the U.S. and, say, Thailand.

As such, your ratio likely over-estimates the number of tricks a given prostitute in the U.S. would need to do to get the average income specified.
 
How much money were the pimps using BackPage versus the children they were selling making?
 
How much money were the pimps using BackPage versus the children they were selling making?

Well, it's after April 15th so it should be easy to find this out, since I assume they all kept proper accounting records and submitted their tax forms with all of this income declared.
 
Who are those people? How does their error in any way undermine my reasoned arguments for a legalised and regulated sexual services industry?

Why, in short, should I or anyone else care about this red herring?

- - - Updated - - -

Bilby, you're an intelligent, well educated man with decent reasoning skills. So it seems to me that you are missing the point I was trying to make quite deliberately. I wondered why people only talk about prostitution as an opportunity for women. It never comes up as an opportunity for men.

As for people needing to prostitute themselves in order to be able to afford college, that seems like a very barbaric system to me. I always thought better of Australia than that.

Nobody needs to.

That's not a reason for nobody to be allowed to.

Bilby, actually there are a lot of people who do need to in order to survive. Teenage runaways for example. Trafficked individuals who are forced.

As I've said multiple times in this thread and other similar ones, I honestly assumed that legalization would reduce trafficking of unwilling prostitutes, but apparently, that is not what happens. THAT is the reason I am against legalization: increased trafficking of unwilling sex workers.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

There's nobody in Australia who has to become a prostitute in order to afford an education. That was the scenario you introduced, and to which I responded. To then jump to a discussion of poverty presumably in a different country, and certainly in a different demographic, where sex work is illegal and/or necessary for survival, is not conducive to reasoned discussion.

Don't strain yourself when shifting those goalposts.

I was responding to your post about people--well, women, putting themselves through college by prostituting themselves. I assumed you meant Australia since that would be a system you are actually familiar with.

I'm pretty sure I didn't introduce that idea. I know it's a pretty common fantasy for men who like to think well of themselves.
 
Last edited:
Derec, I was responding specifically to Jolly's assertion that prostitution is a very lucrative business (for prostitutes. It IS very lucrative but not necessarily for the ones doing the sex work).
It is for many sex workers. If you are an independent escort charging $300/hr you only need to work an hour a day to make $100k. Ok, with expenses you may need to work hour and a half per average day, maybe 500 hours per year. Still a far cry from working 2000 hours (roughly full time) for far less money.

And many sex workers are independent, and sites like Craigslist and BP enabled such independence.

According to that link, the average earnings of a prostitute was $215,000/year and the average price of a trick is $60. That means almost 10 tricks/day every day of the year.
Maybe they are mixing up averages. For example, if the earnings are the mean and price of a session median, that would explain some of the discrepancy. Also, I doubt even the median is $60. Note also that not all sex work is full service. Some workers only ever provide hand relief or blowjobs, or may offer different services at different price points. You know, like any regular service provider. So that $60 median, if true, is certainly not just for "full service".

And just like anything else, how much you work determines the income. Sure, a sex worker charging $300/hr might work only 500 hours a year for $100k, but she might prefer 1000 hours and an early retirement but socking the extra $100k away.
The bigger point is, why should somebody like that be automatically be considered a victim? Why should we pass legislation that makes their work far less safe? Why should somebody hiring them be considered a criminal? The whole Prohibitionist ideology makes zero sense to me.

Also, what link was that?

Hey, I was only using the info on the link I provided. Frankly, I have serious doubts about the $215K per year. No methodology is given so I can't comment. I presented the link the first time so I assumed everybody who was interested would actually perform their own due diligence. My bad.

Here's the link: https://www.statisticbrain.com/prostitution-statistics/

BTW, the estimate of the percentage of prostitutes who were abused as children is the lowest I've seen. Usually the percentage is estimated at 90-95%.

Other tidbits: number of times a prostitute has unprotected sex/year: 250.
Average age a female prostitute becomes a prostitute: 15.

Frankly, I doubt that the majority of sex workers charge $300/client/session. I'd wager that $60 is closer to the mark for most of them.

Since you are being all accountant and all, you also need to consider the expenses that go into maintaining a prostitute in condition fit to work.
 
Derec, I was responding specifically to Jolly's assertion that prostitution is a very lucrative business (for prostitutes. It IS very lucrative but not necessarily for the ones doing the sex work).

I linked the stats I found which I think are the same as ones that JP was referring to elsewhere in this thread.

According to that link, the average earnings of a prostitute was $215,000/year and the average price of a trick is $60. That means almost 10 tricks/day every day of the year.

According to your source (Bolding Added):

Average annual income of a U.S. prostitute: $215,000
Number of countries that prostitution is completely legal and regulated: 22
Thailand has the largest sex industry: $37,000,000,000
...
Average price per trick: $60

Note the lack of specification of U.S. for the latter figure. It would be rather surprising if the average price per trick in the U.S. isn't higher than the overall average world-wide due to the differential in cost of living expenses between the U.S. and, say, Thailand.

As such, your ratio likely over-estimates the number of tricks a given prostitute in the U.S. would need to do to get the average income specified.

All the stats seem to be US based with Thailand and countries where prostitution is completely legal being offered as comparisons.

I don't find the stats that credible myself. I seriously doubt that the AVERAGE income of a prostitute in the US is $215K. But say a prostitute earning $215K/year charges $300/session (taken from Derec's post), then she (and let's be honest here: suggesting it's he gives everyone else the willies) would have to perform 715 sessions/year, or about 2 a day. Every day of the year. That's not terribly likely. So, say she works 200 nights a year (more reasonable)--she would have to perform 3.58 tricks at $300 per trick each night she worked.

- - - Updated - - -

How much money were the pimps using BackPage versus the children they were selling making?

Well, it's after April 15th so it should be easy to find this out, since I assume they all kept proper accounting records and submitted their tax forms with all of this income declared.

That's about as likely as having no underage or trafficked sex workers in Canada or any other country with legalized prostitution. So get off it.

- - - Updated - - -

How much money were the pimps using BackPage versus the children they were selling making?

All of it.
 
How much money were the pimps using BackPage versus the children they were selling making?

Well, it's after April 15th so it should be easy to find this out, since I assume they all kept proper accounting records and submitted their tax forms with all of this income declared.

They laundered the money, Tom, which is reason#3 they are in trouble. Reason#1 is the child sex trafficking and Reason#2 is being involved in illegal activity. I know that Derec has a problem with the fact that prostitution in the US is illegal but it just is (for now?). And I know Derec will continue to engage in illegal activity that he thinks is unfair and continue to advocate that he and BackPage shouldn't get into trouble. But they should be in trouble, both of them actually.

See post#299:
Don2 (Don1 Revised said:
The problem as I see it has to do with RULE OF LAW (or simply following the law). So in a dictatorship, following the law is something citizens have to decide because they want to keep their families safe but ultimately eventually they ought to revolt against the dictator and the means to do that is by breaking laws he/she has imposed on them. We, however, are not in a dictatorship. We are in a democracy (relatively speaking). The vast majority of laws are not dictatorial and the people have a lot of sway, perhaps not as much as we ought to because of various undue influences, but for the most part it's a fair system.

Some laws in a representative democracy are simply going to be controversial. The way citizens ought to act most of the time in such cases is to follow the law. So, if some conservative kook thinks that the "death tax" is unfair, they shouldn't not be paying it. They ought to ensure the law is followed. BUT, they ought to continue to make arguments and continue to be politically active against what they perceive as the highest priority laws they think are unfair. Call representative. Political ads, campaigns, protests. Discussions. Advocacy. ETC.

So I think in a representative democracy, this is the default position: one ought to follow the laws and where there is a disagreement, there ought to be political activism, even if it's just voting for the "right" people. But as with anything, maybe there are some exceptions, such as life and death situations. Prostitutes who may need work can generally speaking be unemployed or on welfare, but conservatives have limited those options. So, perhaps, there are some cases of some few street prostitutes who do this to survive. IMO, that's their prerogative. So, in my opinion that's an exception.

I am just not seeing the same level of argument here for Derec and BackPage, nor to call a representative democracy Fascists. I mean, one thing we heard is that Ugly Men if they don't have prostitutes are at-risk to commit offenses against women. It wasn't stated like that, more like the probability of rape goes up without prostitution, but it's actually what it means. So, when I hear that I cringe because it is telling me there are individuals who have some kind of entitlement to break the law already and if you don't give them what they want, they will break the law even more and hurt people. The root of the problem is the lack of empathy and sense of entitlement, not the restriction of a "service." So, what if women just all together one day stopped needing to be prostitutes and there were NONE. By the premises used in this scenarios already, it means some of these individuals would resort to rape. They clearly need some kind of mental rehabilitation, like to learn that empathy and be less entitled, then, and that's the conclusion.

They deserve little sympathy. Likewise, for persons making a business that has made $500 million by knowingly being involved in child/teen prostitution...and that means BackPage. BackPage is hardly a victim, I mean literally "hardly" because maybe they are very slightly. But since they were engaging in such practices, thumbing their noses at representative democracy, feeling entitled to not only engage in supporting prostitution, but also CHILD/TEEN prostitution, it is completely unfair to classify everyone else who thinks they ought to have consequences as Fascists.

Now the only real other issue here is whether two consenting adults who are both making well-thought-out, rational decisions (i.e. one is not addicted to drugs or on crack etc) ought to be able to engage in a financial transaction for sex. I think the answer is probably yes, but there's a big discussion for it because of all the side issues to include empirical studies and so forth. Keeping in mind that right now it's not legal and both Derec and BackPage ought to be following the laws of the land, generally speaking.

ETA: I will add one side issue. That is the issue of ex post facto. In the case of BackPage, I think they're guilty of heinous offenses of breaking the law and ought to have some consequences. Somehow a new law is being used as part of this. I don't think the new law ought to be used for crimes committed a year ago and more and I think that laws already existing are enough for convicting them on at least some of the charges. I do not think that laws ought to back-apply, even if the law itself is not about a criminal offense but how to handle them. I take a pretty broad approach to how I think the principle of ex post facto ought to be applied to rights, even of criminals.

Besides all that, even if prostitution were legal, Tom, child sex trafficking and money laundering to cover it would still be illegal. And, of course, there would still be some illegal prostitution where regulations are not followed, like condom use, sanitary, healthy conditions, age restrictions, whatever. There'd also be black markets that get normally unemployed persons the ability to turn quick tricks for cheap cash for illegal drugs such as crack and heroine because those persons wouldn't want income on record and wouldn't be able to hold down a steady job and be a reliable "employee." All unreported. Likewise, we would still hear how that is violating freedom to force them to follow regulations from some. And a lot of those crack heads who are slaves to their addictions probably also used BackPage and would want something like that even if prostitution were legal because in those cases their prostitution would not be following laws and regulations. They'd want a space such as on the Internet to get hookups, or RATHER their handlers would, like their pimps controlling the money and keeping them in them in the hotel rooms. And for all I know such slaves to their drug addictions have relations with Derec.

The point being that when the whole system is generally fair, no reason to revolt, and the country is close enough, and cost benefit isn't about survival, one should follow the laws, including the financial regulations about taxes and declaring income.
 
Toni said:
I don't find the stats that credible myself.

You have based your irrelevant argument on data you don't find credible? What do you expect us to say to that?
 
Last edited:
Toni said:
I don't find the stats that credible myself.

You have based your irrelevant argument on data you don't find credible? What do you expect us to say to that?

I don’t see how my arguments, using a data source I suspect you used, are any less relevant than whatever you are using to make your arguments. At least I back up what I write. You rely on insults and nasty personal remarks.
 
I don’t see how my arguments, using a data source I suspect you used, are any less relevant than whatever you are using to make your arguments. At least I back up what I write. You rely on insults and nasty personal remarks.

Why do you suspect I used a random data source that I've never heard of and that you googled and made claims on despite yourself questioning its credibility? That is backing up what you write? And do you realize that you only did so based on a straw man, sorry *ahem* strawperson, you've assigned to me? As for me backing up what I write, what claims are you looking at me to back up? And I mean actual claims and not straw people you've assigned to me. I didn't say that all or even most prostitutes make a fortune at the job. I said that many make a lot of money (I've met some of them personally), that they make more than they could otherwise make given their skills and education (otherwise why choose this job? Or do you think they do it because they enjoy it?), that the market is better for women doing this than men doing it (creating a position of relative privilege in having the option; which can be seen in the sales numbers for porn, numbers of backpage adds, etc), and that you've presented no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to do this work if they so choose (I and others have pointed out the glaring flaws in the earlier study you posted; to which you have not responded).

I pointed to the Supreme Court of Canada decision and the research that we put into bringing that case. I was part of it and interviewed many sex workers. Derec is a customer of some sex workers, so he can probably hear directly from them and report back to you if you ask him to. The Rhode Island case has been discussed as well. That's not wonderful evidence, but its better than some random "data" you yourself don't believe.

What insults and nasty personal remarks have I made towards you? Using your name? Pointing out the glaring flaws and hypocrisy and projection in what you've written? Do you really not see your own projection in this thread, calling people you disagree with misogynists and accusing them of not caring about sex trafficked women? Complaining to bilby that he's telling you what is in your head, while telling him what is in his head? Both Tom and I tried to mirror it for you. Are you really still blind to it? Laughing Dog is clearly trolling so I've put him back on ignore, but I'm really not confident that you are. So what gives?
 
Jolly, I suspected you found the same data site that I did because you came up with a similar or maybe the same figure for average annual earnings for prostitutes that my link contained. I did a little math and came up with the likely number of tricks that hypothetical prostitute would have to do using the same average charge per trick and then the equally unlikely average of $300/trick. It doesn’t seem likely to me that the average prostitute earns $215K/year. Some of the other figures are in line with what I’ve read in various sources, most of which seem to agree that the average age that a female prostitute begins to turn tricks is 15. Most of the interviews I’ve read by prostitutes say that 90-95% of all prostitutes were sexually abused as children. The linked site suggests 75%. If I go by the people I know, it is 100% (these are people I knew from grade school). I realize that sample pool is quite small but nonetheless, I am in a position to know as much as one can know without actually being the victim or the perpetrator. It’s a shame that you are unwilling or unable to consider that your sample pool of prostitutes you interviewed is also quite small or to consider whether everything they told you was factual. One thing I think you might consider is whether owning expensive jewelry is evidence of a high income. Sure, I’d need to be richer than I will ever be to lay down thousands of dollars for earrings but then I have a mortgage and utilities and a retirement to fund... Also, if you’ve never bought expensive jewelry before, sticker price is for suckers..
 
Jolly, I suspected you found the same data site that I did because you came up with a similar or maybe the same figure for average annual earnings for prostitutes that my link contained. I did a little math and came up with the likely number of tricks that hypothetical prostitute would have to do using the same average charge per trick and then the equally unlikely average of $300/trick. It doesn’t seem likely to me that the average prostitute earns $215K/year. Some of the other figures are in line with what I’ve read in various sources, most of which seem to agree that the average age that a female prostitute begins to turn tricks is 15. Most of the interviews I’ve read by prostitutes say that 90-95% of all prostitutes were sexually abused as children. The linked site suggests 75%. If I go by the people I know, it is 100% (these are people I knew from grade school). I realize that sample pool is quite small but nonetheless, I am in a position to know as much as one can know without actually being the victim or the perpetrator. It’s a shame that you are unwilling or unable to consider that your sample pool of prostitutes you interviewed is also quite small or to consider whether everything they told you was factual. One thing I think you might consider is whether owning expensive jewelry is evidence of a high income. Sure, I’d need to be richer than I will ever be to lay down thousands of dollars for earrings but then I have a mortgage and utilities and a retirement to fund... Also, if you’ve never bought expensive jewelry before, sticker price is for suckers..
. The idea that anyone has an reliable estimate of the earnings of prostitutes where prostitution is illegal is laughable, given all of the disincentives to be transparent and the difficulties in teasing out the earnings net of reasonable business costs from the earnings data. The notion that male prostitutes cannot earn as much as female prostitutes is based on a number of untested assumptions about the different markets. Any issues with trafficking data are similar to the issues with the reporting of crimes data for prostitutes, yet one set of data is dismissed while the other is touted as gospel. Add in that despite the appeals to freedom to do with their body what they wish, JP and a few other proponents of legalized prostitution want it regulated to require regular health testing - which has nothing to do with the freedom to do with one's body but everything to do with protecting the customer. It is obvious that the case for legalizing prostitution is not as clearcut as many (not all) of these advocates for sex workers believe. Yet, point that out, and one is immediately branded as a troll or not caring about the welfare of sex workers. All in all, that indicates you are wasting your time with JP - he is either trolling or incapable of understanding a fact-based argument or reason that contradicts his unthinking ideology or his feelings. However, remember that since I am, after all, clearly "trolling", my observations must be invalid.
 
Back
Top Bottom