#BLMers now demanding that white people give up our homes!

[laughing dog]

Irrelevant. You have no right to kvetch about people moving legally into your street, your neighbourhood, or your town. The people moving in have every right to be there.

People have the right to express their opinions. In fact, you have no right to deny them that or to even claim they do not.

You kvetch when people legally express opinions that differ from your opinions. Those people have every right to their opinions. Do you have the right to kvetch about them?

 

[Metaphor]

Irrelevant. You have no right to kvetch about people moving legally into your street, your neighbourhood, or your town. The people moving in have every right to be there.

People have the right to express their opinions. In fact, you have no right to deny them that or to even claim they do not.

You kvetch when people legally express opinions that differ from your opinions. Those people have every right to their opinions. Do you have the right to kvetch about them?

Of course, people have the legal right to speak and type what they want (though with how cravenly the West has capitulated to the anti-free-speech forces that right will become more curtailed than it currently is).

I'm saying that Toni has no case and is a moral hypocrite. If black people moved into an ostensibly 'white' neighbourhood, and white people kvetched about it the way Toni kvetches about white people moving into ostensibly 'black' neighbourhoods, she'd call the white kvetchers racist.

These black people, they bring their weird tastes with them. Soon there will be beauty shops and convenience stores as far as the eye can see.

 

[laughing dog]

Of course, people have the legal right to speak and type what they want (though with how cravenly the West has capitulated to the anti-free-speech forces that right will become more curtailed than it currently is).

I'm saying that Toni has no case and is a moral hypocrite. If black people moved into an ostensibly 'white' neighbourhood, and white people kvetched about it the way Toni kvetches about white people moving into ostensibly 'black' neighbourhoods, she'd call the white kvetchers racist.

Of course Toni has a case. It is one you disagree with. Plenty of people decry the changing nature of the neighborhood -it’s called nostalgia (a very human trait). There is a distinction between whether something is legally or morally right and whether it is desirable or good.

Let me get this straight, if black people gentrified poor white neighborhoods and white people complained about it, you conjecture Toni would call the white kvetchers racist. And you base your assessment of moral hypocrisy on your conjecture. Truly impressive.

These black people, they bring their weird tastes with them. Soon there will be beauty shops and convenience stores as far as the eye can see.

That bigoted imputation reveals more about you than Toni.

 

[Derec]

Of course Toni has a case.

She really doesn't.

Plenty of people decry the changing nature of the neighborhood -it’s called nostalgia (a very human trait).

That is not a case against gentrification.

Let me get this straight, if black people gentrified poor white neighborhoods and white people complained about it, you conjecture Toni would call the white kvetchers racist. And you base your assessment of moral hypocrisy on your conjecture. Truly impressive.

Not much of a conjecture. Toni explicitly called white people who didn't want blacks in "their" neighborhood racist. And yet she is oblivious that her position against white people moving into "black" neighborhoods is the same!

That bigoted imputation reveals more about you than Toni.

This was basically just a summation of Toni's anti-gentrification argument. I am surprised you think Toni is bigoted.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

These black people, they bring their weird tastes with them. Soon there will be beauty shops and convenience stores as far as the eye can see.

That bigoted imputation reveals more about you than Toni.

What bigoted imputation? Have you interpreted that Metaphor was actually claiming that those black people bring weird tastes, etc. with them?

ETA: I see Derec beat me to it.

 

[laughing dog]

She really doesn't.

That is not a case against gentrification.

Of course it is a case.

Not much of a conjecture. Toni explicitly called white people who didn't want blacks in "their" neighborhood racist. And yet she is oblivious that her position against white people moving into "black" neighborhoods is the same!

It is not the same.

This was basically just a summation of Toni's anti-gentrification argument. I am surprised you think Toni is bigoted.

It was a dishonest parapharse.

 

[Derec]

No, I recognize quite well the power of marketing and the feelings of inadequacy by the working class people in my town.

So now it's about "working class" people? Why did you make it about race?

I was at meetings where Walmart was making lots of pretty promises. Guess where most of the crime in my town happens? Keep in mind that it's a college town and a working class town, so there are LOTS of bars. Yet most of the arrests for petty crime and possession of (fill in the blank) and shoplifting and the like happen at Walmart.

I guess the shoplifters are shoplifting there because, to paraphrase (possibly apocryphal) Willie Sutton, that's where the stuff is. But it could be that Walmart is more aggressive in arresting and prosecuting the miscreants, so it shows up more in crime stats. Kind of like how you will have more COVID cases where you test more all things being equal.

3 of my favorite local businesses folded because of Walmart. I have fewer choices because of Walmart. Walmart won't donate anything to local schools or other organizations.

Reminds me of the South Park Walmart episode - in the end the mom-and-pop store became too popular and became ersatz-Walmart. But I fail to see what Walmart, a rather downmarket chain, has to do with gentrification. There are some rather sketchy neighborhoods in the ATL that have a Walmart, as do middle-class ones, but upper-middle to upper-crust neighborhoods do not as far as I know.

All the profits go to Bentonville.

Profits go to the owner. Walmart is a publicly traded company, so profits go everywhere, including to me and (probably) you.

New people from out of town/out of the neighborhood, especially if they are looking for a bargain with charm, that they can improve and make their own, buy properties and turn them into mcmansions and lead the drive to make the neighborhood look like the one they left.

McMansions are more the province of new developments, not infill building.

They come in and do not value the mom and pop stores, the local Chinese grocers or the bodegas.

How do you know that?

More people come and they displace families that used to live there.

What is your idea here, honestly? Should we implement Levitical Law that "land shall not be sold in perpetuity"? Or what?

As they improve properties--install new kitchens, etc.

We gotta install microwave ovens
Custom kitchen deliveries

These blue eyed devils and their insidious kitchen purchases, providing employment for those making and installing them. Truly monstrous!

with fancy stuff, their property values go up--and so do their neighbors.

LMAO! First you accuse the white getrifiers of loving Walmart, now they are all "fancy".
Your misplaced indignation kinda reminds me of Mr. Bookman.

Development is happening near by and he expects that by this time next year, he won't be able to afford his apartment or the town where he lives, which has a genuine downtown, some nice parks and some decent shopping, and all the amenities he wants--within close driving distance to his work and also to a major city.

But that's supply and demand. Do you want to artificially restrict who can move into a neighborhood?

People need and deserve stability. It's rough having yourself priced out of your family business, your family home. Especially by absentee landlords and developers who give a fuck all for anything other than their profits.

Stability over decades, which is what you seek, is stagnation.

 

[Derec]

Of course it is a case.

Of course it's not. Nostalgia is not a reason to be against gentrification.

It is not the same.

What's the difference, except "white people are bad m'kay!"?

It was a dishonest parapharse.

Wrong. The parapharse[sic] is right on the money.

 

[Derec]

White people move into China town and want more Starbucks and Whole foods.

A Starbucks moving into Chinatown would not be a bad thing at all. Even the "indigenous" residents would like coffee drinks I am sure.
You have some silly prejudices about white people though.

That said, Starbucks is definitely correlated with how well neighborhoods are doing. There are no Starbuckses in the hood, and not because only white people like Starbucks.

Again, depends on what you think of as 'fixing up places' and 'driving out crime.'

Take a wild guess!

How about cranky old white bigots stay out of large cities. Personally, I've lived/worked in a couple. My kids do now. They are not run by gangs. Jeeze, Loren. Sometimes I think you have never gone anywhere or done anything for the past 40 years.

Certain parts of large cities are definitely run by gangs.

 

[Derec]

No derec, it wasn’t that. J842P is closer to the mark. The problem was really bad, and went global, because of dishonest trading in subsequently packaged commodities that those trading already knew were worthless, partly because of the mortgage component.

I do not disagree with J842P that the collateralized debt obligation did not play a major role in the 2008 crisis. But my point is that had the debt not been bad, i.e. had not so many people defaulted on their mortgages, the crisis would not have happened to the extent it did. And fewer people would have defaulted had mortgages not been given to people who really had no business owning real estate rather than renting.

Also, there were some shady practices going on when the mortgages themselves were first sold. There is evidence that for example black purchasers were directed to unnecessarily expensive products (because this earned the mortgage advisors higher fees).

[citation needed]

The whole thing was way under-regulated for starters, and is an indictment of unregulated free marketeering.

Under-regulated in some areas, over-regulated in others, in particular pressure to approve more mortgages for more people.

 

[Toni]

Irrelevant. You have no right to kvetch about people moving legally into your street, your neighbourhood, or your town. The people moving in have every right to be there.

People have the right to express their opinions. In fact, you have no right to deny them that or to even claim they do not.

You kvetch when people legally express opinions that differ from your opinions. Those people have every right to their opinions. Do you have the right to kvetch about them?

Of course, people have the legal right to speak and type what they want (though with how cravenly the West has capitulated to the anti-free-speech forces that right will become more curtailed than it currently is).

I'm saying that Toni has no case and is a moral hypocrite. If black people moved into an ostensibly 'white' neighbourhood, and white people kvetched about it the way Toni kvetches about white people moving into ostensibly 'black' neighbourhoods, she'd call the white kvetchers racist.

These black people, they bring their weird tastes with them. Soon there will be beauty shops and convenience stores as far as the eye can see.

What ignorant ramblings.

My mostly white county has been largely gentrified. By other white people. It's mostly strip malls and beauty shops and car lots and oh, an Amazon fulfillment center now. Still mostly white people. Some of them apparently have some serious money given the mcmansions that stud the landscape. Or pretensions of money. Nothing more of real value, except that the school I graduated from is better funded now. That's really a good thing. The rest? Not so much.

Of course almost all of the newcomers were coming to the county where I was born to escape.....black people.

 

[Derec]

Good neighborhoods have chains because they're willing to operate there. Bad neighborhoods have whatever businesses haven't failed yet, most chains aren't interested in moving in because of crime problems. Those small businesses die when the neighborhood improves because they aren't competitive.

That really depends, as I said. There are chains in bad neighborhoods too, but they tend to be different type of chains.
And trendy neighborhoods do favor local, one-off restaurants and cafes. But for things like grocery store, there is not much utility in non-chain stores, so you are right there, if Publix sees a profit opportunity, they will move in.

 

[Toni]

A Starbucks moving into Chinatown would not be a bad thing at all. Even the "indigenous" residents would like coffee drinks I am sure.

I'm almost certain that Chinese people can and do make and serve coffee. Even more so if you consider Chinese Americans.

You have some silly prejudices about white people though.

Yeah, you do.

That said, Starbucks is definitely correlated with how well neighborhoods are doing. There are no Starbuckses in the hood, and not because only white people like Starbucks.

Some places have ordinances to keep out chains. In my town, there are a couple of Starbucks. They add....nothing to the retail mix which already has a couple of very local (this town only) 'chains.' And at least one other coffee/sandwich shop that does not have any satellites. The benefit of these independents is that they make/serve better products and the money stays local.

How about cranky old white bigots stay out of large cities. Personally, I've lived/worked in a couple. My kids do now. They are not run by gangs. Jeeze, Loren. Sometimes I think you have never gone anywhere or done anything for the past 40 years.

Certain parts of large cities are definitely run by gangs.

I don't think the Italian or Irish or even Russian mafias are that active anymore.

 

[Emily Lake]

Keyword here: moderation. What I am proposing is a legal moderation to capitalism re: ownership.

How do you envision that a society without ownership would function? How do you see people interacting? Can you describe some common every-day occurrences like getting food to eat and clothing to wear and a place to shelter?

 

[Derec]

I'm almost certain that Chinese people can and do make and serve coffee. Even more so if you consider Chinese Americans.

Did I say they can't? But they still like to go to Starbucks too, so I do not see why they would be opposed to a Starbucks in Chinatown.
Starbucks is not a sole province of white people, you know.

Yeah, you do.

What are you, in Kindergarten?

Some places have ordinances to keep out chains. In my town, there are a couple of Starbucks.

Not an issue here in Atlanta where it's one part of city of Atlanta vs. another or one part of unincorporated DeKalb County vs another.

They add....nothing to the retail mix which already has a couple of very local (this town only) 'chains.' And at least one other coffee/sandwich shop that does not have any satellites. The benefit of these independents is that they make/serve better products and the money stays local.

True, but bad neighborhoods do not have nice coffee and sandwich either. It's nice neighborhoods where you can find both Starbucks and, say, B Side Cafe which is in downtown Decatur. Nice neighborhoods have a mix of chains and local offerings.

I don't think the Italian or Irish or even Russian mafias are that active anymore.

Bloods, Crips and MS-13 are very active though. I think Russians are still pretty active in places with high Russian population, as are Albanians and the like.

 

[Derec]

Keyword here: moderation. What I am proposing is a legal moderation to capitalism re: ownership.

How do you envision that a society without ownership would function? How do you see people interacting? Can you describe some common every-day occurrences like getting food to eat and clothing to wear and a place to shelter?

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Derec]

My mostly white county has been largely gentrified. By other white people. It's mostly strip malls and beauty shops and car lots and oh, an Amazon fulfillment center now. Still mostly white people. Some of them apparently have some serious money given the mcmansions that stud the landscape. Or pretensions of money. Nothing more of real value, except that the school I graduated from is better funded now. That's really a good thing. The rest? Not so much.

Of course almost all of the newcomers were coming to the county where I was born to escape.....black people.

I think you have some weird ideas about what gentrification is. I can think of a few examples of Atlanta neighborhoods that have gentrified while I was here. One is Kirkwood (Hosea Williams and Howard). Used to be hood. Now it's a nice neighborhood with mostly local restaurants, a butcher shop and a non-Starbucks local coffee shop. Sure there are some chains like Subway too, but where there was a Mrs. Winners (chain staple of the Atlanta hood, the Glenwood Rd. location was even used to shoot the robbery scene to open the second season of the TV show Atlanta) there is now a non-chain Mexican place.

McMansions is not what I associate with gentrified neighborhoods. That is more in newly developed outer suburban/exurban neighborhoods.

 

[Derec]

[horribly misspelled note]

Looks made up.

 

[Derec]

In my town, which is well over 90 percent white, we have chains like Walmart and Starbucks and Family Dollar--and lost a lot of nice local stores, like the hardware store where you could purchase just one screw to replace the one that was missing instead of a whole package.

Is that really such an advantage? Buy a small baggie, then you have spares. That said, there is a semi-chain (stores owned by local franchisees) of smaller (than Home Depot/Lowes) hardware stores called ACE where I think you still can buy loose fasteners.

The difference is that black people moving into a town or a neighborhood doesn't cause property taxes to go up so that the people already living there can no longer afford their homes.

A well-to-do black person moving into a depressed neighborhood and fixing up a house they bought will bring up the property prices just as much as a white person doing the same. Your racial prejudices notwithstanding.

Look at all the cities with a giant tech explosion: Lots of neighborhoods are being dramatically changed as long time residents can no longer afford the homes they've lived in for 20 years or more--and nothing affordable is near by.

But the upside is that they can sell at incredible profit.
And tech workers are hardly all white.

Do you ever get out of Atlanta? There are neighborhoods and individual homes that look like that everywhere.

Did I say boarded-up houses are unique to Atlanta? Way to miss the point! Which was that this neighborhood (The Bluff) has a high share of such houses, not to mention crime, and could use some improving.