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Books as a thing people do

rousseau

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This thread may have a short shelf life, but we might get some interesting posts out of it so here goes..

I bought a four volume world history from the 19th century recently, and it got me thinking about books as past-time, point of study, thing people do etc. Today people largely take them for granted, but before the twentieth century books were one of few ways to know about the world and actually gather interesting information. You'd be home, reading from a set of books under oil-lamp, or candle-light - you can't just Google.

A few short, thoughts:

- The invent of the printing press made books absolutely ubiquitous compared the period before the press. Now books are a common, mundane part of our lives, but it wasn't always this way. Many professional positions are largely possible due to their existence

- Do people read less now? Do people buy fewer books now than in the past? It seems like they have stiffer competition, but I wonder what the stats say

- Why, with so much information readily available today, even outside of books / on the internet, are so few of us interested in that information?

- Before the invent of the printing press, which types of information predominated? What kind of information did people want to save for posterity?

I may take a stab at some of these questions, but I'll leave this thread here for now.
 
- Before the invent of the printing press, which types of information predominated? What kind of information did people want to save for posterity?


Ancient literature comprises religious and scientific documents, tales, poetry and plays, royal edicts and declarations, and other forms of writing that were recorded on a variety of media, including stone, stone tablets, papyri, palm leaves, and metal. Before the spread of writing, oral literature did not always survive well, but some texts and fragments have persisted. One can conclude that an unknown number of written works too have likely not survived the ravages of time and are therefore lost. August Nitschke sees some fairy tales as literary survivals dating back to Ice Age and Stone Age narrators.

I'd argue that religious and scientific documents are cut from the same cloth, both being investigations of reality. The rest sounds like a combination of entertainment and legislative reasons. So pretty much the same as now, but you'd likely have a greater focus on the very most important information.
 
- Do people read less now? Do people buy fewer books now than in the past? It seems like they have stiffer competition, but I wonder what the stats say


From a historical perspective, literacy levels for the world population have risen drastically in the last couple of centuries. While only 12% of the people in the world could read and write in 1820, today the share has reversed: only 14% of the world population, in 2016, remained illiterate. Over the last 65 years the global literacy rate increased by 4% every 5 years – from 42% in 1960 to 86% in 2015.1

Despite large improvements in the expansion of basic education, and the continuous reduction of education inequalities, there are substantial challenges ahead. The poorest countries in the world, where basic education is most likely to be a binding constraint for development, still have very large segments of the population who are illiterate. In Niger, for example, the literacy rate of the youth (15-24 years) is only 36.5%.

This doesn't directly answer the question, but it does imply that in their early days books were more of an activity undertaken by the elite / educated. So likely, books have more competition, but also more people can actually read now.
 
When I was a kid the library was an important place.

I am old enough to remember door to door salesmen selling encyclopedias. Sign up and you got one a month. Books of national maps. If you needed more info you want to the library.

I agree people may not realize the value of books. Jefferson prized his book collection and had to sell it when he had hard times.

People saved money to by books.

The accumulated knowledge and history in a large commercial bookstore is phenomenal. If you want to educate yourself it is all there in low cost paperbacks.

Up until I got sick and had eye problems I'd walk through a bookstore and buy a few random books.
 
We now seem to be witnessing the first generation who's never known life without the internet come of age, and most studies point to an increase in mental health issues / diminished ability to be alone and quietly reflect. It's all devices, all the time.

That's not a critique, I think a lot of young people are victims of the social media age.

The corollary of that, is that few of these people have developed the ability to slowly, quietly reflect, to immerse themselves in serious study and activity. IOW, so many today are so immersed in the digital world that they never find time for books. Social media gives them a constant and persistent ability to feel connected, so they never develop other skills or experience solitude.

It's quite the paradox that information is so readily available now, but we've become disconnected from the desire for information. For most of our history we were literally fighting for knowledge, now our communities seem to be built on the accumulation of that knowledge, and so we don't feel we need it anymore.
 
Back in the 70s I wod not have used decadent to descibe our soicety as some did.

Today the lost value of books is a facet of our decadent throw away disposable culture. Things have no long term value.
 
The number of people with an attention span sufficient to sit and read a book has declined dramatically over the last several decades. Many people once found reading books entertaining and enjoyable. Today it is more and more becoming short Youtube videos, Tik Tok, Twitter, etc. that can hold someone's attention for a few seconds or a couple minutes.
 
The number of people with an attention span sufficient to sit and read a book has declined dramatically over the last several decades. Many people once found reading books entertaining and enjoyable. Today it is more and more becoming short Youtube videos, Tik Tok, Twitter, etc. that can hold someone's attention for a few seconds or a couple minutes.

The way I see it reading books has become a major competitive advantage in today's economy. There is an astounding amount of useful information available if you're intentional about finding it, but most people just .. don't do that.
 
Back in the 70s I wod not have used decadent to descibe our soicety as some did.

Today the lost value of books is a facet of our decadent throw away disposable culture. Things have no long term value.

It seems like people have always been a bit materialistic to me, evidence abound throughout history. Today we have the material to go along with the materialism, so to speak.

But it's not all bad, my generation can sometimes be more socially aware than we were in the past. Low attention spans, but good info does seep into social media from time to time.
 
That's a good point. Computers,video games, 24/7 TV, and the net have reduced attention span.

I found an old math puzzle book from the early 1900s. Average people did math for fun. Logic puzzle books and crossword puzzle books.


My father was a high school dropout, yet I grew up reading for whatever reason.

For me Monopoly and Srcabble were mainstays growing up.
 
That's a good point. Computers,video games, 24/7 TV, and the net have reduced attention span.
Are you sure? Or were attention spans always highly variable, but mostly short, with few people having any free time to spend on entertainment anyway?

What you see as shorter attention spans is more plausibly explained as a wider pool of people who have the leisure to have anyone notice their attention spans.

The proportion of people who sit down and enjoy a long novel, as a percentage of people who have the time to do so if they chose, may not have changed one iota.

People enjoy brief entertainments because they have things to do. The idle rich enjoy long winded entertainments because they don’t have things to do.

Free time is a post-industrial novelty for all but a tiny number of aristocrats. And still most of what the workers get is doled out in very small chunks. It’s hardly surprising that most people don’t invest a lot of time in a single long session of constant attention for fun, when that level of attentiveness is demanded of them at work.

If anything, I suspect attention spans are getting longer.
 
I've been an avid reader my whole life. My Mom bought us an encyclopedia and I read it cover to cover. I didn't read ALL of our Webster's Fifth Collegiate Dictionary but I read all the appendices. I was usually bored in High School science classes, having already learned the material from books. :-(

My health is declining in old age and one of my regrets is that my bilateral monocular diplopia sometimes makes reading difficult. (I can read on computers by setting font-size to "Huge." The eye surgeon tells me the remedy involves sticking needles in my cornea! Too "icky" for me.)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The invention and widespread use of the printing press was a major turning point in history. Perhaps even more important was the invention of paper, prerequisite to printing and whose use in Europe accelerated only after Gutenberg. (Paper had been invented much earlier in China but the Chinese managed to keep the recipe secret for almost a thousand years.)

There were writings long before Gutenberg of course, and such writing was essential to the development of civilization. But what about pre-literate societies, some of which were able to preserve important information for centuries? Let me again plug Lynne Kelly's revolutionary work. e.g. her book The Memory Code.
 
That's a good point. Computers,video games, 24/7 TV, and the net have reduced attention span.
Are you sure? Or were attention spans always highly variable, but mostly short, with few people having any free time to spend on entertainment anyway?

What you see as shorter attention spans is more plausibly explained as a wider pool of people who have the leisure to have anyone notice their attention spans.

The proportion of people who sit down and enjoy a long novel, as a percentage of people who have the time to do so if they chose, may not have changed one iota.

People enjoy brief entertainments because they have things to do. The idle rich enjoy long winded entertainments because they don’t have things to do.

Free time is a post-industrial novelty for all but a tiny number of aristocrats. And still most of what the workers get is doled out in very small chunks. It’s hardly surprising that most people don’t invest a lot of time in a single long session of constant attention for fun, when that level of attentiveness is demanded of them at work.

If anything, I suspect attention spans are getting longer.

You raise some good points, but the internet is (and should be) a major factor in how many of us experience the world now. They don't call it the 'attention' economy for nothing, ubiquitous applications that are specifically designed to grab and keep our attention with an enormous amount of rapid blips and notifications.

Your argument likely holds true for people living in the 50s - 90s, but it's literally a different world now. It takes an act of enormous willpower to resist the internet, and it's been my observation that many in my (and future) generations don't have this willpower. I have a young sister-in-law born in 1994 and it's rare to see her without a smartphone in hand. My brother is a teacher of high-school students and the internet is a (very) serious problem for many of them. They don't know how to sit down and study.

I've seen studies that suggest our attention spans actually are decreasing, but I couldn't really speak to their validity so I won't bother linking them.
 
I've been an avid reader my whole life. My Mom bought us an encyclopedia and I read it cover to cover. I didn't read ALL of our Webster's Fifth Collegiate Dictionary but I read all the appendices. I was usually bored in High School science classes, having already learned the material from books. :-(

My health is declining in old age and one of my regrets is that my bilateral monocular diplopia sometimes makes reading difficult. (I can read on computers by setting font-size to "Huge." The eye surgeon tells me the remedy involves sticking needles in my cornea! Too "icky" for me.)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The invention and widespread use of the printing press was a major turning point in history. Perhaps even more important was the invention of paper, prerequisite to printing and whose use in Europe accelerated only after Gutenberg. (Paper had been invented much earlier in China but the Chinese managed to keep the recipe secret for almost a thousand years.)

There were writings long before Gutenberg of course, and such writing was essential to the development of civilization. But what about pre-literate societies, some of which were able to preserve important information for centuries? Let me again plug Lynne Kelly's revolutionary work. e.g. her book The Memory Code.

A number of years ago I read Elizabeth Eisenstein's The Printing Press as an Agent of Change. IIRC, she was the first person to really tackle the press as an object of study, rather than footnote.

It was a bit of a messy book, and she admitted that there were many questions left unanswered, but it was well worth the read. The one big point I took out of it was that books finally allowed people to make their own history intelligible. They could make sense of themselves and their communities in the context of greater spans of time.
 
This thread may have a short shelf life, but we might get some interesting posts out of it so here goes..

I bought a four volume world history from the 19th century recently, and it got me thinking about books as past-time, point of study, thing people do etc. Today people largely take them for granted, but before the twentieth century books were one of few ways to know about the world and actually gather interesting information. You'd be home, reading from a set of books under oil-lamp, or candle-light - you can't just Google.

A few short, thoughts:

- The invent of the printing press made books absolutely ubiquitous compared the period before the press. Now books are a common, mundane part of our lives, but it wasn't always this way. Many professional positions are largely possible due to their existence

- Do people read less now? Do people buy fewer books now than in the past? It seems like they have stiffer competition, but I wonder what the stats say

- Why, with so much information readily available today, even outside of books / on the internet, are so few of us interested in that information?

- Before the invent of the printing press, which types of information predominated? What kind of information did people want to save for posterity?

I may take a stab at some of these questions, but I'll leave this thread here for now.
Missed this thread when you first posted it, so I hope you don't mind my belatedly reviving it. It's an interesting topic though, and one that I think about often. I was born at exactly the right moment to witness the transition from the analog to the digital world, to the point of needing library card catalogs when I first started collegiate studies but needing to dust them off only every so often working at the library as a grad student, because they had by then become obsolete. I think we forget sometimes that the adoption of the internet was a thing which happened in stages, however quickly they cycled; some kinds of knowledge transferred faster than others. All things considered, I think we've benefited from the digitalization of books more than we've been harmed, and I say that despite being a concerted bibliophile. I love printed books as objects, but a lot of the flaws people complain about with respect to the internet - it's as easy to find bad information as good, or mask pretense as authority, or that it can radicalize ideological partisans- were also true of traditional books to a large degree. If anything has died that was worth saving, it was the idea of curated collections of books. Ultimately, a librarian or bookseller used to have the power to enact quality control over the collection if they had the time and education to know how to do it. But, what can you do? Others would call that censorship, and did, and still do. By democratizing knowledge, the internet book market was fulfilling an unmet demand, and any economist could have told you what was about to happen.

And in the end, are we truly behind? I remember what it was like when if you were curious about ocean sponges, you went to the library and borrowed their only book on sponges, which was written in 1958 by a committed genetics skeptic (inspired by a true story). You may come up with a lot of crazy stuff searching for sponge information on the internet, but you will eventually come up with a lot of information, and not be over-reliant on what happened to be locally available.

Do people read less books? I think so, but there are a lot of reasons for that. They may actually read more, if you count people's phone reading habits as reading in the aggregate rather than specifiying full books. But it's getting harder and harder for most people to sit down and read an entire paper book or newspaper, especially if they're young and wrapped up in the newly 24 hour labor market. Many have come to prefer audiobooks or podcasts, simply because they allow for multitasking. This is not quality reading, but I think it has probably increased access to information as a general rule.

I will always love printed books, and they will always be my favored form of both recreation and decoration. But I'm capable of looking back and seeing that their 1500 some years of nigh unquestioned social dominance had both pros and cons, just like any other technology. Codices themselves encouraged lazier reading than their predecessor technology the scroll, after all. It's always ups and downs, but if new technologies lacked utility altogether, collective decision-making would be sufficient to prevent their proliferation. I think printed books are retreating to a smaller corner of the world of information technology, not disappearing altogether. But if they were to disappear, it would be an indicator that replacement technologies had ultimately promised people more in terms of what they need in their historical moment.

You mention the period before the printing press, and one thing that I think is important to remember is that books (1) had to be actively recopied in order to survive the ravages of time, which (2) meant someone in authority needed to specifically sanction their survival, and (3) their odds were better if there were many copies in circulation when they first started to be distributed, a rarer circumstance in those days due to the labor invovled in production. People often make the mistake of supposing that the books and letters we have from antiquity are something like a random sample, when they are of course anything but. If we possess anything from before the previous millenium, the odds are very strong that it was at one time a "standard reference text" for a religious order of some kind, because there are precious few other reasons why something would have been preserved. Our earliest linguistic works are studies of the Vedas. Our earliest works of Western philosophy are the stepping stones on the well-ordered reading list of the late Roman era Neoplatonist pedagogue, which then became the standard reading of the Augustinian monk. A startlingly large amount of the Mediterranean science and mathematics ouvre rescued from the fall of Rome, we possess because mainly it caught the attention of Sufi scholars trying to synthesize Hellenistic falafsa with Semitic mysticism.

Printed books decay, too, of course. But the publication of thousands rather than dozens of copies of popular titles made it incredibly more likely that the contents of any particular book would survive over time. Another change that appeared not long after the printing press were the ancestral predecessors of copyright. The idea of an exclusive legal right to copy took a while to simmer (nearly three centuries) but from the second book production moved from the monastery to the private press, it gave companies an inherent interest in holding on to popular titles so they could reprint them if there was a market to do so, rather than because (for instance) just because the abbot thought it was a good idea. So the press was also democratizing.
 
Low attention spans and a limitless number of distractions probably reduce reading books.

I have heard it said Anne Frank and To kill A Mockingbird are still in primary education.

The amount of knowledge available in a bookstre across the spectrum in low cost paperbacks is stageering to me.

Jefferson's prized possession was his library, which he sold when he fell on hard times. Books used to have monetary value.

From recent reporting growing numbers of kids are being given high school diplomas reading at what used to be condensed grade school level.

Books are irrelevant if people only have functional literacy.

I was reading books at a young age. I did;t get it from parents, I got reading in grammar school. In the 50s 60sa public library I could walk ro was important. Asa kid it was an adventure. And the smell of the books.

When I got older I came to appreciate the primary education I got. 1-8 was in an old Catholic school building. No commuters, but I got good reading comprehension skills.

In one grade there was a box of stories on cards in increasing complexity. You started at one end, read a story, and took a test on it.

Topped off by high school. Summer reading was a requirement and a book report when school opened.
 
This thread may have a short shelf life, but we might get some interesting posts out of it so here goes..

I bought a four volume world history from the 19th century recently, and it got me thinking about books as past-time, point of study, thing people do etc. Today people largely take them for granted, but before the twentieth century books were one of few ways to know about the world and actually gather interesting information. You'd be home, reading from a set of books under oil-lamp, or candle-light - you can't just Google.

A few short, thoughts:

- The invent of the printing press made books absolutely ubiquitous compared the period before the press. Now books are a common, mundane part of our lives, but it wasn't always this way. Many professional positions are largely possible due to their existence

- Do people read less now? Do people buy fewer books now than in the past? It seems like they have stiffer competition, but I wonder what the stats say

- Why, with so much information readily available today, even outside of books / on the internet, are so few of us interested in that information?

- Before the invent of the printing press, which types of information predominated? What kind of information did people want to save for posterity?

I may take a stab at some of these questions, but I'll leave this thread here for now.
I will always love printed books, and they will always be my favored form of both recreation and decoration. But I'm capable of looking back and seeing that their 1500 some years of nigh unquestioned social dominance had both pros and cons, just like any other technology. Codices themselves encouraged lazier reading than their predecessor technology the scroll, after all. It's always ups and downs, but if new technologies lacked utility altogether, collective decision-making would be sufficient to prevent their proliferation. I think printed books are retreating to a smaller corner of the world of information technology, not disappearing altogether. But if they were to disappear, it would be an indicator that replacement technologies had ultimately promised people more in terms of what they need in their historical moment.

I'm with you on this. Thinking a little more about it, I wonder if the predominant use case of paper and e-books, at least in terms of knowledge acquisition, is to learn a narrow discipline for the purpose of making money. Once you've made it through school and have done a little self-study, you've already arrived at a comfortable life where more knowledge for the sake of knowledge is maybe not that relevant to your bottom line.

From that point on people who read .. a lot .. are likely those whose personality jives with the physical act of sitting down with a book. More toward the introverted side of the spectrum. In the past decade I've read hundreds of titles across a number of disciplines, and I am absolutely great at my job because of it. But I probably wouldn't be much worse off had I read none of them and just got the software diploma.

Then another part of it might be an awareness thing. A lot of us don't know that books can be relevant, and wouldn't know how to find them even if we did. Then there's the cost of books.
 
As I got older I found that being more well read outside of science and engineering improved the quality of my work. It improved my gneral skills.

Not te least of which was communicating with others especially outside my engineering bubble.

Without some knowledge of the world and histioy you are flying blind.
 
As I got older I found that being more well read outside of science and engineering improved the quality of my work. It improved my gneral skills.

Not te least of which was communicating with others especially outside my engineering bubble.

Without some knowledge of the world and histioy you are flying blind.

“I don’t want to say no book is ever worth reading, but I actually do believe something pretty close to that. … If you wrote a book, you f---ed up, and it should have been a six-paragraph blog post.”

According to The Washington Post, that last quote is from Sam Bankman-Fried, founder of FTX. Now that he's broke, I wonder if he wishes he'd read a little history. Probably not. You can't miss something you don't know exists.
 
I'm with you on this. Thinking a little more about it, I wonder if the predominant use case of paper and e-books, at least in terms of knowledge acquisition, is to learn a narrow discipline for the purpose of making money. Once you've made it through school and have done a little self-study, you've already arrived at a comfortable life where more knowledge for the sake of knowledge is maybe not that relevant to your bottom line.
That is certainly the ethic of our times, even on university boards and the like. I wish it were not, as I do regard knowledge as inherently valuable, and the private sector as being completely incompetent at assessing the value of knowledge, even situationally.

Speaking for my own discipline and its practical applications, if a company realizes even after the fact that they should perhaps have learned something about the culture of their customers, laborers, or business partners before starting a business venture with them, it's a small miracle. But there are a lot of voluntary fiascos out there that the perusal of a few books could conceivably have prevented.
 
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